no cure? Why not?

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The thing is that being AS both prevents me from doing a lot of the social stuff that people of my age often do, and prevents me from wanting to do it. So in a sense it's neutral.

You couldn't cure me without turning me into a completely different person. I have absolutely no idea what it would even mean to be cured.

I would not like a cure because I don't like the thought of socializing anyways and I can't imagine it being any better if I were an NT.

I think I my third grade self could have chosen though it would have been a whole hearted yes. Now I am past all that crap and I have come to know me and a couple other people. so now that I am a fully developed big person I think I don't want one.

I don't want a "cure" because there is nothing objectively "wrong" with me, society considers me "defective" simply because I don't fit with the extroversion-centered and groupthink-centered thought processes of NTs.

Or maybe that's just a TOTALLY NORMAL introvert thing in general to have higher then average levels of beta-endorphins. How typical of our extroversion-centered society to consider the extroverted brain "normal"

That is really interesting. I have a low pain threshold, I think I am often pretty low in endorphins..

I know a lot of aspies who say they enjoy being alone and can entertain themselves with interests and activities.

But for me I cant be alone for very long... I like being with people and enjoy talking to them and wish I could spend more time with them. Being socially impaired ruins this for me.

I wonder if there is a link between me having a lower pain threshold and me wanting to be with people. Hmmm....



Yes this is not fair to do that. Studies show that about 30% of the population is introverted, that figure is high enough to indicate that being introverted is a common human state.

How do you explain autistic people who like socializing then? Or the many, many people who are GF/CF and just as autistic as before? For instance, GF/CF doesn't make me even one tiny bit less autistic. Neither do probiotics.

And opiates, even too many of them for me to handle, don't make me more autistic, they just make me some combination of sleepy, nauseated, and migraine- and seizure-prone, and on exactly one occasion goofy and out-of-it (but not happy). And I don't generally get high off opiates or have any desire to stay on them, nor do I get any pleasant feeling whatsoever out of gluten or casein, even after a long time on a GF/CF diet (and going back on them even after a long time on that diet does not cause me the other symptoms that opiates cause me either). A few times, in emergency rooms, I have been given opiates in an IV form, and experienced something similar to what druggies feel when they call something a "rush", something they like. I would never have recognized it as such without someone explaining it though, because I feel such a sensation in a purely unpleasant sense -- in other words, I'm not wired for heroin addiction (people who aren't, don't experience that stuff as pleasant, and a lot of people aren't -- people who are, on the other hand, experience a high they find pleasant as well as a rush they find pleasant, whereas I don't experience either, I just experience those same things as unpleasant).

Additionally, a person who is on opiates in a long-term way, which is how a person would be who somehow got opiates off of gluten and casein, gets no high off of them whatsoever. Addicts are the only ones who get high off them for an extended period of time, and that is because they keep raising and raising the dosage all the time. Patients on long-term opiate treatment develop a physical dependence on them, but not a psychological dependence, unless they are misusing the drugs they are prescribed, because after awhile there is no high or rush or anything addicts want. Patients on long-term opiate treatment who are non-autistic, are just as social as they always were, they just have less pain (which can in fact make them more able to be social than when they were in too much pain to be social).

So, if a person were to want to get high off of gluten and casein (were this even possible), they would have to eat ever-increasing amounts of gluten and casein to do so. I certainly do nothing like that, nor do any autistic people I know, although I do know some autistic people with celiac, and they don't eat gluten and sometimes casein. And in their cases they are no less autistic, they just have fewer digestive problems.

In addition, one would think that if gluten and casein caused opiate-like symptoms, that a person who had been GF/CF for many years, could die of opiate overdose after suddenly eating a whole lot of gluten and casein. I have never heard of that happening. (And if there is some kind of leveling-off point past which a person can't have any more opiates released into their system, then there is also no possibility of a long-term high, because a person would reach that leveling-off point and stay at it, and then cease to feel any high from these foods at all.) One would also expect symptoms such as severely depressed breathing to be present (and depressed breathing is not the same thing as asthma, it means very slow, shallow breathing). And also small pupils (whereas many autistic people actually have very large pupils).

So... basically... if you take your theory logically, it doesn't make sense. Yes, some people are celiac etc. The vast majority of autistic/celiac people I know don't become more social after they stop eating gluten and casein, unless it's because the pain was making them less able to socialize. (And that is true of any other pain-causing condition as well.)

Additionally, I socialize every day, and it feels good to me to do so. I socialize online of course (like everyone here is doing), and I also have a cat and a dog who it feels good to socialize with (the cat lives here every day, the dog goes somewhere else on weekends), and a human friend that it feels good to socialize with that I see almost every day at this point. According to your theory, this is not possible for an autistic person, because I'd be too wrapped up in my supposed opiate-induced high to socialize with people.

