Americans, please answer me about the recession...
Greentea,
Those that pull the strings wouldn't say anyway! BESIDES, many that started it aren't there anymore.
There ARE signs of recovery. Things started looking more positive around january. One guy here predicted this would happen, and also predicted a recovery around this june. BUT, we DID have a similar problem, caused by the SAME person, that happened in 1999! It started recovering in a few months, like now, and started showing signs of SOME normalcy around late 2001. Then along came 9/11! IRONICALLY, the 1999 debacle set things in place for NOW!! !! !! That IDIOT raised rates VERY high, to cause the 1999 crash. After companies started going bankrupt left and right, he lowered the rates WAY too low! They have been lowered ever since, and NOW are as low as 0%! !! !! ! Yep, you read right! NO interest! When rates were raised, they HAD to be lowered a little. They can't raise them soon, or very fast, or things could get FAR worse.
So WHO KNOWS? Obama even wants to set things up for another 9/11!
BTW a recovery of 100% is IMPOSSIBLE short term! Just look at ONE stock I invested in! They WERE #1 on the PLANET! I invested in them up to earlier this year when they were #3! I pulled my money OUT! WHY? Because they sold off like 75% of their company! SO, when things recover(and it HAS started ALREADY), they will lose out BIG TIME! BTW they were THE american company in the top 5! NOW, when their industry recovers, CHINA, RUSSIA, and SPAIN will get the business that America can no longer support! That is only ONE company! Based on what I recall, that ONE difference will mean an increase in the US v world trade deficit of FORTY BILLION USD!! ! That is just one company!
So the person that FIRST pulled the strings shot ALL OVER! The NEW idiots are STILL shooting! Like a cancer, it has spread ALL OVER! So can ANYONE really say how far things will return, etc??? NOPE!
Forever.
A Recession is two quarters of decline, we are in the sixth.
All that has gone half through is the insurance on sub prime housing.
We have been living off of equity loans in a housing bubble, that ended.
Lack of buying lead to layoffs, more lack of buying, more layoffs.
That lead to a cut in credit card limits, which lead to defaults in payment.
Retail sales are way down, even with price cuts, more layoffs.
Now comes the biggies, housing is still falling, most owe more than it is worth at market, half of all market investments are gone, which is the Capital in Capitalist.
The richer you were, the more you lost.
Next to come are hotels, dead, office buildings, who needs them, shopping malls, history, car dealers, sales down over 50%.
These are the big ticket Commercial loans, about twice all of the financial losses. Most were short term finance, five to seven years, no one wants to refinance in this market, for your $50 million hotel might be worth $20 million.
2,000 shopping malls will close. Circuit City just vacated several square miles of big box stores.
This will finish off the largest banks.
So far the government has spent $2.8 Trillion, and approved $10.3 Trillion, to bail out the financial sector, which is only partly the banks. $10.3 Trillion equals our national debt.
One fifth of the States have hit 10% unemployment, and we are still losing 20,000 jobs a day.
The banks can fail in an orderly manner, in the 1990s 1,384 were closed, so far only 38 in the last few years, but this is much worse than the 1990s.
No one can care about the losses in apartment buildings, office buildings, retail space, hotels, that is private losses. Banks are only being supported for long enough to unwind the world debts, then they can fold.
The focus is to keep Wall Street, the Stock Exchange alive, so that we have a place to re-start from.
We bailed out AIG so it could pay it's British and European debts.
Basically we have $10 Trillion, and then have to just print money, as no one wants our Bonds.
The loss is over $200 Trillion.
The most optimistic,, who also work for the government, have said the economy might stop falling in nine months, but most say three years as all the commercial debt falls.
Unemployment usually peaks a year after the recovery starts, so four years of rising unemployment to go.
This still does not answer the problem of most Americans, who own a house now worth half what they owe, and soon, perhaps a third.
The Dow Jones is likely to drop to the 6,000 range by summer, and stay there for three or four years.
At 10% per year, it will recover in another twenty years.
Another problem is we are Post Industrial, we do not make anything, we sell Financial Services to the world. There is a shortage of demand.
Another major problem is the cheap war in Afganistan, with less than a third of the troops the Russians lost with. We lost three quarters of the country, all Commanders said the same, we cannot win this war, it calls for a political solution. Now Obama talks of winning.
The truth is if we do not send more troops, our puppet will lose the summer election in a landslide of bullets, the usual Afgan vote of choice. Fighting has reached Kabul.
