Conditioning by the environment and now ABA?
27 Oct 2019, 5:18 pm
darkwaver wrote:
Having only experienced the old way, I can't say which would be worse. Going through misery every day with no one helping you or giving a sh**, or being labeled with a disorder and drugged and put through ABA. In my experience the bullies were always believed anyway because they were good at lying, and a reputation as a weirdo was still damaging before it had a name. On the other hand, I never got treated like I was incapable of doing anything in life or that expectations were less for me. If I'd grown up in these times my life might have turned out much worse, because my family would probably have treated me as if I was incapable of doing anything, and I would have internalized it. I'll just say for that reason I'm glad I grew up the old way, even though it was brutal.
The expectations are what led to a need for masking for me, it's a tough one, because without those expectations I suspect I would have internalised so many harmful messages about being autistic and not pushed myself as hard as I did.
The masking was quite damaging all the same...
27 Oct 2019, 5:28 pm
littlebee wrote:
This is a really good thread. Thanks for making it. I am an older aspie, but I escaped a lot of bullying, mainly because of the way my parents socialized me I was able to kind of fit in, and being very good looking (which I always deliberately downplayed my entire life) really did help, sad to say, as looks should not make such a difference. Still I felt like an alien my entire life and still do and have been through horrible suffering, mainly because of what happened to me in my family in my childhood, which violence shaped and warped my personality. I have done lot of work on myself, though, over the years, but some things I should have worked on I did not, as I did not have it in me to do so. I am having to come to terms with some of that now, at a kind of old age.
Re ABA--are autistic people doing this to each other? It does sound to me, actually, like the kind of therapy some aspies would advocate because of the tendency for the thinking being so kind of black and white in many. I believe that it is only human for people to try to change their behavior in order adapt and fit in; however, imo, the desire needs to come from within in order for the change to be completely generative. This said I am not completely against trying to re-conditioning ones responses or even necessarily against getting some kind of help in trying to do so.
Also, I know a lot of autistic people who, as myself, definitely were not like others, even out and out really odd, but who still were not bullied, and I think many so-called nt's were bullied, though, yes, people are more likely to scapegoat people who are overtly different. I do think most if not all bullies were themselves bullied. The way I see it this is a 'human' problem, not that these bullies are being human. So I will say it is a people problem.
Re ABA--are autistic people doing this to each other? It does sound to me, actually, like the kind of therapy some aspies would advocate because of the tendency for the thinking being so kind of black and white in many. I believe that it is only human for people to try to change their behavior in order adapt and fit in; however, imo, the desire needs to come from within in order for the change to be completely generative. This said I am not completely against trying to re-conditioning ones responses or even necessarily against getting some kind of help in trying to do so.
Also, I know a lot of autistic people who, as myself, definitely were not like others, even out and out really odd, but who still were not bullied, and I think many so-called nt's were bullied, though, yes, people are more likely to scapegoat people who are overtly different. I do think most if not all bullies were themselves bullied. The way I see it this is a 'human' problem, not that these bullies are being human. So I will say it is a people problem.
Thanks, yes the responses are great, it's been on my mind for a while, trying to understand how to help or support younger people on the autistic spectrum.
Yes its that the desire is not coming from within, as there doesnt seem to be a place for the autistic childs voice. If a person is silenced and othered in decisions regarding their trajectory as standard from the early years I think this could alter their cognitive, moral, emotional, spiritual, cultural, development, not to mention their overall health.
27 Oct 2019, 5:34 pm
Magna wrote:
Growing up undiagnosed in the 70's-80's you were literally on your own to figure it out. Each day was a challenge in survival. I mean you were on your own to figure it out because in my case I didn't know how to communicate my problems to my parents and the one time I tried when the bullying was at its worst, my Dad threatened to publicize my issue to many people and make things a spectacle which would have made it worse for me.
The only difference for me is that once I did fight back after getting punched in the face with a group of kids standing around to watch. I was led out of the school not thinking I was about to be in a fight. The other kid was laughing and smiling beforehand so I thought it was a joke and I was one of the players. After I got punched and it hurt I punched him back, knocking him down and giving him a huge black eye that lasted for weeks. It's true that he never touched me again and no one else in that particular class hassled me.
I've said it many times that I believe autistic adults are survivors. Survivors of life. While this makes us resilient, focusing purely on surviving each day means thriving can be elusive or extremely difficult.
