Nonverbal communication and bias against AS individuals

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Office Parties would not exist if no one enjoyed them. If you were not Aspie, velodog, do you think you'd still hate them?

I didn't claim to speak for anyone else slowmutant. While many people do enjoy Office Parties there are also people not on the spectrum who go out of a sense of obligation to keep Management happy, as opposed to going because they want to. As you have noted in other posts, NTs are not so different from us in that they often feel trapped by some of the same social obligations that can bother people on the spectrum.

Stop blaming women, Ouinon. If women make such a difference, then why do they earn so much less than men? In general, women are easier to work for because they are more inclusive and better managers. They take care of their employees better, on average, which is what disadvantaged groups usually need (among other things).

I think it would make more sense to blame the loss of loyalty employers feel for their employees. It used to be that you could stay with the same company for life, but now if you do you are seen as someone who hasn't got what it takes to hustle something better. Employers don't look after their employees as much as they used to. People are left to fend for themselves more, which takes more skill than many people have. And also, of course, things are much faster paced than they used to be, and it's harder for people to keep up. Increasing social demands are just one way of making the workplace more cliquey, which is maybe what people do when they feel more insecure.

Long before I knew about AS, I became aware that I was not as adept at NVC as most of my peers. So I made a concerted effort to learn as much about it as possible. I read about it and observed carefully. This made a big difference in my ability to understand other people's NVC. I also learned to communicate nonverbally, at least in a basic way. And I continue to work at improving my NVC skills.

Unfortunately, I have found that the more subtle aspects of my NVC are beyond my control. No matter what, I always look stiff, uncomfortable, "stand-off-ish". Even when I am feeling completely at ease. I've tried a lot of different things to change this (stretching, breathing exercises, and other relaxation techniques), but it seems to truly be beyond my control. Similarly, when I am content, my face appears sad. I cannot control this either.

So it seems that no matter how much effort I put into improving my NVC skills, I will always have to choose between being perceived as "stand-off-ish", "mopey", "wishy-washy", etc. and explaining that I have AS and then being associated with all the assumptions, stereotypes, and misinformation that go with that label. I have yet to determine which of these two options is more advantageous in the long-run.

Recent research indicates that men talk just as much as women:

http://www.livescience.com/health/070705_chatty_men.html

Some women tend to babble, using a great many words to express a relative few ideas. They'll go and on about nothing worth listening to. Some men do this as well. Others, like myself, usually don't say much, but when they really open up, they can ramble as well. It's about different communicating styles. It's about style versus substance versus method of delivery.

Knowing when to shut up is a virtue many Aspies lack.

from the mouths of babes come truth

Merle

EvilKimEvil, thank you for data and link.

Your post reminded me that I had already come across this research. However there is nothing in the study to show what conversation rates are in mixed environments as opposed to single sex environments, as far as I can see.

What if mixed-sex environments increase the volume of complex, verbal and non-verbal, communication going on?

What if workplaces becoming mixed-sex transformed them into "mating areas", with twice as much, or twice as complicated, non-verbal communication as a result?

What if mixed workplaces are actually "distracting", time-wasting, increasingly challenging environments for AS because some at least of the activity, specifically the communication, is sex related? Studies have already shown that mixed-sex schools impact negatively on girls academic progress. What if mixed-sex work places were bad/disadvantageous for AS?

I'm wondering whether the movement towards mixed-sex environments of the last 100 years has been a major factor in making life harder for AS.

There is so much "more" non-verbal communication to "do" and understand" in mixed sex environments. There is much much more ( agenda, subplots, signalling etc) "going on" between people.

As I said: The ability to fake it once in a while.
In and of itself, not necessarily an easy thing to do... but useful under the right circumstances. I had to play at normal for the interview to get my job, but I haven't even come close to playing that part since then. Made me bloody uncomfortable too.


As long as nobody is hindering anyone else's ability to work, it doesn't matter... I've found.
And yes, some people can be hindered in their working by trivial and stupid things... and I avoid those where possible.... but otherwise, I don't feel particularly compelled to go to every leaving party arranged for the employees of this place, and I don't go to the christmas party / dinner / whatever either. I don't interact with any of them outside a working environment, and WITHIN the working environment they are quite used to my quirks.

