I have a question to ask autistic people

Post Reply New Topic

^

Very good point. The autistic journey is full of surprises; nothing is totally fixed.

Yes. There's a difference between empathy and understanding what is going on. Empathy is a feeling in your body that something is wrong when you see someone else hurt, and that something is good and right when you see someone else happy. It means that your emotions to some degree change when you see other people hurt or happy.

But autism often has us not paying attention to other people. Or we might be paying very close attention but in a different way. Yesterday, I noticed I was paying attention to people's eyebrows exclusively. Most people would have been looking at someone's whole face, not just the eyebrow.

So, if you are paying attention to something different, you might miss that someone is hurt. You wouldn't act emphatically, but that's not because you lack empathy. Its because you didn't notice they were hurt. Over the years, you don't practice responding to people when they are hurt like NT kids because its so rare that you notice. By the time you are an adult, you end up seeming very immature in how you respond to people who are hurt. But that's just a lack of practice. Its not lack of empathy. It just looks like it sometimes. When you see that someone is hurt, you still respond with empathy. You still feel uncomfortable when someone else you care about is hurt.

As another poster said, you keep learning. And as you get older, you might find that you notice other people more, and you gain more practice in ACTING empathic. And then people will know that you are feeling empathy.

^

I agree. As I said in an earlier post, it's not a question of not feeling empathy, but of how it's expressed outwardly. And it's that lack of external expression, what you describe as 'acting', that so often masks what people with AS are experiencing emotionally.

I found it also interesting that you guys figured from what I said or who I am that I’m in Italy and also how to say hi to me, or whatever – this is actually ALREADY pretty empathetic as so many people are so much thinking about THEMSELVES and how they sound or come across, that they forget to notice any details about the other. Interesting, and nice

Thanks so much for your replies! So interesting, and really confirming a lot of stuff I also feel is true for my son, Spooky connections with animals, attention to detail and to certain important things, really deep empathy for those he loves but combined with a tendency to find the feelings overwhelming (we alternate people and animal time, that’s really important, and not be forced to spend a lot of times in large groups.. I get the feeling it’s just too darned much for him to process, and he starts shutting down to avoid overload.

Hyperborean, thanks for your encouraging and supportive words (and I love your quotations).
Whatamievendoing, thanks for your insight!

BirdinFlight, this was so interesting and a beautiful story about your progression and developing patterns of feeling empathy. I found this so interesting about you feeling somehow separated but also certainly feeling empathy. Could it possibly be that this is the feeling of it being too much, simply overwhelming, to the point the psyche knows it cannot handle the overload and brings up a wall to protect itself from harm? Especially in youth as one learns through life how to handle the more painful and difficult emotions. While not autistic, I was a chronic daydreamer, people often called me space cadet, and asked if I was ‘orbiting’, i.e. not with them down here . It was my way of coping.

Another thing I find fascinating is the itchy feeling you describe, Kiriae, as synesthism (if that’s the correct name) is something I have myself, and these spooky brain connections- part of the reason my son cannot be in school, at least not a traditional one, is that he feels, it seems almost as physical pain, the pain of others. He can't be in a place where bullying, manipulation, and competitiveness, is the norm. Of course he also got bullied himself. The special needs teacher of a boy in his class came up to me once in the staffroom and asked if I was my son’s mother, when I said yes she said ‘your boy is really special. He’s the only one who sees (her pupil) as a real person, and who always includes him, is kind and generous, and gentle even if (her pupil) is behaving kind of weird’. I was really touched.

Biscuitman, interesting what you say about your connections with animals..yesterday we were at a party with our closest friends, our local Italian homeschooling group who are among the nicest, most open-minded, tolerant and kind people I’ve ever met, and there was the neighbour’s boy there, who (poor boy, he’s in school and used to a very competitive and far from benign environment) made all the kids cry one after the other, and at some point was kicking the puppy – which I saw, and I saw my son’s face too, and immediately thought ‘oh no, my son’s about to attack him!! !!’ so I rushed in there quickly and grabbed the puppy to bring him to safety!! !

