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skibum
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03 Aug 2023, 10:53 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
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While the American Psychiatric Association insists that “un-diagnosing” is not its goal, there is little question that a purpose of its DSM changes is screening out those who may not be “definitively” autistic. Members of the committees charged with the autism revisions have reverted to this theme again and again, often in unguarded moments.

Some of the overdiagnosis comments sampled below have achieved notoriety in the autism community, but still, the Asperger’s Alive! archive would be remiss not to include them. And its worth remembering that social communciation and Theory of Mind present challenges for some autism researchers.

Susan Swedo, chair of the DSM-5 neurodevelopmental disorders workgroup, said in May that many people who identify with Asperger’s Syndrome “don't actually have Asperger's disorder, much less an autism spectrum disorder.”

David Kupfer, chair of the task force charged with the DSM revisions, blurted to the New York Times in January: “We have to make sure not everybody who is a little odd gets a diagnosis of autism or Asperger Disorder. It involves a use of treatment resources. It becomes a cost issue.” (This was startling to those who’d missed the memo that declared costs and treatment resources the responsibility of the APA. Which was everyone.)

Catherine Lord, the director of the Institute for Brain Development at New York-Presbyterian Hospital, and another member of the workgroup, told Scientific American in January, “If the DSM-IV criteria are taken too literally, anybody in the world could qualify for Asperger's or PDD-NOS... We need to make sure the criteria are not pulling in kids who do not have these disorders.”

Paul Steinberg, a D.C. psychiatrist, declared in a New York Times op-ed in January that “with the loosening of the diagnosis of Asperger, children and adults who are shy and timid, who have quirky interests like train schedules and baseball statistics, and who have trouble relating to their peers” are erroneously and harmfully labeled autistic. He blamed a 1992 Department of Education directive that “called for enhanced services" for children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders: “The diagnosis of Asperger syndrome went through the roof."

Dr. Bryna Siegel, a developmental psychologist at the University of California, San Francisco, told a Daily Beast reporter in February that she “undiagnoses” nine of out ten students with so-called Asperger’s. Siegel was a member of the panel responsible for the inclusion of Asperger’s in the DSM-IV, which the reporter cited to me in a phone call as evidence of Seigel's objectivity: implicitly, Seigel is critiquing her own work. But that same journalist made no mention in the piece of Dr. Seigel’s history as an expert witness for school districts fending off families’ claims for those “enhanced services,” and the obvious conflict of interest (as well as the selection bias in her client pool) this represents. In October, she told New York magazine that she undiagnoses six out of ten. That's quite a shift in eight months. Hope it was evidence-based.

There was intense blowback by Aspie adults. They had recently finally found an explanation for their troubles and these mean NT’s were snatching it away and leveling the same lazy, spoiled, attention seeking brat charges they always been accused of.

Apparently the blowback was strong enough that people with an old Aspergers Diagnosis were automatically grandfathered into the new ASD diagnosis.

Notice what has not been mentioned as a factor is Hans Asperger’s Nazi complicity. It was barely known at the time the subsuming of the Aspergers diagnosis into the ASD diagnosis being debated and put into effect.

In the ensuing decade Autism prevalence has continued to increase and all that angst about people being “undiagnosed” has apparently has been forgotten. And Aspergers Nazi complicity has been widely reported.

Now we have an urban legend history that is commonly believed that goes like this. Aspergers is a term coined by the Nazis or Hans Asperger himself that is no longer diagnosed because of that “history”.

My opinion now is that the Aspergers diagnosis was correctly eliminated for the wrong reasons.

This is more or less what makes my blood boil. If it's not autism, fine, then what is it? There doesn't seem to have been a similar level of concern paid to the people who do have significant traits, but may fall outside the boundaries in certain directions where the next diagnosis is a rather long distance away and where an autism misdiagnosis is more accurate than the other available misdiagnoses.

As I've come to realize, even if one is outside the bounds by a bit on technical grounds, it does not mean that it can't be severe enough to ruin lives without support and treatment and the "more functional" autistic people are still roughly 9x as likely as the general population to murder themselves. But, I'm sure the fear of misdiagnosis and overtreatment is more important than we are.

It's also worth recognizing that they didn't just take away the AS diagnosis, but the kids that Asperger identified would probably not be diagnosable with anything at this point, even though there is impairment that should be met with support. So, you get these people that are now in the middle of nowhere with no rights or protections that would have previously been allowed at least some level of support and protection. It definitely angers me that they had to grandfather people in to avoid having to be held accountable for throwing people off their diagnosis and yanking back support that a lot probably hadn't gotten when it made the most difference.

For Bleuler's part, in a sense he made things a lot worse by being the guy that coined the term schizophrenia and schizoid, which are both relatively common misdiagnoses for autism.


