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jjstar
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21 Nov 2007, 4:03 pm

All you need to do the work is a piece of paper and the questions which you can download on the site. Anything else is optional! And if you want to attend and don't have the cash - you get a scholarship - partial or full and if you don't want to go - you can see watch the video of the event free online. Some people like to go to live events - don't ask me why - I don't get it - but for whatever reason - they do - networking, togetherness - whatever. So be it. Don't make it like it's a scam dude. Because it's not and if you actually read what she's about you'd know that. If she writes books, teaches that's her livlihood. She can charge for whatever she wants. You don't have to buy what she's selling. And it certainly has no bearing on the actual inquiry work that is done. There are yahoo groups online and zero charge forums for the work - that offer framework for people who need that. Also feedback is giving. BTW - Do you work for free? I don't think so. So why do expect her to?


ouinon wrote:
So the workshops, " Living in Joy" at $299, the one-day courses for $75 and the long list of events timetabled all over for the next 18 months, with her or other facilitators from the programme as trainers, at similar prices, are absolutely unnecessary to the work.


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21 Nov 2007, 4:11 pm

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Byron Katie

Byron Kathleen Mitchell (née Reid), better known as Byron Katie (born 1942)[1] is an American speaker and author who teaches a method of self-inquiry known as "The Work".Contents [hide]

Byron Kathleen Reid (more often known as Byron Katie) became severely depressed in her early thirties. She was a businesswoman and mother living in a little town in the high desert of southern California. For almost a decade she spiraled down into paranoia, rage, self-loathing, and constant thoughts of suicide; for the last two years she was often unable to leave her bedroom. Then, one morning in February 1986, while in a mental health treatment facility, [2] she experienced a life-changing realization. Katie's experience was similar to spiritual awakenings described in Buddhist and Hindu traditions under various names; she calls it “waking up to reality.” In that moment of enlightenment, she says,

I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but that when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found a joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment. That joy is in everyone, always.

Katie is not aligned with any particular religion or tradition. She is married to the poet and translator Stephen Mitchell, who co-wrote her first book, Loving What Is and her third book, A Thousand Names for Joy.

Beginnings of The Work

Soon afterward people started seeking Katie out, asking how they could find the freedom that they saw in her.[3] People from her town and eventually from elsewhere came to meet her, and some to even live with her.

Katie’s method of self-inquiry, which she calls The Work, is an embodiment, in words, of the wordless questioning that had woken up in her on that February morning. As reports spread about the transformations people felt they were experiencing through The Work, Katie was invited to present it publicly elsewhere in California, then throughout the United States, and eventually in Europe and across the world.[3] She has brought The Work to people at free public events, in prisons, hospitals, churches, corporations, shelters for survivors of domestic violence, universities and schools, at weekend intensives, and at her nine-day School for The Work.


The Work

The Work is based on four questions and a process called a "turnaround".

The four questions are:
Is it true?
Can you absolutely know that it's true?
How do you react when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?

The Work can be done either by oneself or with another person.

First one identifies a belief or thought related to a topic that causes anxiety or unhappiness. Initially one is encouraged to choose something which feels important, which annoys or troubles you, that someone else does or did: for example "My mother never loved me," or "Tom shouldn't expect me to solve his problems."

One by one, the person doing the Work asks themselves or is asked each of the four questions listed above. If they are doing the Work by themselves, people are asked to write down their response, and if they are doing it with another person they speak their answers aloud.

After the four questions, the thought is literally turned around to its opposite. For example: "My mother never loved me" turns around to "My mother always loved me," Then the person doing The Work sees if they can find ways that this new thought is equally true, or more true, than the original thought.

The turnaround also takes the form of turning the statement around to oneself: "I never loved my mother," or "I never loved me."

Katie sumarizes The Work as: "Judge your neighbor, write it down. Ask four questions, turn it around."

