Aspies and language use!!

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Bradleigh, oooh that's a good point. I think everybody does that (changes what they're saying midsteam). I think what stood out to me is that he just kind of...changed. With no transitional language. That definitely makes sense though, especially considering the associational tendencies of aspies.


...I hope you guys all know I'm doing this because I love it. I love exploring language use! Ahh I'm such a nerd. But yeah I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to point out differences in a mean way, or rub them in your face. I really like some of the differences; I think they're pretty. ^_^

I myself love figuring out people in simular ways, one of my goals is being able to do a kind of dr House or L thing where I can figure people out easily. It is so fun figuring out these things.

I wasn't claiming you lied. Hindi ALSO has limited vowels historically.

Hi Stella_Asteri This is an interesting study, even if the sample size is a bit small. I'd like to say first of all that we can't draw too many conclusions from this video for several reasons:

- The boy is speaking to a camera for the purpose of making a video which will be on the Internet. He has probably modified his speech for this purpose, so he might be using unusual speech patterns.

- I assume his video is largely unscripted, so some degree of hesitation, false starts and stuttering is expected.

- His language is on the formal side because the video is meant to be educational and informative (think about the purpose of it.)

- Also, his pronunciation is affected by his dialect. Some pronunciations might seem strange to us if we do not have the same dialect as him. What's unusual to us could be perfectly normal to the people living in his area.

Those points aside, it would be interesting to find out if there is a particular 'Aspie' way of talking. I've heard that people on the lower-functioning range of the spectrum tend to confuse personal pronouns (using us for you, etc...) but without a much larger sample, we can't really jump to any conclusions just yet. To make the study much more reliable, you would need to select a random sample of people with AS, with several people taken from different dialect areas of the US (and eventually other countries...) but you probably knew that.

That said, it's an interesting study, and language geekiness is cool.

Hodor I <3 your nickname for me.

All wonderful points! I tried to address some of them but it would be beneficial to go through my analysis with a fine-tooth comb.

It's unlikely that my university has any auditory databases for me to pull from, so I may have to do some original research...not sure if that's something I can get funding for as an undergrad. But I could do some small-scale research using youtube videos (of different types...also interviews, maybe excerpts from documentaries) and written records of speech, and then pull a lot of other stuff from other people's research to reach some kind of conclusion.

Then again maybe I should just coast the last two years until I graduate and save all my good stuff for graduate work!

Coming up this semester: phonetics and phonology (French AND English!) Yay! I'm so excited. *stares at all of you with a phonetic magnifying glass*

Thanks!



Nice! Phonetics is great. I'm doing a three-year course in Linguistics at University, starting in October, so it's gonna be exciting. Also, best of luck for your research - investigating the differences between AS and NT speech would be a very interesting study, even if it's not possible to do it just yet.

Etoile_Estrella: Ok. Regional accents are diverse which can then be overlayed with Autists. I am Alaskan; we enunciate with extraordinary dilineation and the rate is slow. AK Natives speak in a quite voice as well. I retained the European/continental accent by he who raised me.

Autists think in pictures, images, sequences, numbers, etc (in general). So, for me, I must translate into a format which is not congruent with my thought. Those who are foreign, learning a language novel to them, still do have the modicum of speech. Many Autistis do not. We can be echolalic and speak like a trained bird, sometimes sounding robotic. Have you listened to Dr. Temple Grandin speak? She, like Lab Pet, is HFA and very influential in her field of expertise. She has been critiqued as sounding robotic. I am conscientious since I may sound like a child. However, I am fluidic in science so I can speak in this realm.

About referring to NT (= Neurotypical): Please know this is simply a designation, there is no value judgment attached at all. Much like saying, 'She is left handed whilst He is right handed.' Just a descriptive - no offense intended. Autists often 'just say it!' I think this what you've experienced in this thread. Not just our speech is effected but our way of communication in all respects, along with subsequent interaction. I do not know any Autist that does not try VERY hard - please know this. Unsure if this matters.....but I've been slapped for not being able to speak. And chastised brutally. Often (with the 'T' pronounced!) what I write to a stranger is NOT read since other doesn't accept this way of communication. Being ignored hurts.

