We are *NOT* autistic

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I think you want us to play the game of Semantics, but I don't like that game, it's boring.

Daniel,

The DSM doesn't really have that big of a grey area.

ShadesOfMe,

I know how you feel. If you look at the latest DSMs(actally the last couple), AS people have a tendency to a lot of the autistic symptoms. They may not be as necessary, more controllable, and SEEM more normal, but they are still there. Who knows, some say NTs stim, for example. Still, I think I do it more. I don't HAVE to, but there is a definite tendency. Some of the abilities and deficiencies, likes and dislikes, sensitivities and tolerance, are in both.

Heck, last Friday, “law and order” had an episode with people with mental disorders. One of them was a girl with William's syndrome. I think she may have really had it. If not, she was a good actress, etc... If not for the look, skillset, and the story, you might have thought she was autistic. She was well behaved, curious, had sensitive hearing, was very honest, had a great memory. At one point it even looked like she might have been stimming. So who knows.

And YEAH, I HATE to be associated with people with real mental problems, etc... In person, I generally can't stand them. Still, it has ALWAYS been my contention that the average person could be a LOT smarter. I know I am not living up to my potential, and so many others don't even try. And many are DISCOURAGED from doing more, and autistics are certainly among them. So who is to say. Frankly, I would like to see ANY decent person do their best.

BTW I probably couldn't stand the kid with William's syndrome in person because she WANTED hugs, gave small talk, and probably wasn't too bright outside of the limited area. In the show, I thought she was great.

The gray area I'm referring to is those with autistic disorder without mental retardation who gain adequate speech as they develop (albeit delayed), but still have autistic disorder due to the other few points under "qualitative impairments in communication".

It also states that differentiating between the two can be problematic in some cases, probably due to the gray area above, i.e., those with AD who're "high-functioning".

I guess I just haven't grasped my autistic disorder diagnosis yet, i.e., I'm not THAT bad. Then I see people with AS who do and accomplish "normal" activities that I'd have no hope in achieving, I'm far worst than they are. Then I have people, supposed experts tell me that Asperger's isn't different to autism other than the amount of speech and "stimming" (verbal impairment and constant sensory overloads). Then I realize that hey, I always am stimming; I always sway when I stand, and I cannot initiate and sustain a conversation with another out there at all, plus I was clearly autistic in early childhood (<3): basic receptive and expressive language, no imaginative play, no desire to interact with my peers at all.

It just confuses me.

Last edited by Danielismyname on 26 Feb 2008, 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

I think maybe these are all trivial distinctions, though we should all be forgiven if we tend to obsessively latch onto such distinctions.

Despite the fact that many of us often feel like we're on the wrong planet and surrounded by aliens, we are all people on this planet, except for the animals of course, and we all have the same problems to overcome. We're all equiped with different sets of tools for overcoming these problems. Some of us are more well equiped than others. Some of us have tool sets that are so incomplete that they are inadequate to our needs and we require assistance from others.

Aspie, autie, NT, black, white, male, female, alien, other... what difference does it make?
Like somebody's signature says, "It's all just a [expletive] lable."

dead on. i just asked my sons psych about all this yesterday and she told me the same thing. in fact she said AS and HFA can be used interchangebly.

so basically, you have the umbrella term of pervasive developmental disorders. under that term are the ASD's. classic autism being at the low functioning end and aspergers being at the high functioning end of the spectrum. but some people with classic autism can become higher functioning with therapy. it's all confusing.

The "spectrum" actually refers to a set of behaviors, not to any particular genetic anomalies... Mental health professionals use labels (autism, bipolar, etc.) to convey lots of information (here, the "[behavior] presentations" of patients) in a very concise format (though it may not fit the individual precisely).

When sets of behaviors are similar, they are said to be related on a spectrum, though in reality, the disorders that cause such sets of behaviors may in no other way be related. Thus, autism, AS, ADD/ADHD, NVLD, even Tourettes and schizophrenia are behaviorally related (the last two being more like "cousins" to the more neuclear family of behaviors that constitutes the commonly referenced "spectrum"). Whether they are genetically related or not has yet to be determined.

To simplify, "[kanner-type] autism" refers to a set of behaviors that are somewhat different than the set of behaviors associated with "asperger's syndrome". Most therapists nowadays think of this difference as primarily concerning intensity (how problematic the issues are) or degree of verbal/social ability (whether the kid talks/interacts with others or not). Thus, if the behaviors change over time, so does the label/diagnosis. This is necessary so that therapists can convey that the child talks/interacts or has greater ability/skills when they discuss their case or similar cases. Labels/diagnoses are fluid because they depend solely on the set of behaviors presented and those sets tend to change with time, training, environment, etc.

