Page 2 of 4 [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Jute
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

15 Oct 2016, 12:32 pm

The simple fact is that autism is a disability, a condition, call it what you will. Autism is a broad spectrum and some people on that spectrum have very challenging behaviour that can injury themselves and put a huge strain on their families over the course of their entire lifespan. What is wrong with a privately run business choosing to exclude sperm that has the possibilty of creating such children? Set up a private children that offers sperm from autistic, dyslexic and Downs Syndrome donors and see how many clients who actually want that sperm you will get.


_________________
Gamsediog biptol ap simdeg Bimog, toto absolimoth dep nimtec gwarg. Am in litipol wedi memsodth tobetreg bim nib.

Somewhere completely different:


Autism Social Forum

I am no longer active on this forum, I've quit.


starkid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,812
Location: California Bay Area

15 Oct 2016, 1:39 pm

Jute wrote:
Sperm banks are run on eugentic principles so they obviously don't want anything less than perfect donors. They probably turn down people with HIV, Parkinsons Disease, Downs Syndrome, Inherited Heart Disease and a whole load of other conditions too and who's to blame them? Accepting "faulty sperm" would hardly be a good business model and at the end of the day that's all sperm banks are, privately run business concerns. As private businesses they have every right to decide who they wish to receive donations from. Do you think any prospective "sperm recipient" mother would wish to risk conceiving a child with any of those conditions if the chances of doing so could be significantly reduced simply and efficiently by rejecting donors with those conditions?


I was going to say, "no they aren't, they are run on business principles," but you said something quite similar later on in your comment. So which is it? Are they run on eugenics principles or business principles? Or both?



Jute
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

15 Oct 2016, 1:44 pm

Both, eugenics is obviously a viable business model because a lot of prospective parents/clients would like to have a "perfect" child. In contrast selling "inferior" sperm is not a viable business propositon because there aren't enough potential buyers.


_________________
Gamsediog biptol ap simdeg Bimog, toto absolimoth dep nimtec gwarg. Am in litipol wedi memsodth tobetreg bim nib.

Somewhere completely different:


Autism Social Forum

I am no longer active on this forum, I've quit.


cathylynn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,045
Location: northeast US

15 Oct 2016, 1:47 pm

i don't exactly have dyslexia, but i inherited a visual spatial learning disability from my mom.



starkid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,812
Location: California Bay Area

15 Oct 2016, 2:16 pm

Jute wrote:
Both, eugenics is obviously a viable business model because a lot of prospective parents/clients would like to have a "perfect" child. In contrast selling "inferior" sperm is not a viable business propositon because there aren't enough potential buyers.


I don't know what you mean by "perfect," but I think the prospective parents just want a child who is as healthy and able as possible.

Eugenics is a premeditated effort to change an entire population of people; sperm banks operate on the basis of individual clients. I think sperm banks are in no way eugenicist organizations. As an example, if someone was willing to pay money for sperm from someone with Down Syndrome, at least some sperm banks would probably be willing to seek that.



Jute
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

15 Oct 2016, 2:39 pm

Eugenics is defined as...

Quote:
The study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)


The section about "especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits" is essentially what the OP's posts about rejecting autistic and dyslexic sperm donors is about. Perhaps it's not usually done for any deep philosophical reasons but on a purely commercial basis people are far more likely to pay to be inpregnated with, what they believe to be are, sperm from a "healthy" donor than from one with "defects."

By perfect I mean that the majority of prospective parents would like their child to be; healthy, intellient, good looking and successful. They are far more likely to achieve those desires if the sperm is selected on what amounts to eugenic prinicples than if they just took pot luck. I don't know about the likelihood of facilitating impregnation with sperm donated by someone with Downs Syndrome. I rather suspect that the majority of sperm banks would politely decline a client who wished for such a service, rather than accomodate them, and some might not be so polite in their refusal.


_________________
Gamsediog biptol ap simdeg Bimog, toto absolimoth dep nimtec gwarg. Am in litipol wedi memsodth tobetreg bim nib.

Somewhere completely different:


Autism Social Forum

I am no longer active on this forum, I've quit.


