Why do NTs turn nasty ...

Page 11 of 19 [ 304 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 19 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

25 Jul 2009, 12:38 pm

AnnieK wrote:

While I have pointed out the effects of engaging in this sort of behavior on external reputation I think an even more important reason not to engage in it is self-respect. May be I'm just a weirdo but I don't think I could with a straight face, condemn prejudice and discrimination, if I engage in it myself. The contradictions would mean that I couldn't respect myself.

Another reason why I oppose this sort of behavior is because in my mind it is illogical. The cost-benefit ratio of hating other people is simply too low (in fact negative most of the time) for me to justify it as an efficient use of my energy and time. I mean I have thought about holding an eternal grudge against members of my family for all the emotional abuse as a kid, but doing a cost-benefit analysis it just wasn't worth it. The only exception is if say you were a politician wanting to use other people's hatred to gain power. But otherwise the costs (time and energy wasted, lack of self-respect, reputation lost, destroyed relationships etc.) outweigh any benefits. Not to mention I suspect the benefits would not make me happy (according to previous case studies i.e. my own and other people's experiences) which sort of negates the reasons for doing it.

A lot of aspies don't have much emotional regulation. Experiencing the anger isn't a choice for me. Therefore a cost benefit analysis isn't helpful. Telling me I'm not allowed to be angry is simply telling me to internalize my feelings so that I don't appear angry. It doesn't actually solve the problem one bit. People come here and make these angry rants because they aren't allowed to anywhere else.

Also, I think a lot of people here feel they have no reputation to protect. If you feel that nobody respects you then there's nothing to lose by hating back. Saying it's illogical sounds dismissive. It's like you're saying you're a better more moral person. When people do this to me it makes the hate worse.

I don't understand why people decide that it's okay to pour salt into someone's wounds when their anger is a defense mechanism against low self-esteem. A lot of aspeis have extremely low self-esteem and that's why you're seeing all the anger.

makuranososhi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 May 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,805
Location: Banned by Alex

25 Jul 2009, 12:58 pm

Tantybi wrote:

Just understand though that NTs is a different realm than your average discrimination. I don't know if you are reading my posts, but I think to analyze what is considered normal is helpful, and sometimes it's helpful to attack that mentality. NT's aren't supposed to be real people in my mind as much as the paradigm of people. If you look at all the "hate speech" that takes part on here, much of it really does in context seem to attack the paradigm rather than a group of people. Even the original post in this thread seemed to convey that to me as you will also see many posts and other threads on "what people say is normal is pretty nasty" as opposed to "people who don't have AS is nasty." I'm sure the person that wrote that has a friend or family member they love dearly who is not on the spectrum, so I don't see it as an actual hate speech. It's obvious to me that the post seemed to portray a lack of hope more than hatred. I don't think that's as obvious to someone who takes it for face value, and in my experience, you will misread a person with AS if you take them at face value.

I think what would benefit this forum is to publicly post the definition of NT since it seems to be our word and it seems to have more than one definition on here. I think it was intended, by looking at the word, to mean that which is neurologically typical to the human species to also mean, a model of what society considers normal. I also think in context you see it misused as a new definition of people who aren't on the autistic spectrum or also people who have no diagnosis (such as BiPolar wouldn't be considered NT in some context, and in others it would). I've been guilty of the catechresis myself as when I first came on here, I didn't know what it was and assumed it as that until people clued me in with other posts, and even then, when someone else misuses the word, I tend to follow suit as part of my herding training (so to speak hehe).

So, if WP correctly defined the word, or safely came up with a better word for that definition of the model for society, I think we'd be better, and then the mods can more easily spot when someone is actually trying to hate a group of people vs someone trying to hate the world of normalcy. It's funny how my friend can walk into a bar and say "People suck" and everybody is like, "Tell us about it." I walk in and say the same two words, and everybody is like, "Who are you to say I suck?" This is what we are dealing with, so it's more than just a kkk member going on and on about how the black man married his daughter. In other words, excuse the pun, it's not a black and white issue but one massive gray area.

