Rexi
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Joined: 3 Sep 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,388
Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
26 Dec 2020, 11:00 pm
Udinaas wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
An aspergers book the doc gave me differentiates between "empathy", and "sympathy".
That author used the word empathy to mean something akin to theory of mind: sensing what folks feel. Or maybe "theory of heart" would be more accurate.
Sympathy is identifying with other, and caring for them, etc.
The author said aspies can have "sympathy in spades". What they lack is figuring out how others feel. Well meaning but obtuse. So that condition is the "lack of empathy".
So: an aspie has sympathy, but no empathy. In contrast a sociopath (or psychopath) would be the opposite, and has "empathy, but no sympathy" (they would know how you feel but not have pity, and would use your emotions to exploit you).
And thats apparently where the confusion arises. Folks conflate empathy and sympathy. And then leap to the wrong conclusion that "aspies lack empathy so they must be the same as criminal sociopaths".
Other authorities break it down as "cognitive empathy"(what my book calls just "empathy"), and "affective empathy" (basically what my book calls 'sympathy').
That author used the word empathy to mean something akin to theory of mind: sensing what folks feel. Or maybe "theory of heart" would be more accurate.
Sympathy is identifying with other, and caring for them, etc.
The author said aspies can have "sympathy in spades". What they lack is figuring out how others feel. Well meaning but obtuse. So that condition is the "lack of empathy".
So: an aspie has sympathy, but no empathy. In contrast a sociopath (or psychopath) would be the opposite, and has "empathy, but no sympathy" (they would know how you feel but not have pity, and would use your emotions to exploit you).
And thats apparently where the confusion arises. Folks conflate empathy and sympathy. And then leap to the wrong conclusion that "aspies lack empathy so they must be the same as criminal sociopaths".
Other authorities break it down as "cognitive empathy"(what my book calls just "empathy"), and "affective empathy" (basically what my book calls 'sympathy').
Affective empathy is actually feeling what other people feel (or what you think they feel), not mere sympathy. So its really three things that are being equated. Alexithymia could probably impair affective empathy in aspies that have sympathy.
Emotional/Affective empathy - you feel awful? then i feel too
Cognitive E - I understand that you feel awful. That must suck
Compassionate E - You feel awful? I feel for you. How can I help?
It does, for my Alx. friend until 3 hrs later when his emotions catch up. Certainly has cognitive empathy. He also wants to help.
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28 Dec 2020, 10:26 pm
Mountain Goat wrote:
Could be a man spade or a woman spade? (Is there a sex for a spade?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
... ... ...
I read your l-o-n-g post completely...And my heart bends towards you
...Yes, under Jesus Christ kingship, here on Earth, humanity will heal, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually...Greetings to you, my friend...And please stay safe...
28 Dec 2020, 10:34 pm
Clueless2017 wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Could be a man spade or a woman spade? (Is there a sex for a spade?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
... ... ...
I read your l-o-n-g post completely...And my heart bends towards you
...Yes, under Jesus Christ kingship, here on Earth, humanity will heal, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually...Greetings to you, my friend...And please stay safe... Thanks. I did not think many read what I write. The future... Uhmmm. When I am ready and recovered so I know I am ready for anything again, I can make plans... (Probably involving trains!
).
29 Dec 2020, 5:20 am
Another double standard I see is that if a neighbour who's usually friendly ignores an Aspie, the Aspie will get upset and take it personally, like it's an Aspie symptom, and that we need to remember that the neighbour could be having personal issues (like an argument with their spouse) and was feeling too upset to want to speak.
But NTs also take things personally all the time - in fact it's a human trait to take it personally if a friend just ignores you. But if an Aspie has a meltdown and doesn't feel like saying hi to the friendly neighbour, we are considered rude.
It's like an Aspie is expected to read an NT's mind, but if an Aspie expects NTs to read our minds then it's a lack of TOM issue - or, as people like to say, "lack of empathy".
I just don't get it. 
29 Dec 2020, 6:28 am
29 Dec 2020, 9:41 am
29 Dec 2020, 7:51 pm
Affective empathy is alien to me. That's good and bad. Somebody feels bad or is whiny? Even if I see it I just recognize it but don't have feelings because of that. It's not my problem at all except I decide to care about.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
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Life has to be an adventure!Rexi
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Posts: 2,388
Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
02 Jan 2021, 1:59 am
quite an extreme wrote:
Affective empathy is alien to me. That's good and bad. Somebody feels bad or is whiny? Even if I see it I just recognize it but don't have feelings because of that. It's not my problem at all except I decide to care about.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
From what you told me I think you lack cognive empathy, the ability to take on someone else's perspective. Maybe that is theory of mind at work.
