Just been looking at multiple complex developmental disorder

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TwilightPrincess
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05 Aug 2018, 7:11 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I would take it seriously if it was in the DSM or the ICD. Since it isn’t, it’s not a real diagnosis.

So many things are not in the DSM anymore. Even Asperger's, Classic Autism and PDD-NOS. Do you not take them seriously anymore :roll:


I certainly don’t. I believe in the beautiful spectrum that is autism spectrum disorder.



Child of the Universe
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05 Aug 2018, 7:13 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Child of the Universe wrote:
My point is exactly that there ARE mixed traits, but those mixed traits don't need to be labeled something else (MCDD) rather than just being labeled what they are. The anecdotal evidence of meeting people with MCDD vs Asperger's is different from actually looking at the criteria for ASD and MCDD and comparing them, then coming to the conclusion that there is such a significant overlap between traits that the diagnosis of MCDD has little use and it is much better to diagnose someone with autism and a comorbid disorder than MCDD. Like Twilightprincess said, why not just treat the symptoms rather than creating a whole new label when autism and comorbid (fill in the blank) would do just fine?

To give these people a place where they feel they belong. The people with MCDD are different, their way of perceiving reality, compulsive thoughts, emotion regulation, anger problems, social issues in combination with severe mental problems and so on make them not normal Asperger's. The people I talked with where amazingly happy they had a label they belonged to. Is that so wrong?

That's alright for the purposes of community, but emotions do not dictate whether or not it is a valid diagnosis, and to claim that it is is incorrect due to it not being recognized in the majority of countries. I could additionally see a similar sense of community being found in people with both autism and other comorbid issues, rather then creating a new diagnostic label. One need not look farther than the "Bipolar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, etc" forum on WrongPlanet, for example, where one can find many people with both ASD and other mental illnesses who do not have a diagnosis of MCDD but still have a community.


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LoneLoyalWolf
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05 Aug 2018, 7:14 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
I certainly don’t. I believe in the beautiful spectrum that is autism spectrum disorder.

What does it say in your profile then? It doesn't say Autism Spectrum Disorder :wink:


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05 Aug 2018, 7:15 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I certainly don’t. I believe in the beautiful spectrum that is autism spectrum disorder.

What does it say in your profile then? It doesn't say Autism Spectrum Disorder :wink:

Appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. Also, WrongPlanet doesn't have an option for that.


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Aug 2018, 7:18 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I certainly don’t. I believe in the beautiful spectrum that is autism spectrum disorder.

What does it say in your profile then? It doesn't say Autism Spectrum Disorder :wink:


I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder with the DSM and Asperger’s Syndrome with the ICD.

I’ll change that in my profile. I think AS can come off as a bit elitist.



TwilightPrincess
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05 Aug 2018, 7:22 pm

Child of the Universe wrote:
LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I certainly don’t. I believe in the beautiful spectrum that is autism spectrum disorder.

What does it say in your profile then? It doesn't say Autism Spectrum Disorder :wink:

Appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. Also, WrongPlanet doesn't have an option for that.


I just saw an option towards the bottom that says “other autism spectrum disorder” so it’s a category if you don’t fit into the other old diagnoses. They need to update that.



LoneLoyalWolf
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05 Aug 2018, 7:22 pm

Child of the Universe wrote:
That's alright for the purposes of community, but emotions do not dictate whether or not it is a valid diagnosis, and to claim that it is is incorrect due to it not being recognized in the majority of countries. I could additionally see a similar sense of community being found in people with both autism and other comorbid issues, rather then creating a new diagnostic label. One need not look farther than the "Bipolar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, etc" forum on WrongPlanet, for example, where one can find many people with both ASD and other mental illnesses who do not have a diagnosis of MCDD but still have a community.

In my opinion, MCDD is way more than just autism with co-morbid issues.

You have made your opinion clear and I respect it. We agree to disagree and I wish you a wonderful day.


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05 Aug 2018, 7:24 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Child of the Universe wrote:
That's alright for the purposes of community, but emotions do not dictate whether or not it is a valid diagnosis, and to claim that it is is incorrect due to it not being recognized in the majority of countries. I could additionally see a similar sense of community being found in people with both autism and other comorbid issues, rather then creating a new diagnostic label. One need not look farther than the "Bipolar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, etc" forum on WrongPlanet, for example, where one can find many people with both ASD and other mental illnesses who do not have a diagnosis of MCDD but still have a community.

In my opinion, MCDD is way more than just autism with co-morbid issues.

You have made your opinion clear and I respect it. We agree to disagree and I wish you a wonderful day.

Same. We can agree to disagree. :)


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LoneLoyalWolf
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05 Aug 2018, 7:26 pm

Child of the Universe wrote:
Same. We can agree to disagree. :)

To derail tremendously.

Your avatar makes me think of this:

Image

Love it :heart:


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Child of the Universe
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05 Aug 2018, 7:44 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Child of the Universe wrote:
Same. We can agree to disagree. :)

To derail tremendously.

Your avatar makes me think of this:

Image

Love it :heart:

Thank you!


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05 Aug 2018, 8:07 pm

I remember seeing this disorder before, and it has always puzzled me. Many of the symptoms can just be accounted for by having an autism spectrum disorder, but the main focus in MCDD seems to be the presence of psychosis and extreme aggression. To be honest, I’m not sure if I believe this is a real thing, and I certainly would hope that people aren’t diagnosed with it as it isn’t in the DSM or ICD. This kind of reminds me of the thread started on “Schizotypal Autism” here one time that turned out to be a hoax.