The only difference for me is that once I did fight back after getting punched in the face with a group of kids standing around to watch. I was led out of the school not thinking I was about to be in a fight. The other kid was laughing and smiling beforehand so I thought it was a joke and I was one of the players. After I got punched and it hurt I punched him back, knocking him down and giving him a huge black eye that lasted for weeks. It's true that he never touched me again and no one else in that particular class hassled me.
I've said it many times that I believe autistic adults are survivors. Survivors of life. While this makes us resilient, focusing purely on surviving each day means thriving can be elusive or extremely difficult.
True, those of us who make it into adulthood can struggle to thrive, I cant help but feel that there are many who dont survive, or remain battling to just survive as a consequence of their experiences.
Thriving sure would be a nice outcome.
27 Oct 2019, 5:44 pm
Trogluddite wrote:
Magna wrote:
...the one time I tried when the bullying was at its worst, my Dad threatened to publicize my issue...
"If you're getting bullied for being weird, then stop being so weird", was pretty much my Dad's attitude - there wasn't anything in life that couldn't be fixed by "pulling one's socks up" by his book.
Magna wrote:
I've said it many times that I believe autistic adults are survivors. Survivors of life. While this makes us resilient, focusing purely on surviving each day means thriving can be elusive or extremely difficult.
Very well said; I couldn't agree more. It wasn't until I was diagnosed that I realised the extent to which making myself "invisible" had become my primary motivation in life. I never gave much thought to what I wanted from life, only the desire not to do anything that others would disapprove of. Not just the bullies, but everyone around me, were my informal ABA therapists, and I fail to see how formalising it is likely to lead to any different results, other than losing the feeling that, in some small way at least, my coping strategies were a form of self-sufficiency, however dysfunctional.
Oh boy I can relate to the piece you wrote about the aim of being invisible. At one point I had lost my way so badly with anxiety that I felt I needed to be invisible when driving, so that no one would notice me as different. I didn't know why I was doing this, just that I needed to for survival reasons.
Having someone else determine my future actions or even past events determining my future is something I resist strongly today.
I think the freedom to self determine in some way was a key part of the school of hard knocks.
27 Oct 2019, 5:47 pm
carlos55 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
That unwritten social rule is what me and I suspect many undiagnosed autistics did not understand. My “logical” mind thought fighting back when they were bigger then me, more coordinated then me, and there were more of them was stupid and would invite worse retaliation. What I wished I understood was that while the cost of fighting back would be me getting beaten to a pulp a few times I would eventually gain respect and the bullies would become the outcasts. Instead my “logical” mind choose the path that invited escalation.
Can relate to a lot of that growing up, thanks for putting it in words, watch the movie The Accountant that touches on this in an entertaining way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accountant_(2016_film)
I've not watched that movie, seen it on netflix, but skipped past it because I was put off by Bennifer, might give it a go.
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27 Oct 2019, 5:48 pm
carlos55 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
That unwritten social rule is what me and I suspect many undiagnosed autistics did not understand. My “logical” mind thought fighting back when they were bigger then me, more coordinated then me, and there were more of them was stupid and would invite worse retaliation. What I wished I understood was that while the cost of fighting back would be me getting beaten to a pulp a few times I would eventually gain respect and the bullies would become the outcasts. Instead my “logical” mind choose the path that invited escalation.
Can relate to a lot of that growing up, thanks for putting it in words, watch the movie The Accountant that touches on this in an entertaining way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accountant_(2016_film)
You are welcome.
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27 Oct 2019, 5:57 pm
littlebee wrote:
Re ABA--are autistic people doing this to each other? It does sound to me, actually, like the kind of therapy some aspies would advocate because of the tendency for the thinking being so kind of black and white in many.
ABA is done to autistic children. They have no say in the matter. It is done by the education system and a massively profitable ABA industry with substantial help from influential Autism Speaks lobbying.
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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
28 Oct 2019, 10:06 am
Amity wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Can relate to a lot of that growing up, thanks for putting it in words, watch the movie The Accountant that touches on this in an entertaining way.
I've not watched that movie, seen it on netflix, but skipped past it because I was put off by Bennifer, might give it a go.
It is a good movie. It shows the two contrasting ways autistics were trained and the end results. It is after-all pure fiction and brutal at times. But the film has heart.