Npd people are the exact opposite to this as they excel at it.
People entirely lacking cognitive empathy cannot lie: so, constant brutal pathological honesty, being unable to spare the feelings of others, not being able to avoid conflicts because of an inability to understand how someone else may feel or respond to what is being said, etc. Would humans be alright being around that? If that was evolutionarily sound, we’d never have developed the ability to lie. Most animals do ok with it except some more emotional primates, elephants, dolphins etc. They seem to have a trickster sort of behavior, circus fun kind.
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02 Jan 2021, 7:00 am
Rexi
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Joined: 3 Sep 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,388
Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
02 Jan 2021, 8:49 am
Joe90 wrote:
I can't lack cognitive empathy then, as I do know how to lie, even as a child.
It's confusing because Quite an Extreme seems really gifted in the area of cognitive empathy but he's not.
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02 Jan 2021, 9:10 am
Joe90 wrote:
I can't lack cognitive empathy then, as I do know how to lie, even as a child.
I may be fooling myself, but I believe I'm very good at reading between the lines as well as being compulsively aspie honest.
Much of this cognitive empathy comes from metacognition, practicing envisaging different perspectives, rather than jumping to conclusions, and longevity of life experience.
[simple joke] [do not take it seriously]Rexi
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Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
02 Jan 2021, 9:46 am
Clueless2017 wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Could be a man spade or a woman spade? (Is there a sex for a spade?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
Yes. I understand and I do not know where I stand. I do have and have had similar situations where though no one knew or did not know if I am or am jot on the spectrum as I do mot know either though I know I probably am or at least half way in between... So no one who accused me could say "It is because he is on the spectrum" as an excuse... But I have found many times throughout my life that I and someone else can be doing something different from a main group, and the group do not accept it if I have done it, but if another person who fits in with the group will be not just accepted, but rhat person will have hero status because he or she did it... When what I did was the exact same thing! (Or even if they don't have a hero status, what they did will be ignored, but what I did I would be told off for).
It REALLY winds me up when the one criticizing me does the exact same thing themselves and when I tell them they get really annoyed with me! Why shout at me? Shout at yourself you silly man!
It also gets to me when I can get a task to do where I have worked in rhe past, and the person in charge who has the official athority over me has left me do that task... Then someone else comes along and says "Don't do rhat. I want you to do this..." so I say "No. I have this to do". But the person gets annoyed at me if I don't do their job as well as mine, and when I report back to the one in charge of me, I get told off for the one who tried to divert my task, and then I get told off from the one who is trying to get me to do their work as well. And I was getting lots of flack when I said to the one trying to divert my task "You go and speak to the one who told me to do this. If your taskis urgent, speak to him and get him to get me to change what I am doing. Do not blame me! It is your task after all!"
But then I get bullied by the one who I didn't work for and yet this person did not once go and speak to the onein athority over me about it!
I have had this situation time and time again in various jobs I have worked at and it is why I kept ending up in shutdowns and being burned out as I ended up doing many times more work then other staff seemed to be doing and having to do "Free overtime" without pay after work, before work and regularly working through my lunch breaks.
And the extra work done went into the bonuses of the bullies!
Due to years of this, even though the last three temporary jobs I did where I burned out towards the end of each one... I was treated very wellmin the last three jobs in the same place... But even though I was treated well, the pyscological effects from the past were coming back to me every time I had to work and I was ending up with so much anxiety and stress and had strings of partial shutdowns, and shutdowns... And whilw some were caused by the spray oils etc as smells can trigger them, a great deal of it was my brain memorizing the past and "Clicking in" the stress of the past situations... And it was not just me. Another worker who worked there had to leave due to anxiety and stress and he was told he would never work again, and another worker had several months off with the same issues, all working on the department I worked at. The one causing the issues did not even work in the same department!
