This video is just disgraceful to the autistic community.

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TheSunAlsoRises
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20 Dec 2011, 4:49 am

Verdandi wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Verdandi, I remember a while ago we discussed this topic (actiually it was "compassionate killing") and I thought your examples weren't valid comparisons. Much better there, I agree with you that that is disgusting.


My examples were valid, but narrow and unclear, I think - I don't remember what they were, just that google was giving me very few hits on what I was trying to find, and I wasn't satisfied with what I did link.

Thank you for dropping in to say this.


Every link you posted supported my assertions. I explained to you 'why' these situations were occurring and 'how' they were being played out. You refuse to acknowledge and accept my explainations.

Why do you think the court system is making the decisions that they are making ???

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Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on 20 Dec 2011, 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Dec 2011, 4:54 am

Verdandi wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Verdandi, I remember a while ago we discussed this topic (actiually it was "compassionate killing") and I thought your examples weren't valid comparisons. Much better there, I agree with you that that is disgusting.


My examples were valid, but narrow and unclear, I think - I don't remember what they were, just that google was giving me very few hits on what I was trying to find, and I wasn't satisfied with what I did link.

Thank you for dropping in to say this.


I openned this discussion with you are comparing apples to oranges BUT you refuse to acknowledge what i was talking about which was there is a difference between caring for disabled children and normal children. You wouldn't even acknowledge the foundation of what these cases and situations were built upon.

This is emotionalism on your part.

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20 Dec 2011, 5:07 am

IF you speak in terms of pure logic without emotion and dealing in costs to family and society than we will have reduced a human life to a commodity. This is what i was alluding to when i was referring to the unspoken and nuances. These cases are based upon facts and mitigating circumstances that includes the state of being of both parent and child. These situations are NOT decided upon one rule and one judgement without carefully consideration of cause and effect.


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Farsight
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20 Dec 2011, 5:11 am

I wonder what a video about high functioning asperger would look like? Probably not very exciting.
One should probably make a joke about that.
"Soo how is it to care for a child with such a terrible disability?". "Well he is not the most popular kid in school, sits by the computer alot and is a bit picky with food." Ehm thats about it really....



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20 Dec 2011, 5:20 am

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
Every link you posted supported my assertions. I explain to you 'why' these situations were occurring and 'how' they were being played out. You refuse to acknowledge and accept my explainations.


Why do you think the court system is making the decisions that they are making ???[/quote]

Because society is constructed upon valuing some categories of people over other categories, and thinks disabled people are worth less than abled people.

Here's another one that is very explicit about how the typical assumptions about parents of disabled children were not in fact true, and yet the media and public did exactly the same thing with him:

http://dawn.th*t.net/Tracy_Latimer.html#Facts

At the very least, Robert Latimer was sentenced to 25 years in prison for murdering his daughter, despite the saccharine appeals for sympathy and compassion for the hardships he had to face as a parent with a child that required so much effort from both him and his wife to take care of.

Except Tracy lived at a respite home, and was only with her parents because she was scheduled for surgery. 12 days before she was killed, she was offered a permanent institutional placement where she could be cared for. She also attended school daily, and was generally happy per others' reports. And yet her father, who didn't have to manage full time care with no support still killed her, and he was still characterized as overburdened and tragic, someone who was driven to murder his own child because she was in so much pain (due to a dislocated hip that she was about to go to surgery for, and the pain itself was manageable with painkillers) because of her disability (not true).

And Ozzy Osbourne even composed a song in Robert Latimer's honor, to imagine the thoughts that must have gone through his head while he murdered his daughter:

http://www.contactmusic.com/news/osbour ... ng_1143603

Where are the songs for Tracy Latimer?