I have written, and with emphasis, that if I'm communicating with a NT it's imperative they READ what I am saying. To not read is analogous to covering one's ears when a NT is speaking! I'm certain you wouldn't do this since it's just not nice. However, many NTs do ignore Autists in this way. I'm certain you can imagine this hurts; not just impairing communication, but marginalizing the Autistic speaker/writer.

Separate thought: I think Hebrew is BEAUTIFUL! And I love to see written Hebrew as well.

Hodor - congrats on your move! Come back soon. You may geographically move but Wrong Planet remains in geosynchronous orbit. Personally, I've moved around (within AK) in the recent past - stressful! Good luck. Tip: Don't bother packing. Just pile everything extraneous into a pile. Add accelerant. Ignite. <yes, kidding!>

Lab Pet - that's interesting about Alaskan dialect, I don't know anything about it so I'll have to learn more in the future. ^_^

I completely understand that you didn't intend offense...it's just hard for me to turn off my "threat" filters, you know?

As a side note, I really like the way you write. It's very fluid and interesting, although sometimes I feel like I'm missing something. But overall it's a pleasure to talk to you.

Out of curiosity...what would you say are the major behavioral/perceptual differences between HFA and AS?

Thank you. Alaska is unique! In every way.

And, wow....about the major behavior/perceptual differences between HFA and AS. First, those with AS (= Aspies) many do consider themselves only partly autistic. This is valid and diagnostically sound. Those who are HFA ( = high-functioning autistics = Auties) are 100% autistic but nonetheless high-functiong. I am technically a HFA but have much in common with Aspies. Perhaps Autist is the inclusive word for all with autism.

(Caveat: I know some on WP are not ToM fans - no offense intended, inhabitants). The lack of Theory of Mind is considered the crux of autism. Some with AS can have shades of Theory of Mind. Lab Pet lacks Theory of Mind, as is indicative of HFA. Theory of Mind is deceptively simple but the effects are profound. The Sally-Anne Test is onr diagnostic tool for Theory of Mind ( = ToM). In sum, ToM means, 'If I know something, then why don't you?' Often I forget another does not know what I am thinking. Autists often consider NTs to be mind-readers and I am mindblind!

The do-it-yourself Sally-Anne test. This is not 'tricky,' just answer the 1st thing that comes to mind: Sally & Anne are playing and have a marble. Sally has a basket and Anne has a bowl. Sally puts the marble in her basket and leaves the room for just a moment. When Sally returns, where is her marble? (Given that it can be in either vessel).

The NT, and 'correct' response: Sally's marble is in her basket where she left it.

The autistic response, and Lab Pet's always response: 50 - 50 chance. Sally's marble could be in either her basket or the bowl. She cannot know.

The latter response is not wrong or irrational but is considered the analytical response. Inherently the autistic mind is an analytical one whereas the NT mind is regarded as holistic.

ToM (or lack of) is simply a developmental step which occurs in all NT humans between age 4 - 4.5. ToM isn't really learnable; it either exists or not. (Interestingly, this lack of assumption is a tremendously advantageous for scientist! Can you think of examples as to why? Hint: the Scientific Method and observational skills).

About the differences between HFA and AS: Usually those with AS can develop normally but with differences. Those with HFA can have delays, such as speech, which are notable. I did not speak until I was ~ 3.5 yrs old, for instance. But I am cognitively enhanced nonetheless. I am very science/math oriented and artistic as well. And I do write, which is a separate function from speaking. Also, I have no Sylvian Fissure! I am currently pursuing my PhD in the neurosciences but firstly a chemist. The lack of Sylvian Fissure is associated with my autism but in ways unknown. I have an extraordinarily high genetic propensity to autism as well; more than an order of magnitude higher. I am grateful for being autistic and would not be otherwise; this is my strength and my mind. But being autistic is hard too - the duality! I may have savant abilities; I can 'flash count,' for one. This just means I know how many without counting, like unfolding a paper cut-out snowflake.

