Autism and Lack of Empathy

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Some people get irritated by telling “relatable” experiences….but I don’t mind. I learn from them.

Brace yourselves, as it will be a long and deeply personal post.

In my case, empathy is something I needed to learn and rationalise. Frankly, if it weren't for the fact that I do feel my own emotions, I would fit a definition of a psycho.

I do not understand the relationship people have with their own emotions. Quite often, even the reasons why they are in distress are irrational from my perspective. I don't know what to do when they are being overwhelmed with emotions and lose self control, because I have experienced this state like few times and when I was way younger. When something bad happens in my life, I do grief, cry, feel sadness, but it is brief and muted - I am quickly shifting in to a mode in which my emotions are cut off and I am looking for a solution.

When I hear about something bad happening to people I do not have any connection with, I do not feel any emotions at all. When I was 12, a kid in my school has hanged himself. My peers were in shock. Many of them needed psychological help afterwards and school has organised classes about mental health and where to seek support. I couldn't understand any of it. Why a death of one kid moved everyone even though majority of kids didn't even spoke with him once? For me he was a part of the background and one day he was gone. It didn't affect me in any way. I told my mom about my thoughts and she didn't say anything, just walked out of the room, locked herself in the bathroom and cried. A lot. She wasn't speaking to me for next two days. We have never spoke about this again.

My empathy has developed along my left-wing (like left of liberal even, much like socialist) political views. Caring about other people was the only logical outcome and moral thing to do. Still, it is not like I am "wired in that way" and act like this in an instinctive manner, it is more like a conscious process and yes - I am still able to shut it off. The level of cruelty I can have for people I despise can be scary and at times it feels like I must keep my own mind on a leash.

This has been my "trait" since early childhood. When I was in kindergarten I've asked my mom to kill kids who bullied me, telling her that they are of no value and that everyone would be better off if they would be dead. Imagine hearing this from a 5 year old.

During my teenage years, I have been a bad person, to put it simply. Felt out of place, so distant from my peers. I couldn't understand their emotions, what responses to expect, how their minds operate, how impactful are words spoken to them. I haven't treated most of them like human beings but more like test subjects, trying to see what responses in people certain actions and words can invoke. Even hanging out with my friends (I had few over the years, mostly outsiders, unpopular kids) was more about observing them than socialising with them. And I've been cutting off these relationships when I felt maintaining them further is pointless.

Even if I have emotional concerns about some action, if my mind deems that it is a right or necessary thing to do, I am able to shut them off and execute said action.

To give you an example - I've studied the food technology and during sixth semester, we were doing a round trips around factories to get to know practical side of things. One day, we have visited a large scale slaughterhouse. On site, our professor has asked for one of us to assist with putting down a cow. Now, killing a cow is not that simple. Well, it is, but not when you want to do it for technological purpose. You need to make the animal unconscious to spare it pain, then open up the arteries, so still pumping heart will remove blood from the body, causing quick death (it also makes a sense from processing standpoint, as bloody meat is of low quality and acidic). This is basically the same for all animals, but in case of smaller ones, electrical shock is enough to make them unconscious - it is used even in case of pigs. But bovine skull bones are way too thick for this method to be effective. Enter the captive bolt pistol. It is basically a pistol which drives a bolt through forehead, crushing the frontal lobe with force of impact.

So, this is the part which our professor wanted one of us to help with. We were in a group of about 15 people, including some "hot shots" who played to be tough in front of girls earlier. No one wanted to do it. The workers were waiting, the cow was there, no one volunteered. People were turning their eyes away. Prof got impatient and said "do you want me to pick someone?". I said that I'll do it, as I've decided that it is the best thing to do because:

-the cow was already as good as dead. Any further delay would only cause additional stress to the animal, which would be cruel and also undesirable from technological point of view (meat from stressed animals is less valuable for processing for several reasons). But it would be killed anyway, that's for sure. Cows do not exit slaughterhouses alive.

-the delay has been making both our professor and the workers nervous, which could result in unpleasant consequences (i.e. higher difficulty of next test/exam).

-someone who is totally unfit for the task could be picked and this could end up in drama or even him/her being traumatised.

One of the workers handed me the pistol and instructed me how to operate it. I've placed it on the animal's forehead, in between the eyes, but slightly above them. For a very brief moment I've thought "do I really want to do this?" but then I've remembered my reasoning from few minutes ago and my mind went into "execute instruction set" mode. I pulled the trigger, shot the cow, slaughterhouse workers proceeded to do the rest. I've handed over the gun to the worker who stood beside me and he asked me "It felt good, didn't it?" with a smirk.