And ever since Robert Latimer's trial, murders of disabled children have increased in Canada:

http://www.phen.ab.ca/materials/het/het12-01c.asp

Quote:
Three days after the first Latimer trial, Gloria Christianson alerted Ontario Social Services that her friend Cathy Wilkieson was distraught and talking about killing her 16-year-old son. Ryan Wilkieson also had multiple disabilities, though less severe than Tracy Latimer's. According to Christianson, the media coverage of the case had a profound effect on this depressed mother. Less than two weeks later, Cathy Wilkieson killed her son and herself in their car with carbon monoxide (Sobsey, 1995).

Although the Canadian homicide rate in general has declined to its lowest level in 30 years, there has been significant increase in filicides (Fedorowycz, 2000) that coincide with the positive publicity for justifying filicides provided by the Latimer trial. Between 1994 and 1998, the number of children under the age of 12 murdered by their parents increased by 45% to 7.1% of all homicides in Canada (compared to 4.9% for 1974-1983). This sharp increase followed a decreasing trend from 1974 through 1993. A Royal Canadian Mounted Police report provides similar but slightly different data. They report the number of Canadian children killed by parents or guardians for each year from 1990 to 1998. From 1990 to 1993, the average number was 31.75 per year (range: 33-37). From 1994 to 1998, the average number jumped to 49.0 (range: 45 to 62/ year). This represents an increase in filicides of 54.3% during a time when the overall homicide rate in Canada dropped 14.5%. If we expected the murders of children by their parents to drop along with the general homicide rate rather than stay at the 1990-1993 rate, the effective increase would be more than 69%. This translates to between 18 and 22 more murdered children each year between 1994 and 1998.


It seems that characterizing parents who murder their children as compassionate victims who were overburdened by the demands of caring for their disabled children and lacked sufficient services and support, whose murders are presented by the press as mercy killings, seems to encourage more parents to do the same with their disabled children. Are you sure all that compassion for the perpetrators is wise or even accurate? The same things get said every time, but it's not always true. It wasn't true for Robert Latimer - Tracy had all the care and services she needed to function in society, and her father barely had any direct responsibilities in managing her care, and yet he killed her anyway and claimed it was out of compassion.

I don't agree with your assertions because your assertions are the problem I have been arguing against all day in this thread. Parents who murder their disabled children already get tons of compassion and sympathy. Why argue for giving them more? The whole thing is a cultural narrative that probably doesn't even account for the facts of any particular case, let alone all of them. Everyone has a pre-written script for how to respond to all kinds of situations, and when it comes to the alleged "mercy" of murdering disabled people, it is always an outpouring of compassion and sympathy for the murderers, and at best, "it's better this way" for the children. Despite that, the legal system does sometimes get it right, but more often seems to get it wrong, and the media seems incapable of getting it right at all.

(TheWalrus, I think this was one of the links I gave you? It is a bit scholarly)



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20 Dec 2011, 5:34 am

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
I openned this discussion with you are comparing apples to oranges BUT you refuse to acknowledge what i was talking about which was there is a difference between caring for disabled children and normal children. You wouldn't even acknowledge the foundation of what these cases and situations were built upon.

This is emotionalism on your part.


I never said there wasn't a difference between caring for disabled children and abled children. I said there was a difference in valuing them, and you started arguing for compassion and sympathy for parents who murder their own children. But only for parents who murder their disabled children because life is so hard when you have a disabled child.

And yes, I am emotionally invested in what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with that and it is not even remotely a valid argument to claim that there's something wrong with emotional investment. If you don't care, why argue in the first place? At any point have I tried to boil your arguments down to overly simplistic soundbites such as "black and white thinking" and "This is emotionalism on your part?" Or how about "forcing my myopic perspective onto others?"