Our plan, one Government of our choice, with a big paid army, will rule. That is the one thing that all the tribes will fight. Afganistan is Tribal Areas, always has been, always will be. Making war on the tribal areas of Pakistan has united the tribes. The British did that twice. That the hated British are back has brought up round three of lets kill the British.
There can be no political deal for in the last one Reagan told the Taliban they could rule the country if they defeated the Russians, which they did. As the rightful government of Afganistan they had training camps, we do to, and Clinton attacked without declaration of war or warning, with cruise missiles.
What could they do about a Big Bubba? 9/11, a cruise missile attack on a coward of an enemy, and ex pretend friend.
We invaded Afganistan and called all men with guns enemies, they went to Pakistan, and took over. There we have a General in a bunker saying over and over, I am in charge! The country is run by men who made a honorable peace with the Taliban, and have kept it through hard times. Before them they have India, not the best of neighbors, behind them, they cannot have enemies.
This will get very expensive. Afganies never lose, for they never quit, their enemies will die of old age if nothing else. Alexander the Great hated them. Gengis Khan passed to the north and sent gifts, He only passed through to erase some Persian Cities, and everything alive. Tamerlane and Balbor avoided angering them, the British were the world's best army, both times they lost, and the Russians were on home ground with three times the troops.
We are uniteing the Stans, and not as our friends. A hundred years is nothing in Afganistan. The most likely outcome I see is restoring the Khanate.
This will delay the economic recovery.
elderwanda
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Beats me. The economy, which is based on some kind of absurd fantasy anyway, is a mystery to me. I can grasp the concept of trading a rug for a cooking vessel. And I can understand the concept of trading a rug for a couple of coins, and then later on trading the couple of coins for a cooking vessel.
Beyond that, it gets weird. Really, really weird.
My gut feeling is that we'll never truly get out of it.
CanyonWind
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Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Age: 74
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,656
Location: West of the Great Divide
I gotta admit, Obama does have a great solution for Afghanistan.
He says we need to send lawyers there.
_________________
They murdered boys in Mississippi. They shot Medgar in the back.
Did you say that wasn't proper? Did you march out on the track?
You were quiet, just like mice. And now you say that we're not nice.
Well thank you buddy for your advice...
-Malvina
Sorry, loan processors aren't doing too poorly. Interest rates have dropped and there is a lot of refinancing going on.
It would, of course, depend on how skilled he is at the new realities, as in actually having to truly understand and review the data on an application. Like in the old days. The fly-by processors who never had to learn all that, or were able to happily ignored it, are being weeded out, I believe.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
John_Browning
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Posts: 4,456
Location: The shooting range
I noticed your location says middle east. If you are talking about the state of the oil industry there, it will probably be a few years for your economy to recover. The high gas prices last summer were higher than market value, so those kinds of prices are not sustainable.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
I think signs of true recovery will be apparent by final quarter 2009. But it will take time for the uptick to register in quarterly returns. What made this recession so difficult is fear and panic. People's confidence in the economy is driven by the DJIA, Dow Jones Industrial Average [as well as job loss, which also drives the Dow lower] And anything can make it go up or down. But when people lose confidence, they sell shares. When there are more shares sold than purchased, the Dow goes down. When people see it is down, they sell more.
Fortunately, there are always people who want to buy when share prices are low because that's the best time to buy. People who have money in a recession are people who rarely panic. Even if the ship is sinking, they'll be scheming how to make money selling the wreckage to scavengers, rather than panicking. They are in the minority but they also have a huge chunk of the wealth.
So people wanting to buy low send the Dow up. If enough people do this, the buys outnumber the sells. When people see the Dow is up, confidence returns, fear subsides, and more people are encouraged to buy low. Which drives the Dow up. And the higher the Dow goes, the more people want to buy. But the really smart people bought when the share prices were dirt low.
This scenario will have to play out until approx the final quarter this year. That is my guess and I really haven't a clue what I'm talking about.
Sorry, loan processors aren't doing too poorly. Interest rates have dropped and there is a lot of refinancing going on.
It would, of course, depend on how skilled he is at the new realities, as in actually having to truly understand and review the data on an application. Like in the old days. The fly-by processors who never had to learn all that, or were able to happily ignored it, are being weeded out, I believe.
I fogot, she DID say loan PROCESSORS! YEP, they are probably having a FUN time.
AND, because of the STUPID way that everything is LINKED, the government has LOWERED rates, paid $8000, and facilitated NEW home buyers! MOST of those are BAD RISK!! !! !! Figure it out, it is the law of averages!! !! !!