Katie has applied this technique to exploring painful beliefs across many topics including relationships, parenting, illness, death and trauma. She has facilitated the work with audiences in widely varying situations, from ordinary people dealing with financial worries to prison inmates and survivors of armed conflict.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Katie


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ouinon
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21 Nov 2007, 4:14 pm

I'm not saying it's a scam , but that it's a psychological tool that works best within the pyramid structure, encouraging feelings of grandiosity. That if DON'T stay involved, even increase involvement, with the programme, it tends to cause increased dissatisfaction with oneself in the long run, ( all the talk of mental cleansing etc).
I just found out what the "big" course is for , it's necessary for taking the step to train as a facilitator/trainer/animator on the programmes, and earn your living inducting other people.
Great if you can get something out of it with just the free stuff( and not feel increasingly like a course would be a good idea).
It can provoke a refreshingly different perspective on things, but one that can be pernicious ( especially for people prone to taking things literally, for whom unfortunately the approach holds the greatest charms )because after a while you can no longer blame any body or anything else for anything "wrong" in your life, everything bad is your fault, and if you are feeling angry, depressed, miserable, resentful, hopeless, it is your fault. ALWAYS.
It is "fun" to think that if something you say offends someone you can say to them "so what are you believing that is making you experience that as hurtful ?"; it is their fault, not yours. Similarly therefore, if someone says something which bothers you then obviously it can not be what THEY said which is hurting you, but what you are thinking which is hurtful. With enough support, and money for it, you can spend the rest of your life processing through your thoughts, verifying, testing, discarding, etc until you have "cleansed" all the harmful limiting thoughts/beliefs that you had chosen to believe ( again your fault) through your life. It would take infinity of time to clear all that. Meanwhile what has happened to your life while weeding out all those hurtful beliefs of yours ?

PS: I know the steps "asking if a belief is true" etc; i spent many months, even years, using them. I learned them with the Life Training /More to Life organisation.



Last edited by ouinon on 21 Nov 2007, 5:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jjstar
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21 Nov 2007, 4:23 pm

OK - then answer this:

Is it true?
Can you absolutely know that it's true?
How do you react when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?


ouinon wrote:
I'm not saying it's a scam , but that it's a psychological tool that works best within the pyramid structure, encouraging feelings of grandiosity. So much so that in fact tends to cause increased dissatisfaction with oneself in the long run, ( all the talk of mental cleansing etc) IF don't keep involved, increase involvement in fact.
I just found out what the "big" course is for , it's necessary for taking the step to train as a facilitator/trainer/animator on the programmes, and earn your living inducting other people.
Great if you can get something out of it with just the free stuff( and not feel increasingly like a course would be a good idea).
It can provoke a refreshingly different perspective on things, but one that can be pernicious ( especially for people prone to taking things literally, for whom unfortunately the approach holds the greatest charms )because after a while you can no longer blame any body else for anything "wrong" in your life, everything bad is your fault, and if you are feeling angry, depressed, miserable, resentful, hopeless, it is your fault. ALWAYS.

PS: I know the steps "asking if a belief is true" etc; i spent many months, even years, using them. I learned them with the Life Training /More to Life organisation.


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21 Nov 2007, 4:31 pm

jjstar wrote:
OK - then answer this:Is it true?Can you absolutely know that it's true?How do you react when you believe that thought?Who would you be without the thought?

I'm sorry; i don't know what you're asking me about there. Is what true?
About any belief at all, then i'm not sure i know what the meaning of truth is anymore. What is truth? I no longer pay that sort of attention to my thoughts because it drove me even madder than i had already been. And i don't have time for it. I used to spend hours every day examining the painful moments, identifying the "limiting beliefs" , turning them around, etc etc. It was quite simply very bad for me. ( tho it took me a long while to notice because the initial buzz/high had been so totally incredible, and kept me "at it" trying to recreate that hit.) :(

8)



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21 Nov 2007, 5:11 pm

Quote:
ouinon wrote:
jjstar wrote:
OK - then answer this:Is it true?Can you absolutely know that it's true?How do you react when you believe that thought?Who would you be without the thought?

I'm sorry; i don't know what you're asking me about there. Is what true?


What you wrote about her work that:

it's a psychological tool that works best within the pyramid structure, encouraging feelings of grandiosity.



Quote:
About any belief at all, then i'm not sure i know what the meaning of truth is anymore. What is truth?



Your truth. The truth behind your thoughts and judgments. That is truth. So again regarding your statement, *it's a psychological tool that works best within the pyramid structure, encouraging feelings of grandiosity* can you absolutely know that this is true?


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ouinon
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21 Nov 2007, 5:18 pm

My truth.
Don't know what that is. Since throwing out the Lifetraining ideas identical to these I no longer think that i do know, that i could know.