Those with AS can and do have sensory enhancement &/or difficulites with processing but for those with HFA this can be especially magnified. My syneasthesia can be overwhelming and I do struggle with trying to modulate my senses. But, again, for a scientist, this can be a real advantage and I use my senses, and subsequent observational abilities, to navigate. I am mindblind, but my senses guide me. Etoile_Estrella, I am sure you're aware of the phenomena where one who is deaf, for example, can then have enhanced visual acuity - quite parallel to being mindblind.

Many with autism can feel 'locked inside.' I think my video clip, URL below, describes this some - please watch. Have you spoken with one who is deaf/hearing impaired? You'll notice their words might not quite match since they cannot know your intonation, rate, or tone. Some of autistic speech is impaired in this way. Basically I live in my mind and 'outside' can feel foreign. I think Aspies feel this too, but likely not to the extent an Autie does.

Another major and documented difference: Aspies usually do have a (nearly) full range of emotions, but they can be manifested differently than NTs complex emotions. Lab Pet has, in total, 4 emotions - I've counted. My emotions are very rudimentary, much like that of a child's. In many ways I am still 4 - 4.5 yrs old due to my lack of ToM. I have much naivete in me. But I do feel. I'm sure you know children certainly have feelings, but just lack emotional complexity. I am this. I can 'know' emotions vicariously, but not posses that given emotion. I've read Shakespear's Romeo and Juliet, for example. I do not have the emotion of jealousy. But I learnt of this emotion by reading Romeo and Juliet.

Unsure about Aspies, but for certain Auties have a separation between emotion and thought. For NTs, this is quite entangled, which is fine - part of what distinguishes NTs from those with autism.

A hallmark of autism is the total absorption and the lack of foreground and background. We will attend to every detail without filter. This can be quite overwelming though, as you might imagine. Autists often have no 'forward thinking,' which equates to lack of deceipt and an inability to even detect deceipt in others. You mentioned your 'threat filter.' I wish I had this! But I just do not and I can be very hurt by others who can be unscrupulous. Just does not occur to me another would deceive. Hence, our extreme literal interpretation.

I can become deeply entranced with certain stimuli. But....I have intense deep focus. When I in my lab I am in pure thought, pure science. And 'far away' in my mind. Socio/verbal, emotive, is then not even a consideration - just does not exist. My advisor and those with whom I work know this (they're nice to the Lab Pet - I love them). Whilst in my mode I am deeply autistic. And I create/formulate in this realm. The neuroscientists I work amongst say this a 'a linear mind.' I think so! y = mx + b

Maybe one example, which happened farily recently. I had one whom I worked with closely and I think she was my friend: A post-doctoral researcher from Zimbabwe. She and I worked well together and she is very kind. In the latter part of May she moved away, outside the Alaska and the US. Our Chem/Biochem, Neuroscience Dept had a fun informal gathering to say good-bye to her too. I am uncertain I processed she was then gone yet cognitively knowing she moved away forever. Then, much later, in late June, I retrieved something from the lab office area (where I rarely go)......her corner was empty. I went directly to my advisor and said, "I cannot find J. She is gone." I had tears in my eyes and had begun to look for her in the lab (Sally-Anne effect). My advisor explained (he's very good to me) that 1) She is in fact gone, moved away. 2) To not look for her since she is not coming back. 3) And that it is ok to miss her.
That he explained this to me really helped so I could process her absence, which really had not yet occurred to me.

I hope that helps...sort of!

Okay, Etoile_Estrella, since you are so interested, what are your linguistical plans for us Aspies? To free us from our linguistical burdens, as you see them?

What do you suggest we do?

Awww lab pet that story about your coworker is so sad!!

Interestingly, when you proposed that Sally Anne story, my initial thought was, "It's in Anne's bowl because she took it." What does *that* say about me? I guess I'm a very mistrustful NT! >_< But it was silly of Sally to leave the room if she wants to know where the marble is...

I really liked your video. I didn't realize you were female! You're very pretty!

It's interesting that you bring up the concept of jealousy. I get the sense, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that your emotions are more basal, like an animal. I know, for example, that my pet rats love attention and food, but they don't feel "jealous" if one is getting it and the other isn't. They can feel fear, affection, contentment, depression, and anger/aggression, and I think that's about it. I feel like people on the autism spectrum connect more easily with animals than people (well, hey, I do too).

