Studies that link Autism to Vaccinations.

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First of all, that person actually would have known 20 years ago. It was because of the job he had over 20 years ago and his years of experience in that particular job that he was able to recognize my symptoms. It is true that 45 years ago I was missed because we did not have the awareness we have now. I agree with that and I understand that.

I have seen documentaries for example, that have proven a very highly elevated rate of Autistic children in the Somalian population which has migrated to Canada. This link to Autism was linked to a dramatic change in their diets which affected their gut flora and caused bacteria that attacked the brain. Once their diets were reverted back to the traditional Somalian diet the symptoms started to change and the Autism dramatically improved.

Another example is they found that kids that were given a certain steroid based antibacterial remedy for ear infections developed a similar gut flora issue producing brain attacking gut bacteria causing Autistic symptoms. They were also then given a formula to rebuild their intestinal flora and the symptoms started to diminish and even reverse.

I also know a couple of people personally who were affected and neurologically changed from contact with environmental pollutions. I have also seen documentaries of people who did develop Autistic symptoms from being exposed to chemical pollutants. Of course I did not catalog the references in anticipation of this thread so don't ask me to produce them. You are perfectly capable of doing the research yourself. And I know that awareness and diagnostic procedures have improved and have found a lot of people who would not have been found. But I still believe what I believe and nothing you can say will change that. And whether or not you believe in God or God's grace is up to you. If I believe that than that is up to me and I will continue to believe that as well no matter what anyone says.

Last edited by skibum on 03 Nov 2015, 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

This article explains why the gut theory is at best premature, and most probably wrong:
https://theconversation.com/can-a-gut-bacteria-imbalance-really-cause-autism-9128

Knowing a couple of people who were exposed to environmental stressors who then developed symptoms tells us nothing. You need to show a mechanism.

So you admit to not being amenable to actually looking at the evidence? You just believe what you want to believe? Seriously?

Let's play a thought game...

What if a reaction to vaccinations triggers the onset of autism in some small subset of statistical outliers (as some have argued)? And let's leave aside for the moment the ROI of 1% dead vs 1% with autism.

Assuming the reaction is not being caused by say, thimerserol/mercury or other additive (which would be trivial to weed out statistically given different bases, additives, etc.), it would most likely have to be caused by the immune system itself. Which means...said reaction would also occur with the actual disease, too. Fever damage, inflammation, etc., from a full blown case of illness however, could mask the cause. And what if those who died would've made up a good percent of those who also developed autism?

Point being, the statistical link hasn't been shown & a causation hasn't been shown. This leaves only exceedingly selfish people - sociopaths - using the issue as a way to garner donations and social influence, in my opinion. Note that I'm speaking only of the celebrities and self-made "experts", not their easily influenced prey. Again, just my opinion and it's one I'd happily change the moment true statistical & causal links are shown.

Now you're just being idiotic. You have no idea what evidence I have seen and not seen. I have seen plenty on both sides. I have read articles saying gut bacteria is probably wrong. I have read articles and seen documentary on both sides of the vaccination issue. I believe what I believe as a result of everything I have seen and read on both sides.

I personally believe that there is a genetic factor which causes Autism and that environmental factors can cause Autistic symptoms and traits as well as other neurological issues. And I believe that sometimes both are involved.

And no, I don't have to prove anything to you. The only thing I HAVE to do is be black and die. I don't understand why you are so agitated about someone having a different opinion than you on this issue anyway. I am not upset at you about believing that the massive explosive rise in Autism is due to awareness. I am not asking you to prove that, which you can't. I am just saying that I believe that there is much more to it than simply better awareness. You have the right to disagree and I respect your right to disagree but I am certainly not going to waste my time and effort in a pissing match with you.

Personal experience is not evidence. I'm not agitated by someone having a different opinion. I'm pissed off at someone else who thinks "my mate got exposed to mercury/whatever and then showed signs of autism" constitutes evidence.

As a parent, the one thing I have against the whole anti-vax movement - aside from the obvious: more sick kids due to non-vaxing - is the emotional torment such "theories" cause.