LOL (literally). Spent the first part of a drunken Office Christmas party stripping down the boss' mistress in front of the staff and helping her Xerox her boobs (had an autographed copy hanging on my living room wall for years.

Unfortunately, at the time, I had no idea she was the boss' mistress. Ah, Cold Ethyl, you guileful minx.

Liquor? I don't even like her.

Hmm... In my own lifetime and experiences I've often found it very difficult to function in a nonverbal setting as, there is a great amount of difficult for myself that is.I'm not sure how others in the Autistic spectrum do yet, in my own words I'm terrible at such for, the mere fact, reading body lanquage and other such notions has never came easy for me despite trying constantly over and over.Still, I'm not giving up on this altogether merely pointing out that nonverbal communication is an area where I tend to struggle.


ProfessorX

Thanks for the understanding Velodog. I originally went through with my DX because I naively thought that someone who be able to help me find my strengths and weaknesses and give me more insight to best jobs for me then I seemed to be able to figure out myself. I really like working and think it is part of my sense of worth. Not true for everyone, which is fine, but it is how I was raised. I believe I have something to contribute and am just lost as to the steps to get there, unfortunately, in the US, there are no such service. I believe we are very short sited country in regards to human productivity or health. Put a cheap patch on it and continue to do so for the next 40 years rather then invest some min capital into resolving the problem so that the individual can be more productive for the next 40 years...sad.

I have some learning difficulties that make functioning challenging but I know I have a mind and a desire to be productive. I just need to right guidance and information. It seems that the current focus on education for AS individuals is social skills. I wonder if that includes lessons in reading NVC? It is a language skill and many kids are good at picking up languages. How good are my social skills going to be if I learn to say/do "A" when someone is angry or confused, if I can't tell when they are feeling these things? I think we do learn some of these things (especially over time) from watching movies or TV shows...at least the more obvious ones, but I know I still don't notice most of it and figure it out through the dialogue and cognitive understanding of the plot....then again, I watch more history channel then soap operas.


As far as expecting all NT's to give up NVC and learn to "use their words"...I gave up on my dream to ride a unicorn when I was about 10. I no more expect them to stop using it(as if they could) then that everyone in France should learn English before I come visit. What I would like, is for everyone in France to stop punishing me when I don't speak their language as well as I do as long as I am trying and to except that I may not have the cognitive ability to learn much of it. Really, I just want to be able to work hard and pay my rent without having a nervous break down or killing myself. I don't think that is to asking to much of the word but...history would seem to say that it is,so...?

You are the man Willard, this incident must still be discussed at the water cooler and lunchroom.

Anybody who has spent time around non-human species knows that animals are communicating all the time, non-verbally of course.

Language, assigning specific meanings to a large number of specific sounds, is something that was tacked on to communication very recently, in evolutionary terms.

As far as communication goes, language is the paint and non-verbal communication is the building.

I have no idea what people are communicating except what they say, which usually isn't that important. This is not a trivial deficiency.

I don't see what accommodations could be made for an individual that other individuals dislike being around. It's not like I need braille beside the elevator buttons.

In my office, and previous ones I have worked in, the men gossip much more than the women!

Note that by this I do not mean "talk more" - but the women will be talking about innocuous matters - families, kids, boyfriends, what they are having for lunch, but the men will be scheming, plotting & backstabbing.

I still find it so hard to believe in this 90% figure - in my experience it is more like 80% verbal & 20% non-verbal. I can't help wondering what parts I am missing out on, as I can read most major facial expressions & postures (though maybe not the subtler ones).

I know I don't give out the right signals, though.

I am also suffering from the "make the office more open-plan so that people integrate better" syndrome, which has more than halved my efficiency, increased my stress levels no end, and actually caused me to interact less with my colleagues than I did before, due to my vain attempts to "shut out" all the distractions around me.

I don't understand the necessity for people to get along with all their colleagues either - surely this is a bonus, not a job requirement? I am happy if there are one or two people I can get along with - the rest are totally irrelevant (as long as they do not hate me to the extent that they seek to undermine me, of course).

Surely at work you are simply a "role", not a "person" - this is what you are paid to do, and you should be expected to work and co-operate with whoever is filling the other roles with which you interact. All that is needed is that you should be able to respect their professional competence and trust them to carry out their role - not like them in the same way as someone you would choose to socialise with!! !!