StarTrekker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Age: 32
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,088
Location: Starship Voyager, somewhere in the Delta quadrant

16 Oct 2016, 12:39 am

Sabreclaw wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
If you don't have mutations, you don't have evolution. End of story.

In order for a species to survive, they have to develop coping mechanisms. Some of them involve things which might seem "pathological" at first glance.


Evolution is more complicated than random mutation = profit. How does dyslexia make life in anyway easier for anyone?


It creates a different way of seeing the world. The reason dyslexics have such a hard time reading is because they see everything in three dimensions, rotating images in their minds and constructing excellent mental replicas of things. It is this three dimensional rotation which causes them to jumble up the letters of words. This unique thought process can make people very creative, and incredible with directions. My mom and my sister are both dyslexic, and they have amazing navigational skills. My sister was helping my grandma navigate to places she'd only been to once by the time she was five. My mom and my sister are both amazing artists too; my mom teaches a painting class at a studio in town, and my sister can perfectly recreate images, even people which are extremely difficult, just by looking at a picture. I don't think either of them would be able to do this if they weren't dyslexic.


_________________
"Survival is insufficient" - Seven of Nine
Diagnosed with ASD level 1 on the 10th of April, 2014
Rediagnosed with ASD level 2 on the 4th of May, 2019
Thanks to Olympiadis for my fantastic avatar!


Spiderpig
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,893

16 Oct 2016, 2:47 am

Now try convincing of that the woman who wants to have a child and raise them on her own, taking half their genes from an anonymous sperm donor she won't have any kind of emotional connection with. The only sensible approach is to ruthlessly filter by raw gene quality, more so than in any meat market. Anything less than perfect is out of the question and a waste of space and other precious resources in the sperm bank.


_________________
The red lake has been forgotten. A dust devil stuns you long enough to shroud forever those last shards of wisdom. The breeze rocking this forlorn wasteland whispers in your ears, “Não resta mais que uma sombra”.


NorthWind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Gender: Female
Posts: 577

16 Oct 2016, 6:39 am

StarTrekker wrote:
It creates a different way of seeing the world. The reason dyslexics have such a hard time reading is because they see everything in three dimensions, rotating images in their minds and constructing excellent mental replicas of things. It is this three dimensional rotation which causes them to jumble up the letters of words. This unique thought process can make people very creative, and incredible with directions. My mom and my sister are both dyslexic, and they have amazing navigational skills. My sister was helping my grandma navigate to places she'd only been to once by the time she was five. My mom and my sister are both amazing artists too; my mom teaches a painting class at a studio in town, and my sister can perfectly recreate images, even people which are extremely difficult, just by looking at a picture. I don't think either of them would be able to do this if they weren't dyslexic.


Quote:
Wikipedia:In early childhood, symptoms that correlate with a later diagnosis of dyslexia include delayed onset of speech, difficulty distinguishing left from right, difficulty with direction, and a lack of phonological awareness, as well as being easily distracted by background noise.


Even if some people with dyslexia are incredible with direction, I highly doubt it is because of dyslexia, or at least I'm pretty sure there are many kinds of dyslexia that do not make people better at this. I have (a rather mild case of) dyslexia and I used to be horrible with directions when I was a child. I'm in some situations quite average now. I'm good at remembering ways I've only seen on maps but never actually gone myself. I'm terrible at remembering ways I've only walked or driven while having to concentrate on something else (traffic, talking to a person etc.) but that's probably because of my autism and not my dyslexia. I also have a dyslectic sister and a dyslectic brother. My sister is still has horribly bad navigational skills and my brother might be quite average at it. None of my non- dyslectic family-members have difficulties with directions and my (non-dyslectic) mother is very good at it.
I also couldn't tell left from right until I was 10 and both my dyslectic siblings took even a bit longer to learn this.