Though this was not the only place I worked where this happened. I had a terrible situation between the boss and his son where I first worked ad it is why I got soo stressed and eventually left. I liked them both as people, but it was a case that the boss would set me tasks, but then put his son in charge, but his sone then said "Leave that. I'm in charge. Do this and this and this..." So each time the boss would come back he would be upset as nothing he wanted would be done and did not appreciate the work I had done for his son.
I have always had issues when jobs were being piled up because I could see no mental end to the work. But also I had big issues with partial and full shutdowns when I had worked out what I needed to do and every time I settled someone in athority would come in and say "Leave that. I want you to do this first"... and then another customer would come in and it was "Leave that...." and despite me saying "What about this customer?" And when the customer came back I would be told off for not having finished their bike in front of the customer so the one who was dealing with the customer did not look bad.
But why is it that people can be like this? I was always told I needed to work as a team and not on my own... Yet I was not the one who was not working as a team. It was the ones who kept saying I was not working as a team were ofen the very ones who were the problem.
When I hit my first burnout, it was because an accumilation of many things, and one of these things were people continually takeing advantage of my gullability so they could change shifts with me (Or they would see the one in charge and he was changing the shifts without me being asked) so I was continually ending up working the longer harder shifts and also loosing out on some rest days etc. And also the rostering in the main depot were continually begging me to work overtime on my rest days, and when I was over tired, because of rhe many begging phonecalls during rhe hours I should have been asleep (Railways went right through 24 hours) I would eventually give in and say yes and the cycle repeated itself until I became burnt out, and then I quit after nine years. A complete record for me to have stayed in any job. Usually two years was all I could manage before I quit and had to move on. (Trains are a special interest and due to the ever changing shifts one rarely stayed working with the same staff for long so I was able to keep the masking up for far longer then a place where I had to work with the same staff daily if that makes sense?)
But anyway.... I kept being taken advantage of which eventually cumilated in the state I am in now where I can't even think about working in the future without getting stress with the thought of it.
(Does the mind heal from past experiences?)
... ... ...
I read your l-o-n-g post completely...And my heart bends towards you
...Yes, under Jesus Christ kingship, here on Earth, humanity will heal, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually...Greetings to you, my friend...And please stay safe... As his interest reveals, his post is a cute long train.
_________________
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x Any topic, PM me; mind my profile.
Rexi
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Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
02 Jan 2021, 10:43 am
Pepe wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I can't lack cognitive empathy then, as I do know how to lie, even as a child.
I may be fooling myself, but I believe I'm very good at reading between the lines as well as being compulsively aspie honest.
Much of this cognitive empathy comes from metacognition, practicing envisaging different perspectives, rather than jumping to conclusions, and longevity of life experience.
In other words, the older you get, the hotter you become. At least until the reverse time when your mind turns so ineffective that erases the progress.
Makes sense~ Tssss... Ouch, that's hot!
_________________
My Pepe Le Skunk. I have so much faith in our love for one another. Thanks for being an amazing partner.
x Any topic, PM me; mind my profile.
03 Jan 2021, 6:40 am
Rexi wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
Affective empathy is alien to me. That's good and bad. Somebody feels bad or is whiny? Even if I see it I just recognize it but don't have feelings because of that. It's not my problem at all except I decide to care about.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
From what you told me I think you lack cognive empathy, the ability to take on someone else's perspective. Maybe that is theory of mind at work.
Npd people are the exact opposite to this as they excel at it.
People entirely lacking cognitive empathy cannot lie: so, constant brutal pathological honesty, being unable to spare the feelings of others, not being able to avoid conflicts because of an inability to understand how someone else may feel or respond to what is being said, etc. Would humans be alright being around that? If that was evolutionarily sound, we’d never have developed the ability to lie. Most animals do ok with it except some more emotional primates, elephants, dolphins etc. They seem to have a trickster sort of behavior, circus fun kind.
Your assumptions about me are wrong. I know feelings but don't generate them the same that NTs do. You can't imagine that way because emotions are always part of your thinking and you are driven by them. I'm different if it comes to this and I'm not a visual thinker as well. I'm thinking mostly verbal and abstract. I have cognitive empathy only. I see how people are and wich emotions mirror in their faces. If I'm not just against them then I dislike if people are unhappy. But it's because of compassion and not feeling something.
Because of the way they act I have an idea what people wan't and what their intentions are. Dishonesty and lying? I know them and hate them. I rarely do and I'm not as good at it. But I recognize emotional manipulations which are for lying if NTs don't really get them because their emotions foul them.