People are missing an important point in my little history lesson. The attempt to undiagnose autism by eliminating the Aspergers diagnosis failed. In 2012 while Aspergers was still around the prevalence rate was 1 in 68, now it’s 1 in 36. A big issue now is so many kids are getting diagnosed the Autism programs can’t handle it. There are months and years long waiting lists to be assessed and to be accepted. There are not much data for adults but every indication is that many more adults are getting diagnosed then 10 years ago.
True. Unfortunately, it's just a sad state of affairs.


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03 Aug 2023, 12:17 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
People are missing an important point in my little history lesson. The attempt to undiagnose autism by eliminating the Aspergers diagnosis failed. In 2012 while Aspergers was still around the prevalence rate was 1 in 68, now it’s 1 in 36. A big issue now is so many kids are getting diagnosed the Autism programs can’t handle it. There are months and years long waiting lists to be assessed and to be accepted. There are not much data for adults but every indication is that many more adults are getting diagnosed then 10 years ago.


But, how much of that is the result of refusing to offer less invasive treatment to those that don't need more? Personally, all I would have needed was help to manage my sensory over stimulation and getting clear direct instructions, neither of which are particularly expensive nor should they require a full on autism program.

The fact that it's failed just makes the efforts to reduce the frequency by changing diagnoses even more disgusting as doctors don't have appropriate options for those that don't have as much need as there simply aren't many other diagnoses that get any help outside.



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03 Aug 2023, 8:30 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Now we have an urban legend history that is commonly believed that goes like this. Aspergers is a term coined by the Nazis or Hans Asperger himself that is no longer diagnosed because of that “history”.

My opinion now is that the Aspergers diagnosis was correctly eliminated for the wrong reasons.


Of course, Asperger's Syndrom/Disorder was coined by Lorna Wing, not by the nazis (a term I never capitalize) or Hans Asperger. The problem is that, because of Lorna Wing, Asperger's Syndrome/Disorder, abandoned by the two major diagnostic manuals, has inadvertently become a part of nazi, or post-nazi, history. That is a more detailed reason for my plea to abandon the term. Wing has apologized for introducing the Asperger's term but for all the wrong reasons. Whether she knows any better may remain a mystery.


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03 Aug 2023, 8:54 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Sort of, they had to have an established treatment plan in place, and wouldn't actually qualify for any sort of diagnosis under the current standards. It was basically just a way of buying people's silence. It's really pretty disgusting that people don't get access to any protections or rights under the law if they were potentially evaluated a mere few months apart, even if they have the same symptoms and the same severity and the same need for help. They flat out wouldn't qualify for any help at all. So for those of us that didn't know this was coming, we got left out in the cold without any legal right to accommodations as we don't have anything that can be diagnosed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463351/


For all of their problems, the DSM-5 and the DSM-5-TR are the best manuals for autism ever produced. The term ASD, widely used by clinicians and researchers long before the DSM-5, is, FWIW, the only term which makes sense to me.

One thing to bear in mind, however, is that those manuals include diagnoses for multiple disorders. I did not check (and probably will not check) on whether there have been changes in the DSM-5-TR for other disorders.


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03 Aug 2023, 9:00 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
This is more or less what makes my blood boil. If it's not autism, fine, then what is it? There doesn't seem to have been a similar level of concern paid to the people who do have significant traits, but may fall outside the boundaries in certain directions where the next diagnosis is a rather long distance away and where an autism misdiagnosis is more accurate than the other available misdiagnoses.


Why do you think it is not Autism? However, one thing to remember is that, until various disorders can be traced to specific genes and neurons, diagnostics will always be limited. Psychiatry is the only branch of medicine which is based primarily on conversational (not scientific) diagnoses.


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Last edited by nominalist on 03 Aug 2023, 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Aug 2023, 9:02 pm

skibum wrote:
I still use the term Asperger's sometimes even though he was who he was. I identify as Autistic because of the severity of my symptoms but even though I think Nazis are horrific, evil, and satanic, I don't have an emotional association with the term Asperger's Syndrome. But I respect that each person has the right to feel however s/he wants about it.


Exactly this. I was dx with Moderate Autism and I don't match the typical "Asperger's" presentation, regardless of who Hans was. I don't like cutesy short-forms either, so I wouldn't use the word "Aspie" regardless. We don't called people with Down Syndrome "Downers" or "Downies", or call blind people "blindeys". Aspie sounds just as silly in my opinion.


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03 Aug 2023, 9:54 pm

nominalist wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Whether she knows any better may remain a mystery.


It will always remain a mystery, she died in 2014.