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
IF you speak in terms of pure logic without emotion and dealing in costs to family and society than we will have reduced a human life to a commodity. This is what i was alluding to when i was referring to the unspoken and nuances. These cases are based upon facts and mitigating circumstances that includes the state of being of both parent and child. These situations are NOT decided upon one rule and one judgement without carefully consideration of cause and effect. "


I am not reducing human lives to commodities here. I am not arguing that murdering a disabled child argues for mitigating circumstances for the murderers. I am not saying that a disabled child is worth more or less than an abled child. However, when society views some lives as more valuable than others, that will be reflected in the justice system and the media, as well as how people discuss these situations on forums, blogs, etc. It all trickles downward, and we end up in a debate in which it is seriously and without irony argued that parents who murder their own disabled children deserve compassion and sympathy because of mitigating circumstances, such as disabled children being harder to care for and handle. I have sympathy and compassion for parents who have a hard time with their children because of whatever reason - and there are so many reasons. But I have no compassion for murder.



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20 Dec 2011, 5:36 am

Farsight wrote:
I wonder what a video about high functioning asperger would look like? Probably not very exciting.
One should probably make a joke about that.
"Soo how is it to care for a child with such a terrible disability?". "Well he is not the most popular kid in school, sits by the computer alot and is a bit picky with food." Ehm thats about it really....


Lots of people diagnosed with AS have more serious difficulties than that. Go check out MrXxx's first post in this thread for a description of raising three sons with AS.



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20 Dec 2011, 5:46 am

Verdandi wrote:
TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
Every link you posted supported my assertions. I explain to you 'why' these situations were occurring and 'how' they were being played out. You refuse to acknowledge and accept my explainations.


Why do you think the court system is making the decisions that they are making ???


Because society is constructed upon valuing some categories of people over other categories, and thinks disabled people are worth less than abled people.

Here's another one that is very explicit about how the typical assumptions about parents of disabled children were not in fact true, and yet the media and public did exactly the same thing with him:

http://dawn.th*t.net/Tracy_Latimer.html#Facts

At the very least, Robert Latimer was sentenced to 25 years in prison for murdering his daughter, despite the saccharine appeals for sympathy and compassion for the hardships he had to face as a parent with a child that required so much effort from both him and his wife to take care of.

Except Tracy lived at a respite home, and was only with her parents because she was scheduled for surgery. 12 days before she was killed, she was offered a permanent institutional placement where she could be cared for. She also attended school daily, and was generally happy per others' reports. And yet her father, who didn't have to manage full time care with no support still killed her, and he was still characterized as overburdened and tragic, someone who was driven to murder his own child because she was in so much pain (due to a dislocated hip that she was about to go to surgery for, and the pain itself was manageable with painkillers) because of her disability (not true).

And Ozzy Osbourne even composed a song in Robert Latimer's honor, to imagine the thoughts that must have gone through his head while he murdered his daughter:

http://www.contactmusic.com/news/osbour ... ng_1143603

Where are the songs for Tracy Latimer?

And ever since Robert Latimer's trial, murders of disabled children have increased in Canada:

http://www.phen.ab.ca/materials/het/het12-01c.asp

Quote:
Three days after the first Latimer trial, Gloria Christianson alerted Ontario Social Services that her friend Cathy Wilkieson was distraught and talking about killing her 16-year-old son. Ryan Wilkieson also had multiple disabilities, though less severe than Tracy Latimer's. According to Christianson, the media coverage of the case had a profound effect on this depressed mother. Less than two weeks later, Cathy Wilkieson killed her son and herself in their car with carbon monoxide (Sobsey, 1995).

Although the Canadian homicide rate in general has declined to its lowest level in 30 years, there has been significant increase in filicides (Fedorowycz, 2000) that coincide with the positive publicity for justifying filicides provided by the Latimer trial. Between 1994 and 1998, the number of children under the age of 12 murdered by their parents increased by 45% to 7.1% of all homicides in Canada (compared to 4.9% for 1974-1983). This sharp increase followed a decreasing trend from 1974 through 1993. A Royal Canadian Mounted Police report provides similar but slightly different data. They report the number of Canadian children killed by parents or guardians for each year from 1990 to 1998. From 1990 to 1993, the average number was 31.75 per year (range: 33-37). From 1994 to 1998, the average number jumped to 49.0 (range: 45 to 62/ year). This represents an increase in filicides of 54.3% during a time when the overall homicide rate in Canada dropped 14.5%. If we expected the murders of children by their parents to drop along with the general homicide rate rather than stay at the 1990-1993 rate, the effective increase would be more than 69%. This translates to between 18 and 22 more murdered children each year between 1994 and 1998.