I might agree with there being a link between creativity and dyslexia though. I don't have any amazing talent like those of your sister and mother but I always liked drawing and I sometimes write fantasy stories. My dyslectic sister plans to make writing novels her profession (kinda difficult to make a living of it and likely just wishful thinking) and wanted to study arts at university some years ago but changed her plans. My dyslectic brother started making 3D-models with Blender when he was 12 and started writing a book (that mightn't ever be finished).
Me and my dyslectic family members are not the only people in the family that ever did any arts but it would not surprise me if there indeed was a correlation.



NorthWind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Gender: Female
Posts: 577

16 Oct 2016, 6:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Dyslexia is not really "in the genes."

Anybody from any background could get it.

Anyway, I've met many dyslexics who are able to compensate so much that nobody would suspect they have it. Frequently, they have excellent social skills.

Being able to adapt means that you have "good" genes.


I am dyslexic (albeit it's not very severe dyslexia) and as long as no one asks me to read aloud no one would realize it. My spelling used to be awful and I couldn't differentiate between 'b' and 'd' and between 'p' and 'q'. It had a pretty bad impact on my grades at school for the first 5 years and then suddenly got a lot better (I also tried hard to improve; it didn't just get better on its own). I don't think my dyslexia matters much now and I don't think it'd matter much if I weren't autistic and would live my life like your average NT.
I don't know why there would be a correlation between social skills and being able to compensate for dyslexia though. I don't have good social skills. I have dyslexia. It's not a problem any more.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

16 Oct 2016, 9:10 am

I never stated there was an exact correlation. All I stated is that I've known people with dyslexia who have excellent social skills, and that I sense that this could be compensatory.



DataB4
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,744
Location: U.S.

16 Oct 2016, 10:40 am

I feel that this rejection is about two issues: fear and the quest for the best. People are afraid of knowingly taking a risk of having a child with known challenges, but the unknown ones don't really factor into their choices. On the surface, a parent with a known inheritable condition is an unnecessary risk if they can just pull another parent out of the bank.

Biodiversity is a great concept, but on an individual level, people want the traits they want in their children. Not all people, but enough to make sperm donor selection the process that it is.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

16 Oct 2016, 11:27 am

Jamesy wrote:
Sabreclaw wrote:
Jamesy wrote:
People with Asperger's syndrome were also turned down from the sperm bank :(


Why do you even care so much what sperm banks are doing?



I think it kinda reflects society's attitude towards aspergers and there right to having children etc.....


I think I get what you are saying; how does one reconcile one's flawed existence and knowledge that parents would not select you to bring into the world based on genetics with the "everyone is equal" meme? It's a moot point because no one is going to start killing disabled people; but for me the question matters because it makes me wonder at my value as a person and my ability to succeed in society.
Jamesy, people with autism have the right to have children. And thank God because I still think we may have an interesting perspective to offer.



ResilientBrilliance
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 280

16 Oct 2016, 11:43 am

No, doesn't sound crazy to me.



DataB4
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,744
Location: U.S.

16 Oct 2016, 1:01 pm

androbot01 wrote:
I think I get what you are saying; how does one reconcile one's flawed existence and knowledge that parents would not select you to bring into the world based on genetics with the "everyone is equal" meme? It's a moot point because no one is going to start killing disabled people; but for me the question matters because it makes me wonder at my value as a person and my ability to succeed in society.
Jamesy, people with autism have the right to have children. And thank God because I still think we may have an interesting perspective to offer.


The parents don't really know what they're rejecting or accepting. They don't see the whole person with his or her strengths and weaknesses, abilities and disabilities. Before you meet the whole person, the disabilities stand out the most.

Each person is unique. If you could replace one potential person with another, you would never truly know what you've lost or gained. They just guess, based on the few facts they have. They might've even preferred the kid with the disability, but they can never know.

I believe in equality of opportunity, because we really don't know what a person's potential is until we allow for that. The more we level the playing field for people with disabilities, the less disabled they'll be in society.

As for a person's unique perspective, that's one more thing we can't know until the person develops it. Diversity of perspective is very valuable because it can change a society.

All of this doesn't even consider compassion for fellow human beings, but you didn't ask about that.



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,302
Location: Pacific Northwest

16 Oct 2016, 1:06 pm

This is like a form of eugenics.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.