But the point is: it didn't felt like anything. There were no feelings whatsoever. My mind was completely blank during pulling the trigger and afterwards. Some of my colleagues were visibly pale from the emotions and stress caused by seeing an animal falling to the ground in convulsions. One girl was visibly shaking. They didn't sign up for this - yeah, they were no vegans, but their future job should be working in a lab, checking quality, production process safety, coming up with new recipes and inventing ways to make products better and/or cheaper. Not slaughtering cows by their own hand. They never expected that one of "us" will need to participate in this process.

For the remaining part of our tour, people were mostly silent. Cheerful and sometimes cocky attitude was gone. Atmosphere has relaxed a bit on the way back to university. In the bus, a girl whom I've been in good relations with has asked me how I could do it, because she just wouldn't have the strength in her. I told her that it needed to be done and I've focused on task, which was partially true. I have left out the part about void in my head. I truly was indifferent about taking part in killing of that animal and all I could think about was what is the reason for this.

Why I do not feel what other people feel? Why they were so shocked, when they fully knew when we are going and what they can realistically expect to see? I have took this upon myself so they won't need to do it, so why they still had so strong reaction? Why that butcher asked if it felt good? Does he really find shooting cows in the head as something pleasant? Did he think I am the same because I've volunteered and show no visible signs of fear, stress or excitement?

I was 22 years old at the time. I always knew that I am a bit different than anyone else, but simply considered myself an introvert. That situation has made me realise how differently I function on a very basic level. I've even started to wonder if I am a psychopath, but too many traits of my personality didn't fit the bill. I went through periods of grief, I have been awestruck, in love, crying and so on. These weren't super strong emotions, but they were there. I saw value in being good to people. Maybe I have not experienced any mood swings like most folks do, but I considered this to be a good thing and thought that it is simply a matter of above average level of self control.

Now I know that it is related to my AS and also, most likely, to my neurological condition. I cannot read emotions of others unless they are pretty obvious and even then do not feel the immediate connection, especially, if they are outburst caused by something irrational or insignificant from my perspective. Furthermore, I can count on fingers of one hand the times when I've been truly overwhelmed by emotions, to the point of losing it and entering "fight or flee" state.

Most people are either in good mood or bad mood. It is binary. Sad or happy. Full of energy of tired. Bored or interested. And so on. But for me, most of the time, it is neither. I am indifferent, it is like if the negative emotion is (-1) on a scale and positive one is (+1), I am in a default state of 0. I rarely go into (-1) or (+1). I do not perceive this as anything wrong, but I cannot tell that other people feel the same. They often think that I am bored by them or do not enjoy their company, which isn't necessarily true.

I am on anti seizure meds since March last year and I feel that all of this is even further amplified by them. I take Lamotrigine, which is also a mood stabilizer used in psychiatry. What happens when you stabilize a mood of a person who is in stable mood most of their life?

I am feeling more and more detached from humanity in general. It is like looking at alien culture, with customs and behaviour patterns which developed because of conditions and adaptations which are unknown to me. I am genuinely scared by the way most people can "lose their head" and stop processing information in rational way, either if they are angry or for example, in love. It is genuinely off-putting for me to see how they throw away all common sense and make stupid decisions based on temporary impulses, even though facts and reasoning say they should choose differently.

I am sad when I see people taking drugs or drink alcohol to alter their cognitive abilities, I no longer understand what's the value in willingly handicapping your own intelligence and ability to think rationally - it almost always leads to people saying and doing stupid things. I am disgusted when I see those who take hallucinogens. This stems from the fact that undiagnosed, untreated epilepsy has been wrecking my lateral temporal lobe for six years getting gradually worse, until I've found a doctor who got to the bottom of what I suffer from. I've experienced massive partial seizures - scary stuff. Do you know how it is to have a deja vu about having a deja vu about current events? Do you know how it is to feel like reality can collapse unto itself any time, and that it is hanging on a thread? Like there's a kind of "veil" between your mind and physical world? Like the very moment you are in right now has been repeating in cycles for eternity already and you cannot escape it? Having a taste in your mouth like nothing you've ever tasted, feeling like nothing real? Memories being recalled at random and being mixed what you experience at the moment? Feeling like you are just one step from having an epiphany about nature of universe, or that it is hard to grasp reality and if you'll let go, your mind is going to dissolve into nothingness?