Please don't think that anyone is "stuck" with a label. We are not our diagnoses. Diagnoses only exist to identify issues we struggle with at a given point in time. It really is sad when I see so many parents hear their child has autism or asperger's and they immediately think, "he's going to be like this forever!" or worse, they treat their child as though that were the case and deny him invaluable opportunities that would otherwise have caused progress then think, "See? He can't do it. Stop trying to change his behaviors. He's broken and can't be helped."

We are NOT broken. We may have certain tendencies and ways of processing information that may even be to our benefit. We may experince difficulties, but ultimately we can learn to overcome them. We're smart. We may even be classified in the above average category. But we may also need to be taught differently in order to develop ourselves socially. So, please... don't give up on any of us just because we have these labels. Challenge us appropriately and we may suprise you yet.

Last edited by LqdCrct on 26 Feb 2008, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

From what I have read about autism, and AS, there are a number of different genes that seem to cause it, as well as possibly some environmental factors too. The only thing that seems to be true is that there seem to be many, many different combinations of all the symptoms with some people having some but not other symptoms, ie some people have sensory issues and some dont, some dont have strong special interests, some are more socially impaired... some are mathematical, some are good with words...

All this can lead to a lot of confusion, particularly for those who are in the area between AS and Classic Autism, or those in the area between AS and NT....

I'm no expert... but in response to someone's [not going back to find it now] post that maybe classic autistics' habits are "worse" than those with Asperger's... couldn't one necessarily say that might be because those with Asperger's can understand that what they're doing will be considered undesirable/unacceptable? I know that I try much harder to hide my quirks if I see people reacting negatively. But with classic autism, one wouldn't necessarily understand this as easily with a language delay. And at the HFA end of the spectrum, of course the line becomes blurred, because language and understanding are gained.

I am not taking sides, though I have an opinion. Just thought I'd share my thoughts.

If we was a spectrum of colors we would be a shade of Autistic.

I'm on WP because it's not 'aspies only'. I tried that out, it didn't work, I left the places, although my official diagnosis is 'very hf F.84.5 (which is AS in ICD-10)'. (Well, of course the paper just says 'F.84.5 Asperger-Syndrome', but that's not the point, so I'm twisting it.)

Given that I have nothing really severe besides an ASD, no mental issues such as depression, no anxiety, not even disorders such as OCD, nothing and thus functioning really good in real life (I think I do, please don't try to change my mind about it), the more I learn, the more I feel more lf than most folks here in respects to autism symptoms and behaviour. And that's not always a nice thought, although I'm pretty much used to it by now, because I know nobody of the many many cool people would mind it.

I'm very very glad WP is explicitly saying that it's open to the whole spectrum. I like how people with lf, whether it be 'lf aspies' or 'lf auties' are not sorted in 'special' forums.

Where would I go anyway? I just got okay with not needing to fit one place on the inside! Spares me the confusion.


That idea to exclude and separate would be plain horrible. I had to get this off my chest, I don't wish to repeat that experience I already made.


There is one thing that is important to remember tough. And that is that WP doesn't represent Asperger's. Sorry, but no. The fair majority of people here are hf. People often forget that AS is a spectrum in itself too and that there is no majority of hf aspies on that spectrum.

There is probably a good reason why there are few auties/people with kanner's/autistic people here, which may be the same reason why not a whole lot of the 'lf AS' folks are on here too.


Life's very different for the all the people on the spectrum. Even for two people who're supposedly in the exact same place.

A severe sensory integration disorder can make running in circles a good thing. Or OCD can make it happen, but I wouldn't know whether it would be such a good thing. So, saying the same individual has autism... of course you are not going to run in circles if you have autism too. Maybe only if you a SID or an OCD too. That's why someone said autism itself only doesn't make anyone run in circles.

Someone once said to me: 'Autism tends to come with many many more things.'
I agree.

What you see with your eyes is not what's going on on the inside.
Usually.
Not going to say 'always' to avoid generalisation.

I think that this is a very important distinction. We are not autists. We are their non-autistic doppelgangers. To be slightly cornball, it could be said that we "walk in both worlds, but a shadow in either."

Aspies don't need advocacy. It's in the same class of disorders as ADHD and schizotypal personality disorder. It shouldn't even be considered, in itself, an Axis I disorder. We are sympathetic toward those who are truly disabled, though, because we see ghosts of ourselves within them.

It's not. One severely damages development...and the other does not.

You mean...you've never done that? O.o o.O O.O I like to spin in circles while I walk! It's really fun! You should try it!