A couple things... we can't 'define' a term that has wider usage; such an attempt would not be successful. I agree that NT is a malleable word; my feeling is that not having an ASD does not make someone NT, but that's neither here nor there. You illustrated part of the problem I am finding - that there is a great challenge separating the actions and events from the people involved. Attack the mentality - "I find it appalling when people act on the basis of herd mentality instead of thinking for themselves" - instead of saying those same people are one thing or another in contempt. Your analogy of the bar doesn't work, for one reason - this isn't a bar, it is a support site, and as such there are different expectations of behavior which are being communicated so they are clear. I don't know what you mean by misreading a person with AS by taking them at face value; can you rephrase that statement?

M.

_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

zena4
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Age: 63
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,054

25 Jul 2009, 1:10 pm

Quote:

I don't understand why people decide that it's okay to pour salt into someone's wounds when their anger is a defense mechanism against low self-esteem. A lot of aspeis have extremely low self-esteem and that's why you're seeing all the anger.

But when the anger is so wide and so wilde that it totaly blinds someone... it's not easy (euphemism) to read those messages.
And there, I'm thinking of someone (not on this forum) who told me once that he didn't have any "hate lessons" to receive from nobody (that meant: me). I told him : "How do you know?"

I guess he was thinking of me as wanting to smoothe him, his temper, frustrations, anything that led him to the point he was at that moment.

It could have been.

Except that for me, I meant it (the "hate lessons") litteraly as a... hum... teacher who could have taught him something about hate. Hate, rage.
The real burning of hate. To the core of any of your cells.

But since I didn't want to give any publicity to hate

, he didn't understand and he went on and on and on.

So, I don't know. Maybe it's better to vent on a public forum that to take someone and harass that one person by e-mails and mp?
It's difficult when you are on your own to face that kind of temper.
And at the end, it does not seem to do no good for the other person either.

AnnieK
Blue Jay

Joined: 6 Sep 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 91

25 Jul 2009, 1:20 pm

marshall wrote:

AnnieK wrote:

I merely speak the truth. It *is* illogical. I thought it would be an easier way to understand it as many Aspies understand logical arguments better than emotional ones. And also, that is the way I actually do think. Logic and consistency is very important to me. But this raises a point - a lot of the reactions from people here defending the hate speech is nothing to do with logic but everything to do with emotion.

As for anger being a defense against low self-esteem - that's no excuse for lashing out at other innocent people. How would you like it if the people bullying you said "Hey I was only acting out of my low self-esteem. Beating you up did help me relieve a lot of tension so I do in fact feel a lot better now. Thanks a lot for your help." Will you get up and say "Well, you know, being your punching bag did hurt a lot, but I'm glad I was able to help relieve some of your tension." Somehow I don't think so, so why do you expect other people to be content being your punching bag? Also, is beating up other innocent people verbally actually helping your self-esteem? Does it make you respect yourself more? Probably not, which is one of the reasons why I think this sort of behavior hurts the person doing it more than anyone else.

Regardless of how much hatred and vitriol you spew, the innocent people you aim it at here will sign off, go back to their lives, eat dinner, talk with their loved ones and generally be relatively content. *You* are the one who has to live with your obsessive hatred 24/7, not me or anyone else you target. The best reason for letting go of it is not because of the effects on other people but the effects on yourself. Does it make you happy or is otherwise useful? No, well, why bother? I prefer to go back to the physics book I'm reading. If you could channel your hatred towards some towering obsession to create a great piece of art or make a great scientific discovery, then you could argue it's useful despite tearing you apart inside, but most of the hatred I see here just dissipates energy and makes the hater unhappy. I would say it makes people around them unhappy too but what usually happens is people avoid people who lash out at people around them so really in the end, it just makes the hater unhappy. So, logically speaking, what's the point?