It seems that characterizing parents who murder their children as compassionate victims who were overburdened by the demands of caring for their disabled children and lacked sufficient services and support, whose murders are presented by the press as mercy killings, seems to encourage more parents to do the same with their disabled children. Are you sure all that compassion for the perpetrators is wise or even accurate? The same things get said every time, but it's not always true. It wasn't true for Robert Latimer - Tracy had all the care and services she needed to function in society, and her father barely had any direct responsibilities in managing her care, and yet he killed her anyway and claimed it was out of compassion.

I don't agree with your assertions because your assertions are the problem I have been arguing against all day in this thread. Parents who murder their disabled children already get tons of compassion and sympathy. Why argue for giving them more? The whole thing is a cultural narrative that probably doesn't even account for the facts of any particular case, let alone all of them. Everyone has a pre-written script for how to respond to all kinds of situations, and when it comes to the alleged "mercy" of murdering disabled people, it is always an outpouring of compassion and sympathy for the murderers, and at best, "it's better this way" for the children. Despite that, the legal system does sometimes get it right, but more often seems to get it wrong, and the media seems incapable of getting it right at all.

(TheWalrus, I think this was one of the links I gave you? It is a bit scholarly)[/quote]

I agreed to disagree. You were the one who came back and posted links to try to prove a point i dont agree with. Parents who are raising disabled children get tons of sympathy and compassion BUT they get very little help from the greater society at large. While i don't agree with or condone the actions of the parents, i have compassion and understanding in regards to 'what' may have drove them to commit an act of destruction.

Speaking of pre-written scripts, there seems to be one going around that automatically villifies a parent for garnering any amount of sympathy from society. One of the biggest complaints floating around this board is the high level of sympathy and compassion that parents of Autistic children receive from society. Unfortunately, this point of view isn't simply a characteristic of Autism; It's a reflection of society. Quite a few of you are just like your neuro-typical counter-parts, selfish and self absorbed.

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20 Dec 2011, 6:39 am

Yes, that is a link you gave me. I thought the pain Tracy seemed to be in might have been a suitable justification even though she was reported as generally being happy with the rest of her life.

Verdandi wrote:
Except Tracy lived at a respite home, and was only with her parents because she was scheduled for surgery. 12 days before she was killed, she was offered a permanent institutional placement where she could be cared for. She also attended school daily, and was generally happy per others' reports. And yet her father, who didn't have to manage full time care with no support still killed her, and he was still characterized as overburdened and tragic, someone who was driven to murder his own child because she was in so much pain (due to a dislocated hip that she was about to go to surgery for, and the pain itself was manageable with painkillers) because of her disability (not true).
I don't remember that being in there, I thought that the pain was because of her disability and the painkillers had unfortunate side effects. I also didn't realise she'd been offered permanent care.



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20 Dec 2011, 6:46 am

I'm new here. The NT mum of a 13yr old boy with severe autism as well as a 4 yr old boy with PDD-NOS. Also mum to 3 NT children (11, 7 and 1).
I have experienced everything this video shows and more. I LOVE all my children. I don't wish to kill off any of them because they are 'defective'. I find the assumptions that these women hate their kids, lives etc... so offensive. We struggle as these families do, they are talking about the hard times to get help for their children, their families. There are people who abuse or hate their children, disabled or not, these women are not those kind of people. All I see is them doing everything they can to improve the lives of people they love very much. I would agree that it was a big mistake to talk about such desperate feelings, such as driving off a bridge with your child, in front of your child. Doesn't mean she hates her, or wished her dead. She was feeling like the options offered to her for the care and education of her daughter were so grossly inadequate (for her daughter) that the situation was hopeless, that no-one cared, that they may as well be dead. Dark and horrible thoughts, but they come.
So, from the point of view of someone who is like these mums- seriously have a heart.
To those who were understanding, I read your words with tears of relief. :heart:



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20 Dec 2011, 9:13 am

Those parents who murder their special needs children are going to have to answer to God one day. This is why I hope that assisted suicide and euthanasia never becomes legal. Just imagine how many more parents will be murdering their special needs children if it does become legal. What if those kids wanted to live. You even read about parents murdering their children if they have Asperger's Syndrome. Give me a break. You don't just kill somebody just because they're handicapped, no matter how long the person has been alive and fetuses are alive as well.


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20 Dec 2011, 2:28 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Those parents who murder their special needs children are going to have to answer to God one day. This is why I hope that assisted suicide and euthanasia never becomes legal.


Assisted suicide has nothing to do with this topic (because it's people wanting to kill only themselves) - and nor does God.

You don't need to bring up God to prove that killing people is wrong. The issue here is whether or not it's wrong to talk about killing people. Bringing God into that discussion doesn't help, either.


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20 Dec 2011, 2:31 pm

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Verdandi, I remember a while ago we discussed this topic (actiually it was "compassionate killing") and I thought your examples weren't valid comparisons. Much better there, I agree with you that that is disgusting.


My examples were valid, but narrow and unclear, I think - I don't remember what they were, just that google was giving me very few hits on what I was trying to find, and I wasn't satisfied with what I did link.

Thank you for dropping in to say this.


Every link you posted supported my assertions. I explained to you 'why' these situations were occurring and 'how' they were being played out. You refuse to acknowledge and accept my explainations.

Why do you think the court system is making the decisions that they are making ???

TheSunAlsoRises


There have also been deaths because the children were starved and trapped in filthy cages. Let me guess, it's okay. Poor parents.

Seriously, some of these parents who think it's okay to abuse your kids like this, have you gone to get checked out yourself? In your profile it says you have aspergers yet you have no empathy for people on the autism spectrum.

Miss-Understood. Have a heart? I don't think that lady is really poor and can't afford at least some choices in where her daughter goes. This is your first post here to defend the parent, interesting. Can you actually have a heart for the child that had to hear her own mother say that or do you think not speaking means not hearing? Videos like this encourage parents to think it's okay to treat their autistic children badly or to say what you want in front of them.

The parents could be setting positive examples so society will understand your children but instead, you've fallen for the pity me scheme. Is that the only way a charity can make their money? Exploit the children, make them out to be monsters and the parents something to be pitied? Most parents that have come in here follow this pity me routine. This shows how gullible people really are.

Choose.

1.Make the world a better place for your child and society learns how to accept and embrace your child.
2. Keep the world a dark place for your child and hope people give you attention and sympathy.
3. Make the world at least tolerable for your child meaning doesn't have to be picked on in schools through awareness.
4. I don't care. I didn't really want to have kids.

You are the ones who should be putting yourself in your child's shoes.

Try that for once.

Start here. Make sure if you are wearing headphones it's turned up well.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plPNhooUUuc[/youtube]



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20 Dec 2011, 3:01 pm

These children are totally alone, but not because of autism. :(



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20 Dec 2011, 3:14 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Farsight wrote:
I wonder what a video about high functioning asperger would look like? Probably not very exciting.
One should probably make a joke about that.
"Soo how is it to care for a child with such a terrible disability?". "Well he is not the most popular kid in school, sits by the computer alot and is a bit picky with food." Ehm thats about it really....


Lots of people diagnosed with AS have more serious difficulties than that. Go check out MrXxx's first post in this thread for a description of raising three sons with AS.


He did say high functioning asperger, I am more or less like that. Everyone is different, and some really are only barely disabled.


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20 Dec 2011, 3:58 pm

Somebody should step in and send those children to good foster homes. There are many good foster parents who are trained and willing to adopt children with special needs. If I had that training, I'd be adopting those kids.


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