Somanyspoons, this was interesting – having read quite a lot of stuff by now it seems many are so busy having a big conflicting discussion about it all, they haven’t really spotted that we’re all essentially agreeing, it’s just that either we’re defining ‘autism’ differently, or else we are (as our culture dictates) so busy hunting around for a ‘cure’, or who to blame (in order to not blame ourselves, yes, specially us parents!! !) that the issue has become hopelessly emotionally clouded. Personally I think that blame, both of ourselves and others, is totally counter-productive – one of my favourite sayings is ‘If I were you…. I’d be doing exactly what you are doing’. As for a cure, perhaps we should all try to ‘cure’ ourselves of our humanity, it’s so limiting

Yes, I think the journey of parenthood is unique whoever your children are. For me the only reason it helps to know about autism is firstly to find communities of like-minded people (like this one, I have not joined any parent group except homeschoolers and unschoolers), and secondly the only reason I ever need a label is that it earns us a lot more tolerance and sympathy from our extended families, otherwise he constantly gets pressure to reply, to be polite, to be sociable, not to be unable to cope (I need an excuse to say ‘we have to get out of here’ or ‘no, we can’t come to another gathering tomorrow’..), to have 2-hour bedtimes where I need to lie with him and listen to his worries and he holds me tightly, often literally lying on top of me or his papa, every night. For him to come and drape himself around me, a rather slight woman, with a big tall 7-yearold boy draped round my shoulders – especially men often can’t deal with this, and get really critical, while of course my cute 5-year old girl would be allowed to do all of these things but doesn’t feel any need to! Things that are usually frowned upon, are tolerantly overlooked instead. I know it sounds rather pathetic but it does really help us to get the leeway we need in order to cope.

People have said to me, I think to be comforting, ‘it’s innate, it’s nothing you did’, and I’m really puzzled. Although I recognize their good intentions, I actually need no commiseration, I think I’m the luckiest woman in the world to have the family I do, secondly I actually think that –depending on how you define autism – there’s a whole lot going on, that includes environmental and genetic factors. I don’t need to be exonerated! I did a lot wrong, but as I said I think self-blame is pointless, while sadness, regret and self-awareness is just fine – and being accepting and loving life in all its complexities, is the key to happiness.

Hey, BirdinFlight, I beat you on the word count ! ! 

As they say, "If you know one autistic person, you know one autistic person."
Still, I suspect that where that non-emotional stereotype comes from, is that many people on the spectrum face a communication barrier with neurotypical society. If a neurtotypical person can't understand an autistic person's emotional response, they think it doesn't exist. If I had to guess, I'd say that is why this misconception exists.

It took me a long time to realize that some days when I would feel super sad seemingly without explanation, I was often emoting the feelings of those around me with out knowing it (even if they never told me how they were feeling). It actually took me until almost college to figure than one out.

I'm often making the longest posts and feeling "ooops" about it, hahaha! Interestingly I was selectively mute as a child -- but now, they can't shut me up! Another arc of a journey I've gone on!

I think in my case yes there was a feeling of being overwhelmed and too young to know what to do with that, and also what Hyperborean said about not express outwardly what's going on inwardly, and what somanyspoons said about being so busy "noticing" other things that one doesn't also notice the crisis of that other person.

For me there was also this sense that I couldn't really do anything to help -- not that I didn't want to but that I wasn't yet connecting to the possibility that something I could personally do or say might in fact alter someone else's reality (ie help them).

I don't know if anyone else experienced that, but that was an odd thing I experienced for a long time in my life -- a kind of failure to realize I could "act upon the world." I felt quite ineffectual as a child, but that may also be something else entirely, such as the fact that I was the youngest and my older siblings always seemed to take charge of everything. That feeling of mine may not be an autism thing at all, maybe just an "overlooked little sister" issue, so be advised that might be just "me."

Glad to know you are finding useful thoughts here!

(Oh and....it says "Italy" in the "Location" line beside your posts!)

katy-rome - What a wonderful response to all our posts! You came to WP to ask questions about autism, but I think you instinctively know a great deal already. You have some marvellous insights, not only into autism but the human condition itself. I know people who homeschool their autistic children: it takes courage and hard work, but usually produces good results, not least young people with a more truly human view of life.

At times you sound like Papa Francisco.