Venting and relieving anger at the people who hurt you is one thing and can be soothing. No-one is saying that is wrong. Lashing out at innocent people who have nothing to do with you however is a different matter altogether.

Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

25 Jul 2009, 2:25 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

Tantybi wrote:

On the analogy of the bar, it could be anywhere, so it kinda works. All I'm saying is for whatever reason, Aspies are taken wrong. Something someone without autism can say and get away with, we manage to mess it up when we try to follow suit.

I kinda rethought that statement about face value after I made it. What I kind of mean is that Aspies usually say what they mean, but if there is an emotional value to it, they often have a hard time figuring out how to say what they mean, and because they just say what comes to mind, it comes out wrong. As far as the Aspies in my family, we are a perfect example of "Things aren't always what they seem." We may seem angry when we are not, and we might be angry and nobody knows. Just because one will say something that sounds hateful doesn't exactly mean they actually feel that way or meant to come across that way. I don't know how many times I have to say to people, "You are missing the point." It's like they get so caught up on syntax, details, and everything else they miss my big picture, which is funny because that's supposed to be what I'm supposed to do according to that learning quiz someone posted on here.

I do think it might be beneficial to have a word to mean a model of what society expects for Aspies to project their frustrations on as well as learn from. NT seems to match that, but people ruined it by expanding it. So maybe we just need to make a new one and see if it catches on, and I'm having writer's block on coming up with some suggestions.

Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

25 Jul 2009, 3:15 pm

AnnieK wrote:

Tantybi wrote:

Feyhera wrote:

willmark wrote:

Tantybi wrote:

I don't appreciate NT's coming on here and acting like they know what Aspies go through with bullying because they were bullied too at some point. Everyone has different experiences, so don't think because you naturally feel some empathy that it's accurate. We may call it bullying, but it's really more like a discrimination. Also, it's not the Aspies that make it about NT's vs Aspies...no the NT's make it about that when they make fun of autistic people and call us ret*d.

Ok, I'm one of those NTs who was bullied. I don't pretend to know what Aspies go through, but I suspect rejection illicits similar feelings regardless of how the feelings got generated. No, no one ever called me ret*d. When I was in Middle School in boys PE, in the shower after the workout the boys who were early bloomers, who had a six inch fire hose hanging between their legs liked to lord it over those with smaller genitalia. I was pointed at and laughed at, and teased for being a tall boy with a small p*n*s. Is that form of rejection personal enough to qualify? My voice didn't change until I was 18, and I didn't have enough peach fuzz to shave until I was 20. I got bullied all the way through high school, and laid in my bedroom and cried myself to sleep the night after my graduation because high school was finally over. I didn't get teased for autistic attributes so I can't know how you feel eh?

Wow, I know how tough that was to share, Will. :cry:

Thanks for adding your voice to this. And I hope nobody trivializes it as "normal NT" childhood experiences. Bullying is bullying. And it's not the exclusive domain of AS.

For you and Willmark...
I have yet to read all the posts after this one, but I'm responding before I forget, but I said everybody's experiences are different. I'm not trying to start a peeing war on who got bullied the worst growing up. How about I say it this way....

NON AS People deal with/respond/react/have different feelings about bullying very different than AS, so don't come on here acting like you can empathize when you can't. It just seemed like you acted like because you experienced it and you reacted different that (and I'm interrupting myself to say also maybe not you two exactly, just some of the old posts I saw on this thread), Aspies are wrong for reacting their way, but that's what makes Aspies different is that Aspies will perceive things differently and then respond differently. Unless you are Aspie, you can't possibly 100% empathize with one. (That came out funny lol).