I do. I do not understand, why people are willing to experience all of this stuff by choice. All I wanted was for it to be gone. It has been ruining my life. I barely remember two first years of my older kid. We do not introduce viruses to our PCs on purpose, to make them working in a "funky" way. It impairs their function and is not in line with their purpose. Why do people do this to their brains, then?

I was happy when meds started to work. Felt freed from this crap. But from time to time, for example, when I've had little sleep, I do get the focal seizure. These are relatively shallow and do not last long - remind me a state of being drunk after like four to five beers (European ones so about 4,5% to 6%, more for porter style beer, not the low % ones popular in US) which I've experienced as a teenager, because I've drank alcohol back then. Still, I dread these moments. Nowadays, I wouldn't choose to do this to myself willingly, never again, at least.

Even this pandemic made me realise how different I am... so many people suffer from psychological problems caused by limited human contact, isolation, social distancing. Teenagers go suicidal, people my age are openly denying the pandemic, do not vaccinate and do not even wear masks because they do not want to alter their own way of life. Yet, I am functioning better than ever in this environment.

I have never met another person like me. I've stopped speaking with people about this because no one I know gets it. No one can relate, even my closest family only partially understand how I perceive reality, myself and other people. If I would be a Doctor Manhattan, I would be already on Mars. I am writing all of this here only because I saw others who may have been similar to some degree. I am curious if I am not the only one.

I get that. I'm on and off. I could as easily help someone as I could ... not. In crisis I am the calculating person you talk about. I am either highly empathetic and giving, or I am ... ruthless. People sense this about me. (I don't know if it shows up on this board.) I was often frozen ("off", avoidant) in emotional situations when young, but now I'm able to handle them better. Now when I have that dead feeling, I know that I am "off" which is fantastic for immediate action (or control), but lousy for long-term thriving. I used to have unbearable nightmares about a void (gee, not in anyway symbolic ). I would just be standing in a void and it was terrifying. Now I am facing my fears and traumas (in dreams) and "surviving" them. I'm so happy! I've "found" a safe way to have big feelings. I've really done good screaming in my dreams. It brings so much relief. My (ASD) mom lived "off" for most her life. Now in her late 70s she has started to be "on" and it's weird to her (she breaks into tears easily), but I like to think it's good for her. My (likely ASD) grandma lived "off" and I'm sorry we didn't connect before she passed.

As an aside, my first long-term (ASD) partner was "off" and his own friends warned me away from him. I found him to be similar to me: caring and ruthless. I could hold my own with him but he was close minded and that didn't suit me. I talked to him recently and he's still mostly "off". Later I chose an (NT) partner who was "off" (detached), but showed more openness. While dating he laughed out loud during a gruesome part of a movie and my (attached) father was appalled. Decades later my (NT) partner has developed empathy (much to his surprise). My dad is less appalled.

I am a parent and would never run away from my child who expresses what you did --- not a surprise to me that your avoidant attachment style (or detachment) continued. My daughter is "off' right now (as I mentioned?). I will guide her to identify and manage her feelings. She can still do the math and kill the cow (in science I was also the one to do so), but she'll also have other tools in her emotional toolbox. Having a strong solid hammer is fantastic, but socket wrenches, horseshoe clamps, twine etc. are good too.

@KMCIURA
TL;DR, but I read some of the paragraphs, and that admittedly is an example of atypical empathy, or lack thereof. More than examples that other members post here that they think is lack of empathy but really isn't.

A child dying at your school is a big deal, whether you knew the kid or not. If I didn't know him, I still would have been shocked at least, and would have felt upset for his friends and family. A child dying, in any form, is very shocking and sad news. I can imagine how devastating it must feel for their family and friends. Not feeling anything and not understanding why others were upset, is lacking empathy I think, and should be a definition of it - which isn't typical in most autistics. It's probably just a you thing.