Of course they were acting like no one was even there. That's the definition of autism. Rather than being stupid, which isn't quite the case with them, they simply have little, if any, connection with their surroundings. They're in "lala land." It isn't a lack of awareness, though: it just doesn't occur to them to care. Even so, this isn't quite intentional. It's like the semi-voluntary attention-getting behavior that marks ADHD, for, although this attention-getting behavior seems voluntary, the person doing it is often mortified by its consequences and may earnestly want to stop doing it. The same is so in autism: although they may understand the concept of coming out of their fairy land, can even do so for brief periods and dearly want to stay out of it, they are simply doing what is in their nature. Am I being clear here?

Think of it as a good husband who's had a few too many drinks, for analogy: he may know that he's being offensive toward his wife, he may even try to tearfully apologize to his wife even during his state of drunkeness, but he wakes up with his bags packed and a notice that his wife is staying with her mother until he leaves. During his state of drunkeness, he's aware of the impropriety of his actions and feels that they are wrong, but he finds he can't help himself.

When I try to explain these things to dedicated NTs, it feels like talking to a brick wall. Essentially, human beings are nothing but big bags of narcotics. Whether you're NT, AS, or schizophrenic, that's all you are and all you'll ever be: a big, fat bag of narcotics. It's a crude, analogous way of stating it, but accepting this causes all these disorders, ranging from ADHD to catatonic schizophrenia, to make ten million times more sense. You're a pretty sophisticated, little bag, though, I'll grant you.

Gah. I got side-tracked, so I'm having to come back and edit behind myself. Instead of fiddling with the above, let me append.

Think of high functioning autists, such as Aspies, as being on a drug. This drug sometimes makes them slightly, even significantly, more intelligent than most people. However, it can also make them very dull in character and narrow in their patterns of thought. Think of a severely low functioning autist as someone whose exposure to similar substances has led to lasting brain damage and pervasive, debilitative developmental impairments. This is kinda why we are associated with autists. Similar principles seem to be at work.

Last edited by Griff on 26 Feb 2008, 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

I read this on the first page of this thread and want to clarify it....

While it is true that certain behaviors (by the time people on the spectrum reach adulthood) do qualify as asperger's-type as opposed to kanner's-type (they are both still classified as autism), it is not true that a person must be an adult in order to have asperger's. This means that while one kid with straight kanner-type autism can (often) develop well enough over the next 10-20 years or so to be classified as Asperger's, another child can start out with Asperger's if they start out better developed than the first kid.

However, some autistic kids are not provided the proper education/training to progress developmentally to a significant degree (which is unfortunate to say the very least) and do maintain their diagnosis of kanner autism throughout their lifetime. On the other end oft he spectrum, many asperger kids can develop over the next 10-20 years and become relatively NT in their behavior sets.

Really, it's just a matter of development/impairment and rate of progress. It's believed that there is a relation between higher IQs (meaning scores, not actual "intelligence") and greater developmental progress over time, but those kids can also start out anywhere on that spectrum and where they end up in later life is thus dependent on their rate of learning/opportunity/development.

Last edited by LqdCrct on 26 Feb 2008, 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

I came here because my son is autistic and considered "very high functioning". I soon realized though, that I identify more with the Aspies than NTs. So, I'm here for several reasons now. The older my son gets, the more he seems to related to Aspies more than not. He speaks almost normally, functions at grade level but still has a very Aspie demeanor.
He is still different because of his developmental delays. Speaking is still a "second language" to him. For me, speech is halted with "brain farts" but still think in words. He still echoes a lot and repeats. He doesn't stim hardly at all, though. He makes eye contact a lot. Probably more than me.

I think we both have autistic brains.

EXCELLENT INFO. where on earth did you find that?

The distinction is largely semantic:
Google link

"Having reviewed the literature, we may be able to answer the question, is there a
difference between Asperger's syndrome and High Functioning Autism? The reply is
that the research and clinical experience would suggest that there is no clear evidence
that they are different disorders. Their similarities are greater than their differences. We
appear to be taking, particularly in Europe and Australia, a dimensional view of autism
and Asperger' syndrome rather than a categorical approach. (Leekam, Libby, Wing
Gould and Gillberg 2000). At present both terms can be used interchangeably in clinical
practice."

I'm finishing my triple major in behavior psych, social psych, and women's studies. It's strange, really: what seems to be taken for granted in psych circles and seems simple is all kinds of hard to understand apparently if you're not exposed to it all the time. So, I just summarized what I've learned on the topic over the years to make it easier for people.

My school actually has an internationally recognized autism clinic right on campus and it's home to the international association for behavior analysis. So far, B.A. has proven the most effective method for getting non-verbal autistic kids onto the developmental roadway. It's really amazing to see first hand. It makes everything else seem so simple when you can see all the theories and therapies and research in action.