"My truth"! ; like there's a fixed and single me that's thinking/believing, and that those truths are fixed.

"My truth", what is that? The concept in itself is part of the power and the seductiveness and harmfulness of these personal development courses.

8)



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21 Nov 2007, 5:36 pm

jjstar wrote:
I think the way this works is that the person doing the work literally steps aside and allows reality to unfold the way it will, with people doing their thing, issues coming and going, but the person maintaining an awareness of ok - what if I looked at it from it's polar opposite perspective, turned around the problem to not focus on the *problem* but on how I'm perceiving the problem to be.


That is another reason I would have trouble with it. IMO, there is no such thing as "reality" which can "unfold." Reality is simply a word for socially constructed knowledge.

Quote:
So - any reaction you'd be having to your sister, could be examined - taken apart and have the inquiry turn the perspective around - to where are you absolutely certain that x,y, and z are happening - what are you feeling, who would you be without this story then turning the original scenario around to where bottom it up and up is bottom and then looking at it so it no longer resembles the original conflict.....and you kinda get a lot free-er as a result of having done this new kind of *seeing* and you let your sister/s and ultimately yourself off the hook....


Absolute certainty is, in my view, an impossibility. Even gravity is not certain. Hypothesis testing is an inductive, not a deductive, process.

However, the point of my example was not to illustrate a conflict. It was to point out problems with speculative philosophy.


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21 Nov 2007, 5:46 pm

ouinon wrote:
My truth.
Don't know what that is. Since throwing out the Lifetraining ideas identical to these I no longer think that i do know, that i could know.

"My truth"! ; like there's a fixed and single me that's thinking/believing, and that those truths are fixed.

"My truth", what is that? The concept in itself is part of the power and the seductiveness and harmfulness of these personal development courses.

8)


Behind every belief, thought, idea, concept, judgment, defense there is YOU. YOU. person named ouinon, who was brought into this world as a soul, brilliant and beautiful with knowledge, wisdom and understanding and who received conditioning (aka parenting or *education*) that caused the knowing (aka your Truth) to be disguised. It's there. It's never left. It's just been given some heavy duty camafloging and masking with stuff like fears, denial and projection that really, really makes it hard to hear the Truth you know. I know this because it's relative to every single human being on the planet - no exception except maybe saints. They've gotten clear or were brought here to show the Truth to others so that they may recognize it in themselves and wake up. I think really we're all right in the middle of doing just that and peeling away the layers of a lifetime of conditioning and unlearning what is so foreign to our True natures.

Ya know..? :)


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21 Nov 2007, 6:02 pm

Quote:
nominalist wrote:
jjstar wrote:
I think the way this works is that the person doing the work literally steps aside and allows reality to unfold the way it will, with people doing their thing, issues coming and going, but the person maintaining an awareness of ok - what if I looked at it from it's polar opposite perspective, turned around the problem to not focus on the *problem* but on how I'm perceiving the problem to be.


That is another reason I would have trouble with it. IMO, there is no such thing as "reality" which can "unfold." Reality is simply a word for socially constructed knowledge.


Reality is everything that is happening. Reality unfolds as it will, in spite of making plans. Reality wins every time. The only thing you can change is how you perceive it.

Quote:
Quote:
So - any reaction you'd be having to your sister, could be examined - taken apart and have the inquiry turn the perspective around - to where are you absolutely certain that x,y, and z are happening - what are you feeling, who would you be without this story then turning the original scenario around to where bottom it up and up is bottom and then looking at it so it no longer resembles the original conflict.....and you kinda get a lot free-er as a result of having done this new kind of *seeing* and you let your sister/s and ultimately yourself off the hook....


Quote:
Absolute certainty is, in my view, an impossibility. Even gravity is not certain. Hypothesis testing is an inductive, not a deductive, process.



I think the only absolute certainty one can be clear on is that there are no absolutes. But the utilizing free will in choosing our reality is all we have. That is certain. Is this an absolute certainty? No. There could be other options that I'm not aware of.


Quote:
However, the point of my example was not to illustrate a conflict. It was to point out problems with speculative philosophy.


Self-inquiry isn't on the same page as speculative philosophy. Not when you're dealing with the basic Self behind the facade.


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21 Nov 2007, 6:48 pm

jjstar wrote:
Reality is everything that is happening. Reality unfolds as it will, in spite of making plans. Reality wins every time. The only thing you can change is how you perceive it.