About the noticing and responding to people, as I've just seen there were a few more really interesting comments about this, I've seen that when my son is under any kind of complex social pressure, especially negative, judgemental, manipulative, competitive, disapproving, he is unable to communicate or 'respond appropriately'. He stops making eye contact, completely. If forced to reply by some insensitive adult, he'll mumble something at the wall. He looks sullen, and later flies into rages (when alone with me), which look to me like the culmination of emotional desperation and overload, and a deep feeling of being misunderstood. It looks to me like it's not him but the adult in the situation who is behaving inappropriately

It's almost like, despite his best intentions, he gets judged and misunderstood (by people, not by animals or things).

When he is relaxed, like when we're in the woods with our dog, or with our closest friends, he is spookily empathetic. He reads my emotions and my intentions in a way our lovely, sociable daughter, cannot. And there's full eye contact, smiles, laughter, great physical coordination, he's totally carefree. All missing when in a negative 'people situation'.

^ This is the great conundrum with autism: our environment is all important, but too often it is dictated by a society that fails to understand and accept diversity of all kinds, not just neurodiversity.

You seem to understand your son very well.

katy_rome, this description of your son sounds eerily like me when I was his age. I can still relate to the description of having felt like I was in a negative situation and responding to it when I was your son's age, the way your son does. And also to the different me when I knew I was in a safe environment, relaxed, etc. Eerie similarities I relate to strongly from my memories of my childhood.

Your son is very fortunate to have such a great mother; I think you're doing great.

Hyperborean, I'm really moved by your comment. Thank you so much for this, I can't express how much this understanding and support means to me. In this community there is evidently such a lot of understanding, and support, and honesty. How refreshing ! !! !

Fern, that is exactly how is has seemed to me! Almost that autistic people are actually FEELING the emotions of those around, and not just people - unfiltered, in their neural pathways - also nature, animals, objects, the things that surround us. It's spooky, and magical. And how could anyone help but either stop relating to people, and concentrating on understanding things or animals, or systems, to unprecedented depths, if those energies were negative and judgemental? Otherwise the pain would be unbearable, right??

BirdinFlight, the stories of yourself and your background, this is incredibly interesting and so useful to me, it's exactly what I need to learn about. I am struck by the parallels between you (also when young) and my son, and I want to take the time now to read your posts more slowly and carefully. In fact I think I will copy paste the whole lot and print it out, so I can write all over it

For the OP - yes, there are several other threads here about it feeling more like too much empathy or intense feeling, than missing that sensation. For me I avoid eye contact because it just feels like too much contact and am afraid of getting sucked in and lost somehow.

Researchers are starting to get this. The Intense World Theory is gaining some strength, and lots of validation from spectrum people. Check out the link above or google "Intense World Theory" to learn more of the research view of this. It makes sense to me.

Right, this is really interesting. Guess my hunch has more scientific support than I could have imagined.. and this also calls for printing out and studying, I think I also need to have a closer look round this issue and around the other forums in this community too. Thanks for getting me onto this, fascinating.

The eye contact - i see what you mean. The weird thing is that I get that a bit too, just occasionally. As I really look people in the eyes when they are talking to me I sometimes get a 'wooah' feeling as I'm almost pulled off-balance, like there's some kind of invisible wire between us. Are human beings actually really powerful? (it all starts feeling a bit star-warsy, you know, The Force ) I think perhaps we are. Our brains are little understood, and incredibly complex, like huge unexplored ecosystems..

I was just saying in another thread that its so important to state it if you are not speaking English as a first language on these boards. It gives us the change to be more understanding of word choice issues.

So, gently... are you aware of the implication of calling your son spooky? Its a term we associate with fear. Primarily with the presence of ghosts or other chilling paranormal activity. Its almost never used to describe human being, except if you want to describe a vague feeling of discomfort around them. Like "My neighbor turned out to be an axe murderer. I always thought there was something spooky about him, but I couldn't quiet place it."

There is a great need within the NT community to place us somewhere understandable. To put us in a box that is familiar. And so some people, who are well intentioned, say that Autistics are some kind of higher human evolution. That we are "indigo children" or that we are "old souls."

Unfortunately, this is just as confining as describing us all as idiots. We aren't all the same. Some of us are into spirit work and others aren't. Personally, I'm one of the one's who is into it. But the majority are not. You're welcome to speak to me about it. But not as an aspect of "all autistics are..." My autism does provide a way of looking at the world that facilitates my intuition, but autism doesn't have to do this. For many people, autism facilitates science or mathematical ways of looking at the world... or a "trains!" way of looking at the world.