Additionally, the differences that exist in autistic people (which have been studied to death by now) are present in both social and non-social situations, which makes the idea that socialization is the only thing affected by being autistic become less and less likely. Additionally, one would expect need for the GF/CF diet to be correlated to introversion (by which I'm meaning how much or little desire a person has for socialization), in both autistic and non-autistic people. And I haven't seen that to be the case -- I know extraverted autistic people who need it, as well as introverted ones, and also the same in people who don't need it.

And does opiate addiction make people score higher than normal on Block Design, or have a discrepancy between tested IQ on Weschler scales versus Raven's Progressive Matrices? Does it normally result in a peculiarly autistic pattern of strengths? Do children who have to take opiates early in life due to pain conditions develop autism, including autistic talents?

So... none of that theory makes sense, but way to insult a lot of autistic people.

zendell just loves finding environmental scapegoats for the "real" reason for autism and then presenting it as fact. He isn't a scientist and has stated that he doesn't always understand what he's reading, yet he'll quote it as Gospel anyways. I find most of theories insulting as they generally blame the "mother".
The fact is there a gazillion speculations out there and only a few known true, constant correlations with autism.

I went looking for articles about autism and endorphins and I found some studies which found that autistics had higher than average endorphin levels. The search also showed studies where the opposite had been the case: autistics with lower endorphins.

http://www.autism.org/social.html

I dont know how scientific this page is or anything, but perhaps endorphins do play a part in how sociable someone might be.. Perhaps there are ASD people with high natural endorphins, some with medium and some with low natural endorphins.

Autistic people and Aspergers people seem to display variety in their needs for aloneness or company and there seems to be more than one way in which this can present itself.

Anyway very confusing...

I never wrote that I have a problem with autism or being introverted. I merely offered an explanation of one cause autistics being happy alone and thinking they don't want to be cured. I would agree with you that's it's normal if they didn't trace the problem to a defective enzyme. Some NTs acquire this problem (something inhibiting the enzyme that digests these foods) as adults.

Last edited by zendell on 24 Jan 2008, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I used to have a low pain threshold and also wanted to be around other people. The gfcf diet normalized my pain threshold and made we want to be around people even more.

I am not so sure people actually understand NTs.

This is very easy to explain. Opiates make a person feel good. People who feel better have less incentive to go do something to feel good. Opiates reduce the need to socialize. I didn't write that the slightest bit of opiates causes a person to be completely self-absorbed and avoid others. I liked socializing even when I had high levels of opiates. I like it even more when I'm on the gfcf diet. Heroin addicts like to socialize too, just not as much as when they're not using heroin. The anecdotal report that the diet or probiotics don't work for you means nothing. Not everyone with AS has trouble digesting wheat and milk. I never said this was the sole cause of autism. They both made a huge difference for me. I'm definitely less autistic now. Scientific studies show these make others less autistic. Sorry to hear it didn't help you.

I used to feel like a drug addict except I was addicted to wheat and milk. I definitely felt good eating these foods and couldn't stop eating them. I ended up eating them more and more often until they were the only foods I ate. I tried to stop because I was worried about celiac disease but every time I tried to stop I went through withdraw and had to eat these foods again. People noticed and joked about this at work and I told them I was addicted. This was all before I ever heard of an opiate connection. I had no idea why this was happening and neither did my doctor. Many parents report that wheat and milk is all their autistic kids will eat because they are addicted to them.

You wrote one would expect shallow breathing. I had this problem for years. Doctor couldn't explain it. It went away after I went on the gfcf diet and now my breathing is normal.



It's not my theory. A connection between opiates and autism was found in 1979 and dozens of researchers and studies have found there is a connection. You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with science. Also, the gluten problem in autism is unrelated to celiac disease.



I never wrote that opiates make it impossible to socialize. I also never wrote that this problem occurs in everyone with autism. Nor did I write that opiates cause every symptom of autism. I merely wrote that opiates is what allows some autistics to feel good being autistic and that it may explain why they don't think they want to be cured.