I have no doubt that ASD can occur with psychosis, but I don’t think it is a separate disorder with a single cause. Some of the more common instances where the two disorders would be commorbid are if the person used certain substances or suffered a brain injury, if the psychosis occurred as a result of a major depressive disorder, or in cases of things like DiGeorge Syndrome, which increases the risk for autism, behavioral problems, and psychosis. In cases where the cause of psychosis is unknown but occurs alongside autism, I do not think it is one disorder, but the two disorders blending together to create a certain subtype that could be seen by some as a single disorder (MCDD). The underlying mechanisms aren’t different though, and it is likely that there was a separate cause for each disorder. That’s just my opinion, though.


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05 Aug 2018, 8:13 pm

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
I remember seeing this disorder before, and it has always puzzled me. Many of the symptoms can just be accounted for by having an autism spectrum disorder, but the main focus in MCDD seems to be the presence of psychosis and extreme aggression. To be honest, I’m not sure if I believe this is a real thing, and I certainly would hope that people aren’t diagnosed with it as it isn’t in the DSM or ICD. This kind of reminds me of the thread started on “Schizotypal Autism” here one time that turned out to be a hoax.

I have no doubt that ASD can occur with psychosis, but I don’t think it is a separate disorder with a single cause. Some of the more common instances where the two disorders would be commorbid are if the person used certain substances or suffered a brain injury, if the psychosis occurred as a result of a major depressive disorder, or in cases of things like DiGeorge Syndrome, which increases the risk for autism, behavioral problems, and psychosis. In cases where the cause of psychosis is unknown but occurs alongside autism, I do not think it is one disorder, but the two disorders blending together to create a certain subtype that could be seen by some as a single disorder (MCDD). The underlying mechanisms aren’t different though, and it is likely that there was a separate cause for each disorder. That’s just my opinion, though.

I agree.


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05 Aug 2018, 8:17 pm

Differentiation between autism and multiple complex developmental disorder in response to psychosocial stress.
Jansen LM1, Gispen-de Wied CC, van der Gaag RJ, van Engeland H.
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Multiple Complex Developmental Disorder (MCDD) represents a distinct group within the autistic spectrum based on symptomatology. Unlike autistic children, part of MCDD children develop schizophrenia in adult life. Despite the differences, patients of both disorders are mainly characterized by abnormal reactions to their social environment. At the biological level, we showed in a previous study that MCDD children have a reduced cortisol response to psychosocial stress. Given the fact that autistic children clinically show more social impairments, it was hypothesized that they may have even further decreased cortisol responses to psychosocial stress than MCDD patients. Therefore, 10 autistic children were compared to 10 MCDD children and 12 healthy control children in their response to a psychosocial stressor, consisting of a public speaking task. In order to test whether any impairments in the biological stress response are specific for psychosocial stress, the autistic children were compared with 11 MCDD children and 15 control children in their response to a physical stressor, consisting of 10 min of bicycle exercise. Heart rate and salivary cortisol levels were used as indicators of response to the stress tests. Autistic children showed a relatively elevated cortisol response to psychosocial stress, in contrast to MCDD children who showed a reduced cortisol response. No differences in heart rate or cortisol responses to the physical stress test were found. The specific difference between autistic and MCDD children in their cortisol response to psychosocial stress indicates that the disturbed reactions to the social environment observed in these disorders may have different biological backgrounds.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12629541


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Aug 2018, 8:25 pm

firemonkey wrote:
Differentiation between autism and multiple complex developmental disorder in response to psychosocial stress.
Jansen LM1, Gispen-de Wied CC, van der Gaag RJ, van Engeland H.
Author information
Abstract

Multiple Complex Developmental Disorder (MCDD) represents a distinct group within the autistic spectrum based on symptomatology. Unlike autistic children, part of MCDD children develop schizophrenia in adult life. Despite the differences, patients of both disorders are mainly characterized by abnormal reactions to their social environment. At the biological level, we showed in a previous study that MCDD children have a reduced cortisol response to psychosocial stress. Given the fact that autistic children clinically show more social impairments, it was hypothesized that they may have even further decreased cortisol responses to psychosocial stress than MCDD patients. Therefore, 10 autistic children were compared to 10 MCDD children and 12 healthy control children in their response to a psychosocial stressor, consisting of a public speaking task. In order to test whether any impairments in the biological stress response are specific for psychosocial stress, the autistic children were compared with 11 MCDD children and 15 control children in their response to a physical stressor, consisting of 10 min of bicycle exercise. Heart rate and salivary cortisol levels were used as indicators of response to the stress tests. Autistic children showed a relatively elevated cortisol response to psychosocial stress, in contrast to MCDD children who showed a reduced cortisol response. No differences in heart rate or cortisol responses to the physical stress test were found. The specific difference between autistic and MCDD children in their cortisol response to psychosocial stress indicates that the disturbed reactions to the social environment observed in these disorders may have different biological backgrounds.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12629541


That’s a pretty small study. I think there needs to be more research for it to be given diagnostic validity.



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05 Aug 2018, 8:27 pm

^^^The thing is, how can the researchers be sure that these kids had MCDD in the study? There may be a diagnostic criteria, but it is far from official. Wouldn’t they need children with a psychotic disorder diagnosis along with those who would go on to develop a psychotic disorder in the study as well?

This is far from becoming a clinical diagnosis.


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Aug 2018, 8:31 pm

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
^^^The thing is, how can the researchers be sure that these kids had MCDD in the study? There may be a diagnostic criteria, but it is far from official. Wouldn’t they need children with a psychotic disorder diagnosis along with those who would go on to develop a psychotic disorder in the study as well?

This is far from becoming a clinical diagnosis.


That’s a good point.

Labels tend to be somewhat arbitrary anyway. We’re all individuals and have some symptoms but not others. Different professionals diagnose me with different things. That’s just the way it is.