Part of the problem for AS is that they have to deal with social rules...you can't say that or you can't do that without insulting people, and sometimes they aren't even told the social rules and don't understand that they are insulting people, so this is supposed to be the place for them to come and not worry about all those social rules. Now regular society is coming in here demanding these rules be placed here too screaming they understand where we are coming from when they don't. If you understood what it's like for an AS to be bullied, you wouldn't be arguing a lot of things you are arguing. Maybe you are right though. This is the internet, and it's in your world too. Everything is in your world. Aspies I guess are not permitted one of their own outside of trying to understand your world unless they actually go to another planet.

There's nothing particularly Aspish about the behavior people are complaining about. Individuals from one group get hurt by individuals from another group. Individuals from first group band together and engage in hate speech against group B. Pretty standard behavior anywhere, anytime in human history.

On your second point - enough Aspies on WP, ironically, especially those who engage in hate speech, condemn NTs about their discriminatory behavior to make me find it very difficult to believe that anyone on WP doesn't know that prejudice and discriminatory behavior is unacceptable social behavior. I mean it's only the subject of the vast majority of the threads on this forum...The real difficulty here is not lack of knowledge that discrimination is bad, but the inability of a lot of people to apply what they expect from other people to their own behavior.

While I have pointed out the effects of engaging in this sort of behavior on external reputation I think an even more important reason not to engage in it is self-respect. May be I'm just a weirdo but I don't think I could with a straight face, condemn prejudice and discrimination, if I engage in it myself. The contradictions would mean that I couldn't respect myself.

Another reason why I oppose this sort of behavior is because in my mind it is illogical. The cost-benefit ratio of hating other people is simply too low (in fact negative most of the time) for me to justify it as an efficient use of my energy and time. I mean I have thought about holding an eternal grudge against members of my family for all the emotional abuse as a kid, but doing a cost-benefit analysis it just wasn't worth it. The only exception is if say you were a politician wanting to use other people's hatred to gain power. But otherwise the costs (time and energy wasted, lack of self-respect, reputation lost, destroyed relationships etc.) outweigh any benefits. Not to mention I suspect the benefits would not make me happy (according to previous case studies i.e. my own and other people's experiences) which sort of negates the reasons for doing it.

You are missing my point. Yes the actions and behaviors, as well as experiences can all be comparable. But the internal emotions involved and how the brain is processing those actions and experiences are going to be very different. Since that has a direct effect on how someone reacts or responds to the situation, then you wouldn't be in a position to tell someone how they should react or respond based on how you react and resond. See what I'm saying? Aspergers only really affects external factors in the sense of that discrimination we tend to see or the increase nature of nice people being mean to us, but the anger isn't based on that as much as the internal factors which is what I'm trying to get at in addition to the communication issues. I'm also saying in my original comment that Aspergers do run into something unique to your average run of the mill school bullies.

Anyway, I think an unfair judgement was placed on the OP. There's a difference between it being "insulting," and it being "wrong." Wrong makes it sound like they should be punished, which is judgement. Saying that you were insulted by it is merely you expressing your opinion and letting someone know that they are now coming across a little nasty to you. If you look back at my threads, I said something about "Fortunately, I'm not athiest." Someone came on here saying they were insulted by it because they were athiest and felt like I was saying they didn't have morals because they didn't believe in God. They didn't hate me. They didn't judge me. I realized the syntax error and apologized and explained that I meant Society is fortunate (not myself) that I'm not athiest because if I were athiest (just me, not anyone else), I wouldn't have morals. Now if they tried to make it sound like I should burn in hell for making that hateful comment against athiest, the conversation would have ended in debate because then I would take it personal.

Also I will repeat myself again, I think a lot of this is misunderstanding. NT more means that which is normal for humans. I think the OP in this situation was attacking a concept as opposed to actual people. Hate Speeches attack people. I just see a lot of posts that attack the concept get confused and mistaken for a post attacking people because of all the definitions NT seems to come with. Obviously the solution is to come up with better words to separate all the definitions of NT so that the right people are attacked with discrimination claims.

Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

25 Jul 2009, 3:26 pm

AnnieK wrote:

marshall wrote:

AnnieK wrote:

I agree though that lashing out at innocent individuals is bad. That's not fair to anyone including the one doing the lashing out. But like I said, I think some people are taking offense to something that wasn't exactly geared to them. It does sound that way, but I don't think it was meant to be that way. I guess in all it goes back to the burden of communication. Is the burden on the speaker or the listener to get everyone to understand what is being said? Now do those same rules apply to an Aspie community considering Aspies sometimes have a hard time finding the right words to say or organizing their information? I personally feel it should be a 50/50 thing, and if questioned an Aspie comes out with an obvious statement with all context that he or she has a hatred toward these people and is publically claiming it, then the mods probably needs to step in. But when there is any doubt to what could be meant, until the person comes on here and gives clarification, we are actually arguing and debating about assumptions.

zen_mistress
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,033

25 Jul 2009, 5:01 pm

willmark wrote:

Postperson wrote:

A lot of pro NT posts are in the vein of 'well we all have problems don't we' and gah that is a way of people dismissing you.

see what i mean?

You don't seem to realize how devaluing your attitude can be. Sure, this is your forum, and I am not it should not be a place that you can vent your frustrations, but you seem to think you are the only person can know what it's like to be you. I too have a hidden disability that makes communication very difficult, but it happens to not be the same disability as yours, therefore I cannot know how you feel. You have a right brain weakness, I have a left brain weakness. We are totally different so I have no right to speak to your problems right? God your poor little me attitude is so annoying. I have sensibility issues too. I had no friends growing too, and very few now. Once when I was in Middle school, a couple of dudes jumped me during lunch break and knocked me over and broke my glasses and bloodied my nose. After that my Mother insisted that I make an appointment with an assistant principal to demand that something be done about this behavior. When I went the dude said to me, "This is just a part of growing up. Why didn't you gather a bunch of your friends go get back at them?" I knew then that I was on my own in this, since I had no friends to go gather. But I'm not an Aspie so I can't know how you feel. I give up. If you are determined to hurt badly, be my guest.

I am sort of wondering why you think you are not on the spectrum. From your post it sort of appears as if you might have NLD or PDD-NOS... that does put you as one of us, it means you are not an NT.

Just because your social skills are a little better than others on the spectrum doesnt exclude you from the spectrum.

Im sorry you were bullied, noone should have to go through that, spectrum or not.

~
For me in my life the problems I have faced, bullying was not the real issue I went through. I was bullied, but I expected jerks to be jerks. The worst thing was failing continuously, for years, to make friends or even get people to like me a little bit. These were ordinary folk who hated me widely.. they were not sadists and bullies. It actually doesnt hurt as much to have bullies hate me, its the people who seem to otherwise like each other which really led to a lot of pain for me.

_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

25 Jul 2009, 5:29 pm

Postperson wrote:

... what 'work' are they doing for us?

I may not be in a position to do anything particularly useful for you, specifically, besides spending an hour here or there cleaning out spam from this site, but I certainly am trying to find ways to be a "help" to the AS population. I had an idea on the parenting forum for a project I thought might be viable, but it fizzled. Someday I'll find something that will carry weight. On a smaller level, I work hard to make sure my son will have a life far different from yours. I support my husband as he challenges his own insecurities and chases rainbows. I have an NT daughter who stands up for the special needs child in her classroom, and has befriended the girl (the child may be AS, but that is private information we don't have access to). I use the information I get HERE and take it out THERE, into the real world, and into the real life situations I deal with daily. It may not be much, to your eyes, but it is "something."

_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

CockneyRebel
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,666
Location: Stalag 13

25 Jul 2009, 6:04 pm

I have noticed a tremendous change at WrongPlanet, over the past five years. When I came here in 2004, people were very supportive of each other. There wasn't a pecking order here, and I felt that I could post about anything. Things started to change in 2006. I found that some of the members were gradually becoming less supportive. Somebody said something nasty about me on Christmas Night. I've noticed that all hell broke loose in early 2007. People were attacking one another more, in general. Now in the summer of 2009, this site seems like a war zone, and I find myself being more careful of what I type, here for my own well being.