1. RICH....Most have their own homes, and WON'T take new risks!
2. UPPER MIDDLE INCOME.... Many have their own homes, and most are NOT secure in their jobs.....
3. MIDDLE MIDDLE INCOME....Many have their own homes, and most are NOT secure in their jobs.....
So WHO will be the beneficiaries of the $8000?
Anyway, I bet a NUMBER WILL get the $8000 and the low rates, and that home loans will skyrocket, and I bet MANY will default within the year. Of course, that WON'T hurt the loan processors. The loan processors often charge a fee that FEW are willing to pay, so it is FINANCED! The get points, an interestt spread, fee, and/or OTHER closing cost item. And they get paid about when the seller does.
The price of gold and silver says that it will be years before a stabilization occurs, if it ever does. So far only 7 states have unemployment over 10% and for thing to be truely bad we need double digit unemployment nationwide. We have at keast another year to go before we reach that level so in effect the bad times have hardly startedt yet.
I'm headed to to the Sierra's tomorrow to try my luck.
_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.
I spoke doom and gloom aroun 1987 and around 1999. The 1999 deal was just a bit before the market went down. I haven't shut up SINCE!
CanyonWind
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Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Age: 74
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,656
Location: West of the Great Divide
I'll be doing the same thing, but here I still gotta wait a few weeks for the snow to melt off.
Best life I've found yet. Hope you see that bright yellow flash.
_________________
They murdered boys in Mississippi. They shot Medgar in the back.
Did you say that wasn't proper? Did you march out on the track?
You were quiet, just like mice. And now you say that we're not nice.
Well thank you buddy for your advice...
-Malvina
I'm headed to to the Sierra's tomorrow to try my luck.
Actually, Gold hasn't said ANYTHING! It keeps hovering around $1000, and took a while to get there. Did you know that, at least the last *I* knew, the OFFICIAL US price for gold is about $35!?!?!? That price was set in 1933. And people are WRONG! The price of gold hasn't REALLY gone up over time. Figure it out, even the technological needs have dropped, and there is more now than ever. ALSO, it is easier to get than ever. So the price increase is basically inflation. Just a few days ago, I remarked about how, when I was in highschool, I could buy a candybar, and drink for $.50!! !! ! TODAY, a SMALLER drink costs over $1, and a SMALLER candybar costs about $.60+. By that CRUDE measure, That is like 4% inflation per year!
01 0.52
02 0.54
03 0.56
04 0.58
05 0.61
06 0.63
07 0.66
08 0.68
09 0.71
10 0.74
11 0.77
12 0.80
13 0.83
14 0.87
15 0.90
16 0.94
17 0.97
18 1.01
19 1.05
20 1.10
21 1.14
22 1.18
23 1.23
24 1.28
25 1.33
26 1.39
27 1.44
28 1.50
29 1.56
Even at that MODEST inflation, with that inaccurate valuation, gold would cost at least $663.08 today. Of course, greed and panic drive the price also, but such thiings can change in an INSTANT. STOCKS are valued by the SAME thing.
As for unemployment, nobody knows the REAL numbers. Several things are artificially inflating the numbers. Hopefully, people will complain, etc... and the number of new job openings can "magically" increase A LOT with NO new jobs created! And that won't be WITH government intervention, but rather by a LACK of it.
CanyonWind
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Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Age: 74
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,656
Location: West of the Great Divide
I'd figure that the reported unemployment figures are lower than what's really happening.
They don't count the people who have given up looking for work.
They don't count small business owners whose businesses have gone under.
They don't count people whose unemployment benefits have run out, at least I don't think they do.
They don't count full time parents whose kids no longer require full time parenting.
They don't count people working part time who would rather be working full time.
The recent inactivity in the price of gold has me baffled. Traditionally gold is the safe haven investment in uncertain times, and these times are definitely uncertain. This is especially true since gold is a psychological commodity. Gold really isn't used for much of anything.
The alternatives aren't too appealing. Stocks seem risky right now, and treasuries are paying very low yields.
I've heard of currencies being traded in baskets. This might drag gold down along with stuff where there's an actual supply and demand mechanism, like copper, but I don't know if this is a significant enough portion of the market to determine the price.
I can't figure out what's going on with the price of gold. I would expect it to be going through the roof, but it isn't.
_________________
They murdered boys in Mississippi. They shot Medgar in the back.
Did you say that wasn't proper? Did you march out on the track?
You were quiet, just like mice. And now you say that we're not nice.
Well thank you buddy for your advice...
-Malvina