"Did I do this to my child? Did I cause this? Would my child be 'a whole different person' if I had never [done theory X/not done theory W] and did I take away whomever that person was from my child? Did I POISON my child?" and then the scramble of many parents to go crazy trying to "detox" their children, right down to chelation and more...I never went that route but I did obtain lot numbers from my son's doctor to find out whether Thimerosal had been utilized in any of his vaxes and the answer was no, they hadn't. That's just an aside. But..some parents do put their children through such things...in a mad scramble to "undo the damage" - all based on non scientifically-supported hysteria.

Taking kids to doctors, clipping their hair to send it to a lab or drawing blood, "detoxing" anyway regardless of non-mercury (or other heavy metals) findings, putting all sorts of other unproven and sometimes painful (diarrhea, meltdowns, and on and on and on) "natural" "cures" for "what Big Pharma is CHOOSING not to DX in your child," "Did I start all this too late? Should I go more aggressive?" - Questions on forums like, "I just started my child on 'X' to 'detox' him from previous vaxes. Since then he has insomnia and bloody stools. Is this okay?" and all the other parents going "Oh yeah, doctors won't tell you this because they're led by the nose by GREEDY BIG PHARMA, are you going to believe them? They're the ones who POISONED your kids! Believe us instead. Your son's "symptoms" of this brain-saving therapy we're describing all normal, just keep doing that to your kid for a month or two...or six...We swear to God it worked for our kid, are you going to be lazy and not try this and never have your kid end up 'normal'? Well, we suppose that's up to you, sigh..."

And if there's evidence against your kid having ingested or received 'poison X' (in this case, 'mercury' via vaxes) it's always "No, there's another reason you're missing" thing. My BIL's girlfriend (hate her) went on and on about how I was 'poisoning' my son and how I had already 'poisoned' him by breastfeeding, and my dental fillings from the 1970s leeching into my breastmilk and him ingesting them. When I told her I hadn't breastfed, she went on to say that in that case, obviously the "heavy metals" had leeched through the umbilical cord. If I had said he was adopted, would she have claimed my 40-year-old fillings had leeched into my adopted baby through my skin when I held him? There's always an answer that keeps some parents led by the nose, chasing clouds..."I must have overlooked this..." It's maddening, it can be painful for the child depending upon the "therapies," it can be very emotionally damaging to the child who feels "Mommy is always trying to 'fix' me, I must be broken," and it's hell on the parents, who wins?

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not science, it's a hysteria. Like people freaking out during the Middle Ages because the night air and "lack of exercise" "caused" the Black Death. Physicians everywhere had observed it, recorded it, "been able to repeat" the experiment by leaving windows open in subjects willing to risk their lives on a few coins and X percent got the plague so...night ethers and not exercising definitely caused the plague...right? Scientific correlation had been made, it must be real. Today, we realize how silly that sounds...but in the wake of hysteria it wasn't silly to the general population. At all.

Yeah. That's why some of us get up in arms about the whole "vaxes are autism-making poison" movement, and similar Poisoning Theory du Jour movements.

Last edited by NowhereWoman on 03 Nov 2015, 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I did not say that that one example constitutes scientific evidence. I was sharing different kinds of experiences I have had that contributed to shaping the thoughts and beliefs that I have. And I never once said that the people I know that had that kind of experience are the only things that have shaped my beliefs and understanding. And if you are so narrow minded in your thinking that you would actually think that I could consider the examples of what happened to my friends as scientific evidence equal to systematic studies and research documentation than I don't know what to say to you.

I know you asked me to state "evidence" for what I believe. I don't have a list of documentation in my head to produce on demand and I am not going to go research and provide one just because you want one from me. So I gave you a couple of examples that came off the top of my head just now that are examples of things that have helped shape my belief on this subject. And the fact that you can get so angry at as you quote, "someone else who thinks 'my mate got exposed to mercury/whatever and then showed signs of autism.'" Makes me think you need to lighten up. I could understand your anger at me for that if I was out there pushing the issue and trying to publish "studies" and pushing them on people trying to pass them off as science but I am not doing that. I am not campaigning my beliefs trying to persuade the masses and the Autism community and the medical community to accept them. In fact I have only this this conversation one other time and it was with a good friend over causal conversation in her living room. I just gave my personal opinion which I made very is my PERSONAL OPINION in an internet forum thread. So for you to be so incredibly agitated about it makes no sense to me at all.