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03 Aug 2023, 10:12 pm

nominalist wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
This is more or less what makes my blood boil. If it's not autism, fine, then what is it? There doesn't seem to have been a similar level of concern paid to the people who do have significant traits, but may fall outside the boundaries in certain directions where the next diagnosis is a rather long distance away and where an autism misdiagnosis is more accurate than the other available misdiagnoses.


Why do you think it is not Autism? However, one thing to remember is that, until various disorders can be traced to specific genes and neurons, diagnostics will always be limited. Psychiatry is the only branch of medicine which is based primarily on conversational (not scientific) diagnoses.

The DSM 5 is OK? Just look at that and tell me that it wasn't a massive step in the wrong direction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463351/

Autistic people that don't stim get social pragmatic communication disorder, those that have sensory issues, but minimal issues interacting with other people aren't diagnosable with anything, even though for all practical purposes, these people are likely still autistic. The previous DSM offered many more ways of viewing the patient to come to an appropriate diagnosis. If you're lucky, you might get a schizoid personality disorder diagnosis out of it, but that is itself likely to go away under the ICD in the future as it's not a real personality disorder as there are few, if any, pure schizoids that aren't also treatable as autistic, schizotypal or avoidant personality. There somewhere between little and no evidence to support the idea that schizoid personality disorder isn't autism, but it's complicated and poorly studied because of how few schizoids come in for treatment.

The previous diagnostic criteria were unnecessarily complicated, but the way the current DSM went about "fixing" the problem caused a bunch of new problems and there's a real possibility that with more reasonable diagnoses available, you might see more people getting appropriate help. Just because some of us are highly intelligent, doesn't mean that we're not autistic, but effectively that's what the current DSM says. You need a bunch of external signs that may disappear very quickly in some cases, otherwise it becomes a schizophrenia spectrum disorder for some odd reason. Without substantial evidence to warrant the change, it shouldn't have been made. It's not like autism related treatment is so widely available that overtreatment is a real concern. In a lot of the now excluded cases, it's a sensory diet and more appropriate language when making requests. Not something that's expensive, difficult or of any risk to the public health if the diagnosis is wrong.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
skibum wrote:
I still use the term Asperger's sometimes even though he was who he was. I identify as Autistic because of the severity of my symptoms but even though I think Nazis are horrific, evil, and satanic, I don't have an emotional association with the term Asperger's Syndrome. But I respect that each person has the right to feel however s/he wants about it.


Exactly this. I was dx with Moderate Autism and I don't match the typical "Asperger's" presentation, regardless of who Hans was. I don't like cutesy short-forms either, so I wouldn't use the word "Aspie" regardless. We don't called people with Down Syndrome "Downers" or "Downies", or call blind people "blindeys". Aspie sounds just as silly in my opinion.

One of the ironies here is that the actual people that match with what Dr. Asperger described likely wouldn't be diagnosable with anything at this point. Under the DSM IV, they likely would have been diagnosable as PPD-NOS or possibly AS, but under the current DSM, it does not appear that they could receive a diagnosis. Perhaps ScPD, but even that is a bit of a stretch as that diagnosis is moving more and more into the schizophrenia spectrum.



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03 Aug 2023, 10:59 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It will always remain a mystery, she died in 2014.


Maybe not. Someone may discover some papers she wrote.


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03 Aug 2023, 11:02 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
The DSM 5 is OK? Just look at that and tell me that it wasn't a massive step in the wrong direction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463351/


Not okay but better. Clinicians have enormous leeway in how they apply the diagnostic criteria.


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04 Aug 2023, 12:19 am

nominalist wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
The DSM 5 is OK? Just look at that and tell me that it wasn't a massive step in the wrong direction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463351/


Not okay but better. Clinicians have enormous leeway in how they apply the diagnostic criteria.

They do, which is part of why it was such an ill-conceived of effort based on the notion that people were being over treated when the evidence doesn't clearly support that. The clinicians see the patients and then see that there isn't really a diagnosis to cover it, and are then left to figure out what to do about it. Either they don't do anything because there isn't a diagnosis available and allow the patient to suffer for it, or they diagnose the patient with whatever is close enough and covers the treatment that the clinician thinks would be most likely to work. In the case of autism, the treatment is going to be symptom specific rather than disorder specific anyways as there isn't even research to tell us how to split the disorder in a way that would allow for disorder specific treatment.

Without sufficient grounds to say this is where the line is and why that should be the line, it's going to be a tough sell. And for a lot of us, without the diagnosis, we don't have the ability to get accommodations at work or at school because that only comes with a formal diagnosis and often times letters that can't be had without a diagnosis. So, we get screwed and there's somewhere between little and no benefit to anybody else. A lot of us just needed to know what was going on with our heads and what sort of things we could do for ourselves. I mean this is the 21st century, hand held devices that people commonly carry with them can do a tremendous amount to help overcome some of the challenges of autism.