_________________
Who wants to adopt a Sweet Pea?

zen_mistress
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,033

25 Jul 2009, 6:10 pm

^ Maybe this is true, and we all need to take a chill pill....

Anyway I think what Postperson may be trying to say is that many single people on the spectrum can feel a bit abandoned by society. A lot of the support out there does seem to be for school-age ASDs, or ASDs with partners. It can be hard fending for yourself when you are not only single, but by yourself too. So, I see where she is coming from.

~
Though I can also see the contribution many non-ASD people are making too.

_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.

Eller
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 May 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 531

25 Jul 2009, 6:56 pm

This thread is highly offensive. I'm on the spectrum. Most of my friends are not. People stating my friends are nasty and not worth knowing simply because they are not on the spectrum aren't only insulting my friends but also insulting me on a very personal level. Please re-think that attitude. (And also, I'm not surprised you don't have any NT friends. I'm sure no-one likes to be treated like that.) It shouldn't be necessary to divide beween "us" and "them". That sort of assumption makes coexistence difficult for everyone.
I'll break a big secret to you haters: NTs are usually perfectly nice people though sometimes difficult to understand. Some of them will probably even try to be friendly. I know these attempts aren't always easy to recognise, but still, at least some effort instead of generalized hate-speech would improve things a lot. Of course, some NTs are pretty nasty - avoid those. But most aren't, really. (And it sure seems like there are a lot of pretty nasty and not-worth-knowing Aspies around as well...)
This site is starting to seriously annoy me.

Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

25 Jul 2009, 7:12 pm

Eller wrote:

Nobody is saying that about your friends or any person, and the post you seem to be referring to is obviously a little bitter, but the original post wasn't thinking people as much as the concept of humanity. Most responses seemed to form the consensus that all people, Aspie, NT, blue, purple whatever, are capable of being mean and nasty. I think all people on here do have friends that they wish not to insult.

Your post sounds pretty hateful too (no offense please), and I seriously doubt you meant to insult people as much as to make a point. Sometimes, the person you are reacting to might just be trying to do the same thing.

Eller
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 May 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 531

25 Jul 2009, 7:22 pm

I wasn't trying to express any hate here (I'm sorry if I came across as aggressive), it's just so insulting that on every aspie site I come to, I basically have to justify myself for having friends who are not on the spectrum. This is very hurtful. It just seems to me some people are actually trying to artificially divide "Aspie" from "NT" and generalize their bad experiences with some people instead of making at least a small effort to get along with each other - and that's the attitude I criticise strongly as it won't lead to anything constructive.
If the title of this thread said something like "why are some people so mean", I wouldn't have said anything. But like this, it's NT bashing pure and simple.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

25 Jul 2009, 7:27 pm

I don't think the title of the thread is NT bashing. It's more like an honest question posted by someone who doesn't know. If you have ever experienced it you would understand the general meaning. I understand what the poster is getting at. One minute someone is nice, the next minute hostile. It's like wow what happened. I've seen NTs do it. Not your NTs but NTs nonetheless. I don't think the poster is refering to your NTs inparticular. He is refering to NTs who have turned nasty. Those NTs.

Eller
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 May 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 531

25 Jul 2009, 7:34 pm

Ana, thank you for that explanation. I have in fact experienced this with other people. I just never attributed it to neurotypical behavior in particular, as I have experienced the very same thing with other Aspies, and just as (un)likely. I didn't ever notice any difference in the level of possible nastiness. And most of the people I've met (NT or otherwise) are actually very nice.

Page 11 of 19 [ 304 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 19 Next

Jump to:

Why do NTs turn nasty ... Post Reply New Topic

Why do NTs turn nasty ...