Last edited by skibum on 03 Nov 2015, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is because I am sick to death of people pushing their irrational "personal opinions" without evidence. This does damage - the rise in preventable diseases because of the vaccines and autism fiasco being a case in point.

I am not Pushing anything. I have stated my personal opinion on an internet forum. I am not pushing my opinion on anyone and I never have. And my personal opinion is not irrational. It is far from irrational. Just because you don't agree with it does not make it irrational. And to think that my post stating my personal opinion about this matter on this forum is going to do any damage to anyone is what is irrational and ludicrous. It's just completely absurd.

You can't spread the wrong information, and then backtrack and say it's your "personal opinion". No, it's not your personal opinion. You're simply wrong. You're projecting your agitation onto other people.

I haven't seen any studies that show autism rates going down after childhood vaccines had thimerosal (mercury preservative) removed in 2001.

I also haven't seen any studies showing kids who are NOT vaccinated having fewer cases of autism than kids who were vaccinated.

Let me know if those studies exist.

Exactly.

But I'm sure a defending theory will pop up, the rest of the world is receiving "mercury" by osmosis due to alllllllll the mercury-poisoned vax kids in the world today or something.

The idea that autism might be caused by vaccinations was suggested in a research paper in Lancet in 1998 by Andrew Wakefield, a British surgeon. Subsequently it was shown that Wakefield had faked the data and the article was withdrawn. A newspaper suggested that he had a conflict of interest because of his attempts to develop a new test kit for autism based on his faked research. He sued the paper, then withdrew the suit. He was struck off the British Medical Register for "dishonesty and irresponsibility".
Because of Wakefield's actions, a movement against vaccination has lead to outbreaks of measles in Britain and the US resulting in disease, suffering and death for many children.
There is a good Wikipedia article on this sad saga.

It is my personal opinion and that was clearly stated from the very first post I wrote about the subject so there was no backtracking. If you read that post you would have seen that. The very first word in that post is PERSONALLY I..... That right there says it's my personal opinion. And the second paragraph starts with "I believe..." which also implies MY PERSONAL OPINION. Maybe you should learn to read. And I don't believe that what I believe is wrong information. And that one statement on an internet forum does not constitute spreading wrong information. If you believe that than fine, believe it. I am not going to sit there and argue with you about what you believe and don't believe. I can respect that you believe something different from what I believe. You have every right to think that what I believe is wrong. But I have read articles and seen documentaries and looked into it and I have formed my beliefs accordingly. And if I am wrong than so be it. And I am not projecting my agitation on anyone.

I have believed what I believe for a long time. In fact when I first started learning about Autism I was convinced that there was no link to vaccinations and I actually told the two people that I had that conversation with that I believed that when they asked me about it. But now after I have read more and learned more what I said in my first post, if you bothered to read it, was that I personally would not go so far as to say that vaccines and environmental factors have not influenced the rise in Autism cases. I know it's not a direct quote but it's close enough. If you guys really believe that that is equivalent to pushing my "unsubstantiated opinions" on people as scientific evidence and damaging the masses than, seriously, the problem in this case is with you.

What is really starting to piss me off, well not really but it might if this stupid argument keeps up, is that you can take that first post I wrote and constitute it as spreading wrong information and damaging the masses as if I were on some active global campaign with it and touting as indisputable and absolute scientific evidence. That is just crazy.

Skibum: if you think that your "opinion" formed from watching documentaries and reading articles on the internet is as valid as peer-reviewed research, then the problem lies with you. It's not an unusual problem, but it certainly is one.

My opinion is my opinion and it does not matter what my opinion is or how it was formed. The only problem with this conversation is that you need me to change my opinion.