To me, that is a way of socially constructing knowledge. There are many definitions of "reality." You provided your own. As a sociologist, I simply say that reality is what people, in interaction, say is reality.

Quote:
I think the only absolute certainty one can be clear on is that there are no absolutes. But the utilizing free will in choosing our reality is all we have. That is certain. Is this an absolute certainty? No. There could be other options that I'm not aware of.


I agree with you that knowledge is relative. In other words, reality is socially constructed. It does not exist apart from our constructions.

Quote:
Self-inquiry isn't on the same page as speculative philosophy. Not when you're dealing with the basic Self behind the facade.


Technically, self-inquiry would be ontology, which is a branch of metaphysics (speculative philosophy). Now, I admit I do it (self-inquiry) myself. However, I am continually attempting to question my assumptions.


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22 Nov 2007, 7:20 am

Mark, what gets us in trouble (in Aspie-dom) is keeping things in theory and thought. Major trouble area for us. We can go round and round and up and down and never go through these matters to the crux. I think this terrifies us to even consider taking it from relativity and speculation into an unknown realm of practice. This is why in the finding solutions, truth must be sought via work. Plain and simple - from the drawing board out there to the multi-layered psyche that resides within. Metaphysics no longer applies to the new paradigm of Truth. Theory is now replaced with reality in all of its guises. Acceptance takes forefront placement leaving conflict behind.



nominalist wrote:
jjstar wrote:
Reality is everything that is happening. Reality unfolds as it will, in spite of making plans. Reality wins every time. The only thing you can change is how you perceive it.


To me, that is a way of socially constructing knowledge. There are many definitions of "reality." You provided your own. As a sociologist, I simply say that reality is what people, in interaction, say is reality.

Quote:
I think the only absolute certainty one can be clear on is that there are no absolutes. But the utilizing free will in choosing our reality is all we have. That is certain. Is this an absolute certainty? No. There could be other options that I'm not aware of.


I agree with you that knowledge is relative. In other words, reality is socially constructed. It does not exist apart from our constructions.

Quote:
Self-inquiry isn't on the same page as speculative philosophy. Not when you're dealing with the basic Self behind the facade.


Technically, self-inquiry would be ontology, which is a branch of metaphysics (speculative philosophy). Now, I admit I do it (self-inquiry) myself. However, I am continually attempting to question my assumptions.


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22 Nov 2007, 7:25 am

Isn't this all very airy-fairy. I like to see practical advice that even I can follow.


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22 Nov 2007, 7:43 am

Pandora wrote:
Isn't this all very airy-fairy. I like to see practical advice that even I can follow.


Have you ever been given advice before? How has that worked out for you?


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22 Nov 2007, 7:46 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Tu1xr0-Lo[/youtube]


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22 Nov 2007, 8:58 am

jjstar wrote:
Mark, what gets us in trouble (in Aspie-dom) is keeping things in theory and thought. Major trouble area for us. We can go round and round and up and down and never go through these matters to the crux.


I do like theory. (I am a social theorist.) However, I am also a neopragmatist. That is to say, I regard truth as that which works in particular contexts. For that reason, I like a constructivist modality called coherence therapy:

http://www.psychresources.net/

My concern is with separating truth claims from particular individual and social contexts.

Quote:
I think this terrifies us to even consider taking it from relativity and speculation into an unknown realm of practice.


Well, for a few years, I attended quarterly seminars in Parker Palmer's Formation:

http://www.league.org/league/projects/formation/about.htm

I had some disagreements with it (like the time we were asked to listen to a rock, twig, etc.), but overall I felt as though it was beneficial.

Quote:
This is why in the finding solutions, truth must be sought via work. Plain and simple - from the drawing board out there to the multi-layered psyche that resides within. Metaphysics no longer applies to the new paradigm of Truth. Theory is now replaced with reality in all of its guises. Acceptance takes forefront placement leaving conflict behind.


To me, that implies that reality exists. I do not personally agree with that idea. IMO, reality or truth is simply a name for socially constructed knowledge.

I was not always a nominalist, and I realize that my views are now in the minority (almost everywhere). However, nominalism and poststructuralism are how I understand my experiences. I appreciate, and respect, that your perspective is different, but I can't accept a paradigm for what I believe is merely an abstraction (truth).


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