I'm unable to this because emotions and feelings aren't part enough of my thinking for always realizing the way others feel. But I'm able to feel and to have emotions and also to recall the feelings in my mind. NTs may get my feelings once I develop them. Without having empathy myself I was unaware of that a long time. It was the reason for not making eye contact. Looking emotionless in the eyes of others? If it comes to women who like me then they usually don't get me. Men get me very differently ...
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Life has to be an adventure!Rexi
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Gender: Female
Posts: 2,388
Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
03 Jan 2021, 7:56 am
quite an extreme wrote:
Rexi wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
Affective empathy is alien to me. That's good and bad. Somebody feels bad or is whiny? Even if I see it I just recognize it but don't have feelings because of that. It's not my problem at all except I decide to care about.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
I guess NTs are regarding animals like dogs the same way but I'm not sure if it comes to this.
Would explain why the see that much of a difference between animals and themself.
Lacking the TOM of NTs is sometimes more a problem. NTs foul each other more easily because of this. They can't foul the same somebody who lacks affective empathy. This is also part of the problem that the OP described in her post.
Cognitive empathy is not just understanding but also recognizing the feelings of others in a rational way without sharing the feelings. Lacking cognitive empathy can be a very hard thing too. It's a little bit less a problem if the people have at least affective empathy. Cognitive empathy can be trained more easily than affective empathy.
Of course this isn't yet all about this because emotion are transported in different ways. Beside of facial expressions and body language is there also an important nonverbal part in the intonation of verbal language and in the way that verbal language is used. Some people are unable to share and recognize emotions in verbal language. It's the same as for facial expressions then.
From what you told me I think you lack cognive empathy, the ability to take on someone else's perspective. Maybe that is theory of mind at work.
Npd people are the exact opposite to this as they excel at it.
People entirely lacking cognitive empathy cannot lie: so, constant brutal pathological honesty, being unable to spare the feelings of others, not being able to avoid conflicts because of an inability to understand how someone else may feel or respond to what is being said, etc. Would humans be alright being around that? If that was evolutionarily sound, we’d never have developed the ability to lie. Most animals do ok with it except some more emotional primates, elephants, dolphins etc. They seem to have a trickster sort of behavior, circus fun kind.
Your assumptions about me are wrong. I know feelings but don't generate them the same that NTs do. You can't imagine that way because emotions are always part of your thinking and you are driven by them. I'm different if it comes to this and I'm not a visual thinker as well. I'm thinking mostly verbal and abstract. I have cognitive empathy only. I see how people are and wich emotions mirror in their faces. If I'm not just against them then I dislike if people are unhappy. But it's because of compassion and not feeling something.
Because of the way they act I have an idea what people wan't and what their intentions are. Dishonesty and lying? I know them and hate them. I rarely do and I'm not as good at it. But I recognize emotional manipulations which are for lying if NTs don't really get them because their emotions foul them.
I'm unable to this because emotions and feelings aren't part enough of my thinking for always realizing the way others feel. But I'm able to feel and to have emotions and also to recall the feelings in my mind. NTs may get my feelings once I develop them. Without having empathy myself I was unaware of that a long time. It was the reason for not making eye contact. Looking emotionless in the eyes of others? If it comes to women who like me then they usually don't get me. Men get me very differently ...
That's pretty cool. I might be the same.
That reminds me of something I read, that NTs have an automatic emotion reading ability which is constantly active so perhaps you are logically identifying it each time instead, which should be more accurate, shouldn't it? Except the face reading, that may tell about the feeling more [except for some of us, we can't mimic faces well, I can't, voicing emotions either].
Npd people also have a non auto, that's also probably why they describe it similarly, logically how they read emotions by noticing things.
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x Any topic, PM me; mind my profile.
Last edited by Rexi on 03 Jan 2021, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
03 Jan 2021, 10:59 am
Rexi wrote:
That reminds me of something I read, that NTs have an automatic emotion reading ability which is constantly active so perhaps you are logically identifying it each time instead, which should be more accurate, shouldn't it?
I'm identifying them mostly right but I don't get some of the emotions the same that the automatic emotion reading ability does especially once it comes to feelings that don't mirror in facial expressions and the ones that require that feeling related TOM. May be I could improve at that with the help of a nice girl...
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