[Bennifer - The term was derived from a couple consisting of celebrities Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. According to the Urban Dictionary - Bennifer refers to a combination of two things that seperately suck but when put together can achieve a level of sucking not understood by physics.]
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31 Oct 2019, 11:46 am
Amity wrote:
littlebee wrote:
This is a really good thread. Thanks for making it. I am an older aspie, but I escaped a lot of bullying, mainly because of the way my parents socialized me I was able to kind of fit in, and being very good looking (which I always deliberately downplayed my entire life) really did help, sad to say, as looks should not make such a difference. Still I felt like an alien my entire life and still do and have been through horrible suffering, mainly because of what happened to me in my family in my childhood, which violence shaped and warped my personality. I have done lot of work on myself, though, over the years, but some things I should have worked on I did not, as I did not have it in me to do so. I am having to come to terms with some of that now, at a kind of old age.
Re ABA--are autistic people doing this to each other? It does sound to me, actually, like the kind of therapy some aspies would advocate because of the tendency for the thinking being so kind of black and white in many. I believe that it is only human for people to try to change their behavior in order adapt and fit in; however, imo, the desire needs to come from within in order for the change to be completely generative. This said I am not completely against trying to re-conditioning ones responses or even necessarily against getting some kind of help in trying to do so.
Also, I know a lot of autistic people who, as myself, definitely were not like others, even out and out really odd, but who still were not bullied, and I think many so-called nt's were bullied, though, yes, people are more likely to scapegoat people who are overtly different. I do think most if not all bullies were themselves bullied. The way I see it this is a 'human' problem, not that these bullies are being human. So I will say it is a people problem.
Re ABA--are autistic people doing this to each other? It does sound to me, actually, like the kind of therapy some aspies would advocate because of the tendency for the thinking being so kind of black and white in many. I believe that it is only human for people to try to change their behavior in order adapt and fit in; however, imo, the desire needs to come from within in order for the change to be completely generative. This said I am not completely against trying to re-conditioning ones responses or even necessarily against getting some kind of help in trying to do so.
Also, I know a lot of autistic people who, as myself, definitely were not like others, even out and out really odd, but who still were not bullied, and I think many so-called nt's were bullied, though, yes, people are more likely to scapegoat people who are overtly different. I do think most if not all bullies were themselves bullied. The way I see it this is a 'human' problem, not that these bullies are being human. So I will say it is a people problem.
Thanks, yes the responses are great, it's been on my mind for a while, trying to understand how to help or support younger people on the autistic spectrum.
Yes its that the desire is not coming from within, as there doesnt seem to be a place for the autistic childs voice. If a person is silenced and othered in decisions regarding their trajectory as standard from the early years I think this could alter their cognitive, moral, emotional, spiritual, cultural, development, not to mention their overall health.
"Thanks, yes the responses are great, it's been on my mind for a while, trying to understand how to help or support younger people on the autistic spectrum.
Yes its that the desire is not coming from within, as there doesnt seem to be a place for the autistic childs voice. If a person is silenced and othered in decisions regarding their trajectory as standard from the early years I think this could alter their cognitive, moral, emotional, spiritual, cultural, development, not to mention their overall health."
Hi Amity et al. I think the problem is really quite complex, as there are many different interconnecting factors influencing this situation.. For instance I would say that many if not even most children are not allowed to speak with their own voice. Children are basically treated pretty senselessly in many ways by parents who were once themselves children and almost surely treated in this same way, so they are just kind of mechanically passing these behavioral patterns on and maybe not consciously but unconsciously, because they are able to be in control, venting their rage/frustration/stress and also trying to instill their own unfulfilled hopes and desires onto these helpless people who are smaller, so vulnerable, and all of this is kind of in many cases mixed up with feelings of love, but not complete mental clarity, yet these people, (shall we call them perpetrators though they are in actuality also perpetrated) really feel that they are doing what is right and good, and maybe in some way it is, but in other ways it is not in that on some level there is at least some value to a behavioral therapy approach. Just trying to describe the general situation as I am seeing it. have I described it?
So, to try to fix something like this when it is already in motion would be very big. Imo very. This is not to suggest to give up hope.
Also, by younger people do you mean children or more teenagers? If teenagers and they are on a forum such as this, then I think there is a way to affect them that is more outside the mechanical sphere, but we are mechanical, too, or at least I often am, though maybe not as much as some, as I am an older person who has been consciously, when I can remember, working on myself trying to address this for many years.