As long as we live in a society with relatively rigid expectations needed to successfully navigate, there's going to be a need for such diagnoses and accommodations. If we lived in a society where developing in other ways didn't require so much help and support, it would be a completely different matter.



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05 Aug 2023, 7:04 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
They do, which is part of why it was such an ill-conceived of effort based on the notion that people were being over treated when the evidence doesn't clearly support that. The clinicians see the patients and then see that there isn't really a diagnosis to cover it, and are then left to figure out what to do about it. Either they don't do anything because there isn't a diagnosis available and allow the patient to suffer for it, or they diagnose the patient with whatever is close enough and covers the treatment that the clinician thinks would be most likely to work. In the case of autism, the treatment is going to be symptom specific rather than disorder specific anyways as there isn't even research to tell us how to split the disorder in a way that would allow for disorder specific treatment.


That is the problem with psychiatry. It is more art than science. Eventually that will, presumably, change. Not yet.

It doesn't imply that people have ill will. The field is, however, still in an early stage.


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05 Aug 2023, 10:19 pm

nominalist wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
They do, which is part of why it was such an ill-conceived of effort based on the notion that people were being over treated when the evidence doesn't clearly support that. The clinicians see the patients and then see that there isn't really a diagnosis to cover it, and are then left to figure out what to do about it. Either they don't do anything because there isn't a diagnosis available and allow the patient to suffer for it, or they diagnose the patient with whatever is close enough and covers the treatment that the clinician thinks would be most likely to work. In the case of autism, the treatment is going to be symptom specific rather than disorder specific anyways as there isn't even research to tell us how to split the disorder in a way that would allow for disorder specific treatment.


That is the problem with psychiatry. It is more art than science. Eventually that will, presumably, change. Not yet.

It doesn't imply that people have ill will. The field is, however, still in an early stage.

It was historically, that doesn't justify the ignoring of the research that we do have that disagrees. Whether it's specifically ill will or not doesn't really make much difference. They chose to ignore what the science we have says about the subject to remove people that need treatment due to "overdiagnosis" and the result has been further damage to the credibility of the diagnosis. I'm not surprised that they had their funding yanked as a result.

But, it does mean that a bunch of people in their 30s and 40s likely missed their only chance at being properly diagnosed and helped, at least for the foreseeable future, as there was a relatively narrow time when there was recognition of the problem.



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06 Aug 2023, 4:00 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
It was historically, that doesn't justify the ignoring of the research that we do have that disagrees.


Of course it justifies it. That is how research works. You find the best research and dismiss research that doesn't measure up to your standards.


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06 Aug 2023, 10:41 pm

nominalist wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
It was historically, that doesn't justify the ignoring of the research that we do have that disagrees.


Of course it justifies it. That is how research works. You find the best research and dismiss research that doesn't measure up to your standards.

That isn't even remotely how research works. You set aside research that has been retracted or that has failed to replicate. Otherwise, it needs to be considered. The big issue here is that there has been so little research on people that are able to mask into adulthood. From what I've read, it wasn't even until sometime in the late '90s that the first article on masking was even published.

So, to suggest that I'm ignoring research that I disagree with is just plain ignorant. The issue here is that there hasn't been much research conducted and what little there has been has been ignored for political reasons. So, we get tossed under the bus, because of a fictitious concern about overtreatment.

But, whatever.



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07 Aug 2023, 5:48 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
You need a bunch of external signs that may disappear very quickly in some cases, otherwise it becomes a schizophrenia spectrum disorder for some odd reason.


How do you explain people like me? My psychiatric diagnosis has chopped and changed over the years, but has mostly stayed within the 'psychosis/schizophrenia spectrum'. It currently seems to go back and forth between schizophrenia and schizoaffective. The first time I was dxed as a person with an SMI was in 1975. The ASD(Asperger's) dx came in 2019, and only happened because I moved and came under a more intelligent and open minded psychiatrist. I'd spent nearly 2 decades getting nowhere trying to get through to my previous mental health team in Essex that there was more going on than just SMI.

My daughter has worked in the caring profession for over 25 years helping a wide variety of people(mentally ill,physically disabled, autistic,intellectual disability,dementia) and is currently branch manager of a home care agency.

Her view is the SMI is secondary to the ASD(Asperger's) and the result of the stresses and strains of having been an undiagnosed autistic child and teenager.

In the conventional way such things are measured I'm very intelligent, but my adaptive functioning doesn't match up to that. Indeed without the support of my daughter and granddaughters I'd struggle to maintain a healthy level of independence.

I'm not aware of stimming. However I'm not totally sure as to what qualifies as ' stimming' .


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