I want to be able to flash count! No fair. Is it limited in numbers? Like if you saw a group of thousands of people, could you do it then, providing you could see each person?

I like you. You seem really sweet. Is that misguided for me to think that, since it's not really your choice whether to be sweet or not? Then again, I guess you could say that about any human characteristic...it ultimately boils down to biology and environment, so nothing's ever really a choice, is it?

EDIT: I've been thinking about emoticons from your point of view. I'm sure you understand the smiley faces and frowny faces...winky faces might be harder but cognitively I'm sure you understand it means joking/teasing/not being serious. But then I was trying to figure out how to interpret/explain this face:

>_<

And I just don't know! Maybe like...being embarrassed or self-conscious? That's the closest I come up with. Do you have a way of interpreting it, or do you just skip the emoticons altogether?

Last edited by Etoile_Estrella on 10 Aug 2008, 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Ana I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

Estrella, I still do not see the connection between Forensic Linguistics and Asperger's Syndrome Linguistics. Is Linguistics an exact science and can findings be submitted as evidence in a Court Of Law?

By the way, I wasn't being sarcastic.

No social science is an exact science. Well, in fact you could say that no science at all is an exact science, but that's an argument for another day.

Forensic linguistics means, simply, using language as evidence to solve a mystery or support a hypothesis. And yes, it's absolutely admissible in a court of law, just like handwriting analysis, criminal profiling, or any other "imperfect" science.

You see, everybody has a linguistic "fingerprint" - a particular way of speaking and writing that is unique to them and almost impossible for somebody, especially somebody who is not trained, to imitate. This is why, with even the best impersonators, you can generally tell it's not really the person they're impersonating, *especially* if you're trained in linguistics. The purpose in studying Asperger's is to find what traits many of them share that show up in their fingerprints. For example, let's pretend I discovered that aspies say the word blue at the end of every sentence. So one day, while working for the FBI (my dream job!), I get a letter on my desk. "This letter is a suicide note," says the investigator. "The woman who died had Asperger's. We're trying to figure out if she actually wrote it or if it was forged. The handwriting matches exactly, but we wonder if somebody cut and pasted the words." I can look at the sample and, seeing that it does NOT, in fact, include the word blue at the end of every sentence, conclude that the woman who died did not write that note. Obviously it's a lot more complex than this, but can you see the implications, and how having more information in this field can be really beneficial in solving both criminal cases and determining more information about an unknown individual (also in determining historical information about an individual).

So, to answer your earlier question...I don't really know enough yet to offer much advice. BUT, one thing I might suggest...

Record yourself speaking. Don't rehearse the topic ahead of time. Then play it back. If you notice any pauses longer than 1 second or so that don't follow a punctuation mark (comma, period, etc.), you can practice inserting a discursive marker in there to make your speech sound more natural. A discursive marker is basically a "place filler", although sometimes the one you choose does have a little meaning. Some examples:

like (mainly used by teens & early-twenties)
um
you know (often indicates you're about to explain something)
well (mainly used when switching gears, changing direction)
you see (works like "you know")
uh

So for example if you recorded yourself saying:

"I never knew..........what she expected me to say."


I, as a 20-year-old college student, would instead say:

"I never knew, like, what she expected me to say."


Someone else might say:

"I never knew, uh, what she expected me to say."


This is just one example off the top of my head. Generally NTs insert a discursive marker to say, "Wait, I'm thinking, I'm going to keep talking in a second," rather than just pausing. It prevents the listener from interrupting. You can use this the other way, too! If you hear someone using one of these, it means, "Wait, don't talk yet."

Those are just some examples of how studying these kind of things can help aspies with general social interactions. Make sense?

I agree with the Aspie end of what you are doing. I was trying to connect it with the Forensics beginning. You intend to become highly specialized and develop a skill that will not be in very high demand but unique nonetheless.

I might try what you suggested; making a tape of myself spontaneously speaking. I don't really like the sound of my own voice. I find it irritating. Sometimes it's too loud and I lecture, going on and on about something. That's the only problem, me having to listen to myself on a tape. I'm too whiney and nasally.


Best wishes to you.