I really don't see how quoting the findings of scientific research insults autistic people. Here's a link to dozens of scientific studies (there's probably over 100) that have found a connection between opiates and autism - http://www.autismndi.com/news/display.a ... 0721150209

These responses really get old after awhile.
1. I'm not looking for a scapegoat
2. The "real" reason for autism isn't known
3. There's extensive scientific evidence that environmental factors are involved
4. I don't think I ever blamed anyone's mother.
5. If you think autism is genetic, then you are blaming the mother (her genes are involved)
6. What's wrong with being open-minded and considering all possible causes?
7. These aren't my theories.
8. I can't help it if science insults you.

despite the fact that i have very few friends, all my friends are true and trustworthy why would i want to be normal just for the sake of having a whole load of fake, mask wearing people too call friends aswell?

am classically autistic,and do not want a cure [on self] either,many people automatically assume those with c/k autism would want cures but always ask the aspies opinion.
am on the mf/lf end and require 24 hr res. support,but am have grown up this way,have improved along the way and don't know any different,am would not want to change the very core of am with a cure,am do not want to change like that.
Am would like something to help at least weaken and/or help with the worst traits,which would not be a cure,but more management of autism to a copeable level.

Am think there should eventually be choice for people,but only if they were able to tell the child was going to be profoundly disabled by it,and therapy and support wouldn't add much improvement,and only if autism specialists,neutral people etc were involved in giving say as well as parents.
For those born,and able enough to say if they would want a cure,there should be an option there,it is their choice afterall.


Am can't actually see how a cure would work for anyone but people who were still babies inside belly though,how would it work on an already established autistic? am can only see better management of traits being more likely,but then am know nothing about science beyond how to spell the word.

Reasons for the rejection of the idea of a cure.

(1) There is, and has never been, a treatment that significantly impacts our core symptoms of autism/Aspergers. (I consider this kind of treatment to be a "major treatment"; and for other treatments that do not impact the core symptoms of autism/Aspergers in a significant way, I'd consider them either "not treatments" or "anecdotal treatments" or "minimal treatments"

(Many with autism and many neurotypicals tend to focus on the issue of a cure for autism, and express differing views about this, though it would seem that one important step before this issue has relevance, and importance, is the issue of a major treatment, and, there has never been a major treatment).

Due to the lack of a major treatment, there has been no basis for many with autism and many neurotypicals to say anything (whether positive or negative) about the issue of a treatment or cure for autism. That is, in the absence of any major treatments, many find themselves left with the alternative to reject the idea of a major treatment and cure, and reject any efforts directed toward developing a major treatment or cure. The rejection is psychological. The idea of a major treatment and cure is rejected because there has never been any.

Many persons who have been imprisoned for most of their lives, such as 30-50 years, gradually become dependent on the prison walls, and have no need or interest in leaving, are frightened to do so, and will reject doing so. At first they hate the walls. Then they get used to them. Then they depend on them.

(2) All people with autism and Aspergers have never experienced anything different than autism and Aspergers, and as such, many find they do not have a sufficient basis to accept the idea of a major treatment or cure, nor efforts made in developing both. If, hypothetically, autism was acquired between 10 and 15 years old, then there would be a basis for all with autism and all neurotypicals to say they would like a treatment or cure that restored their prior level of functioning. In addition, since we have never experienced anything different, many with autism and many neurotypicals will reject the ideas of major treatment and cure as things that are aimed to not treat or cure, but rather, change the very nature of autistic people into something different than what they are. That is, they no nothing different than autism, and as such, will consider any treatment to be a threat to their very persons (identity, personality, self, mind, thought, emotion, beliefs, ideas, dreams, desires, goals, abilities, life style, etc).

(3) Lack of courage, and cowardice. Many autistic persons and many neurotypicals, due to some or all of the factors mentioned above, and likely other factors, have at the core a lack of courage to be open to possibility that a major treatment or cure would be beneficial for many or most with autism. Instead, many with autism and many neurotypicals fear the idea of a major treatment or cure, conceiving of them as things that will change their person hood so dramatically that they will cease to be who they once were. A consideration based on intense psychological cowardice and speculation. And a lack of courage to be open to other possibilities.

(4) Anti-social psychological aggression. Many with autism and many neurotypicals will move beyond the ideological rejection of the possibility of a major treatment or cure, to personally demeaning, threatening, mocking, and libeling people and organizations who are devoted to the possibility of autism treatment and/or cure. This conduct arises from the above discussed considerations, and likely others, and seems to be a further psychological step beyond the more passive ideological rejection.

(5) Depraved indifference. It seems reasonable to consider those who refuse to take part in the possibility of major treatment development as people who are engaging in depraved indifference about their own well being, or the well being of their children, etc. A distant speculation: Hypothetically, if a major treatment was developed, and it was rejected by many parents of autistic children on the various bases mentioned above, it would seem reasonable to consider the parents to be committing the crime of depraved indifference to human life. On the other hand, if hypothetically the major treatment caused, as many speculate out of psychological fear, autistic people to radically change in nature as people, to the extent that their former selves, personalities, identities, etc, were no longer present, then it would seem obvious that this major treatment would be rejected with good basis by medicine and those with autism and neurotypicals.