I couldn't have gone to a slaughterhouse and helped kill a cow. I get really sensitive and emotional about it. I can't even bear to think that there are animals being slaughtered as we speak. I wish there was another way we can eat meat without killing animals. Everything on this planet deserves a life... except for evil serial killers that take innocent people's lives for no reason. I have no sympathy for those evil bastards and I don't care for any excuses, murder is never an answer. I'm angry because I'm cursed with this horrible spectrum disorder s**t and I was treated unfairly by my peers at school because of it, but it would still be unacceptable to go and get revenge by finding them and stabbing them to death. People aren't going to be on my side and go "aw, but these people treated her unfairly so you've got to feel sorry for her really." I have self-control and I would never harm anyone just because of my insecurities. I'll deal with my problems in a humane way (even if it does mean posting depressing things about myself and my feelings on an internet forum). It's better than murdering people. I can't stand murderers. They're monsters.

Well...

For one, not all autistics are alexithymic and asocial. Both affects social development and social processing.

The former is very tied to interpersonal issues and is sort of responsible to the lack of empathy stereotype.
The latter could be behavior for any reason or preference or both.


Two, even if there's no alexithymia or asociality involved -- there's always the differences in reception and expression of every human encounter.
Sometimes this is how it begins and/or ends -- the shared assumptions, the contexts, the subtle languages in tones...

Even the misspoken words spoken on impulse taken too seriously instead of jest.
Or that innocent walk on a pavement can be perceived as arrogance because of how someone moves.


Three, the reception and expression, and it's awareness and management may or may not depend well on one and other's state of being, where they came from, how much control and effort, and so on.

Really, sometimes the misperceived judgment of unreliable and unruly, can be another first person's tired and ill.
Or someone's bitter and crude, is actually someone's hurt and sad deep down.



If I were to share any experience, I cannot say. It's inconsistent for me.
I'd say even my EI (if it exists) is likely uneven.

Basics, I understand.
The rest is up to how moody, overwhelmed and tired, and how reliable my executive function currently was at the moment.

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@Joe, exactly. Sometimes an action pains me so much, but I know it's practical. As my therapist said --- "Have compassion for the [errant] person, as you stab them through the heart." I admire her. I was being bullied and needed to take a stand. Clearly she wasn't saying to fatally hurt him, but she was saying to protect myself (and that's the extreme). As far as the cow. I want it to be as humane as possible, or else I will go vegan in my old age. These days I don't even like to have caged pets (like a guinea pig; sure, it extends their life, but the quality of life is lower). I even struggle with this for humans. I think the deadness @KMCIURA feels is "practical" but @KMCIURA's sharing of the smirk tells me it was "painful" for him also (even if those emotions were not "felt").

It would be amazing if I could call it all I see it ---- to that slaughterhouse worker with the smirk: "you sick ------" and call up an "authority" to do something about it. But I know I am supposed to "behave" and am pained that others have power. I was raised as the "sweet young thing", but can imagine the satisfaction of being jury, judge and executioner. I would like to take productive aspects of it and incorporate that into my life. No fun to be a doormat and not tap into my calculating (and raging) beast that would be useful in small doses. That's why the "on" and "off" (lack of emotional regulation) is frustrating. I want the best of both worlds!! !!

Gotta go. Be back later.

I have no empathy for humans. Maybe I once did about a hundred years ago, but their disgusting behavior has ruined the world and soon we won't have a world so all I feel is emptiness, anger and frustration that leads me to commit self-harm. Another eight hundred million people just died? Who cares! Less humans to worry about. Yesterday I saw a video where a young woman walked through the streets of NYC by herself for 10 hours wearing a t shirt and jeans, and men of every type wouldn't stop harassing her, making sexual remarks to her, begging for her phone number and several of them were creepily following her. People in Ottawa are being forced to leave their homes because of the freedumb convoy protest where the geniuses are being racist, sexist, homophobic while causing noise and air pollution while the cops do nothing. The geniuses should all be shot and killed, where's a mass murderer when you *really* need one? Humans are a chemical scum. The way they constantly treat each other and the world is extremely disheartening and I can't understand how anyone can not be completely suicidal because of it. No wonder intelligent life from outer space has never contacted us.

I've said to my mum that I hated her before, and she's said the same to me. But we never once hated each other, not for a moment. We were so close and we loved each other dearly. Because we were so close, we often found ourselves having mother-daughter conflicts that resulted in unkind things being said that we didn't even remotely mean.

Emotions aren't as black and white as scientific proofs. Emotions aren't as simple as 2+2=4. Things get said all the time that we don't mean. I love my job but after having a bad day at work last week I got home and yelled that I hated my job. But I never meant it, I just said it because I was upset at the time.