What are your thoughts on "political correctness"?

Page 11 of 13 [ 198 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Nonperson
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,258

19 Mar 2013, 2:38 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:

That's another thing. Changing the language used to describe a group doesn't get rid of the pejorative connotations about X group. The new term just gets those connotations. As a society I think we should focus on getting rid of the negative connotations and the stigma against X group not the name that has taken them on-the new name will take on the same connotations.

This is true.

Sometimes I get the impression such name changes aren't initiated by the group, but by someone else - like I was talking about before, to show one's education and have "in-group" lingo. More often groups seem to reclaim the words already used to refer to them and put a positive spin on them, which is the opposite sort of thing, like with "queer".

Still, people are setting up a false dichotomy here between people who want to adopt less offensive terminology and people who presumably want more fundamental change. I haven't seen this play out in real life at all. The people who oppose inclusive language usually oppose feminism as well, for instance, at least because they consider it unnecessary. The people who insist on using ethnic slurs are also likely to hate immigration. Words don't always accurately reflect a person's opinions, but when that person is literate, well-informed, and arguing about the topic on the internet, they very likely do.

dand
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 26

19 Mar 2013, 2:47 pm

I completely agree that political correctness is a clever ploy by the powers that be to curb freedom of speech, while at the same time making people think its Government cares about the 'well being' of all citizens.

All it does is segregate people more into their own groups and alienates the common native from the minorities.

I am no rascist and like to believe I have Liberal values but political correctness is a black decay within multiculturalism and it has destroyed the UK. America is mostly too far on the right of politics for it to get as bad as the UK but its getting worse in the States all the time.

eric76
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,660
Location: In the heart of the dust bowl

19 Mar 2013, 3:20 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but black people were never offended at the term "blackboard" - that is the point. it was a made-up controversy.

Not originally, but I know some who have jumped on the bandwagon purely to be awkward. People like to stir trouble.

can you point me to a source? everything i have seen states otherwise.

I'm speaking on a personal level. Obviously I'm not generalising, but I'm only saying that some do.

considering that a google search turns up nothing, i am highly skeptical that any black person has ever been offended by the word "blackboard" unless they say it for themselves.

I would feel offended by it if someone said that to me...

I would contend that your feeling of being offended would not be at all rational. Would a reasonable person be offended by the use of the term blackboard? Not at all.

mikassyna
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2013
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,319
Location: New York, NY

19 Mar 2013, 3:31 pm

eric76 wrote:

I would contend that your feeling of being offended would not be at all rational. Would a reasonable person be offended by the use of the term blackboard? Not at all.

Quite honestly, the most appropriate term would be "greenboard" or "chalkboard" because hardly any of those boards are black that I've seen. However if the board is black then it's not a misnomer and the term "blackboard" could then be used liberally (no pun intended). But it really does irk me that something is called by a name that defies its description.

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

19 Mar 2013, 3:51 pm

eric76 wrote:

Have you seen them or do you think that any image of a black is racist?

No, I do not think that any image of a black person is racist.

Quote:

I bet you think that the Aunt Jemima brand of products is racist, too. And probably Sambo's Restaurants as well.

Actually, I do.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ma/256185/
http://gawker.com/397129/just-how-racis ... unt-jemima
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/199 ... ast-cereal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(racial_term)

This page covers many images, including the aforementioned gollywogs:

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/picaninny/

Quote:

How about various foods such as Hoecakes? Hoppin' John? Grits?

I don't know anything about hoecakes. Hoppin' John's foods seem to represent John (the writer), so I do not even know why you brought it up.

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

19 Mar 2013, 3:55 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:

Well in a previous quote you said you'd stop "assuming people are just using criticisms of PC to excuse being racist , sexist ect when....." I think that dismisses the other's position out of hand and closes the door to a real discussion in the sense that you're making an assumption and automatically characterizing the other side as bad people (racist, sexist ect). I didn't mean you were literally refusing to discuss things but by demonizing the other side it closes the door (metaphorically) to a serious discussion with them.

I don't think many people who express racist or sexist ideas are necessarily bad. I think many are misguided, misinformed, and often downright ignorant.

It's when they insist that there's nothing wrong with sexism or racism and they're entitled to say horrible things about people on the basis of who they are that I conclude that they're likely horrible as well.

(just my perspective - if that comes across as lecturing or whatever, I apologize)

Last edited by Verdandi on 19 Mar 2013, 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cafeaulait
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,539
Location: Europe

19 Mar 2013, 4:02 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but black people were never offended at the term "blackboard" - that is the point. it was a made-up controversy.

Not originally, but I know some who have jumped on the bandwagon purely to be awkward. People like to stir trouble.

can you point me to a source? everything i have seen states otherwise.

I'm speaking on a personal level. Obviously I'm not generalising, but I'm only saying that some do.

considering that a google search turns up nothing, i am highly skeptical that any black person has ever been offended by the word "blackboard" unless they say it for themselves.

I would feel offended by it if someone said that to me...

what do they call it in your country?

just board

then it is highly unlikely anyone is going to use that word in your country, unless they were describing a particular board as opposed to another board.

lol i was just kidding about finding the term blackboard offensive.
it's a board, and its colour is kind of dark green. some of our chalkboards are actually black...
so i think there is nothing wrong with the word

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

19 Mar 2013, 4:04 pm

b9 wrote:

[q
in australia, there were 2 types of gollywogs. one was a gollywog biscuit, and the other was a type of stuffed gollywog toys. i did not like the gollywog biscuit, but i remember having a stuffed gollywog with a green clown cone hat on when i was about three. i never associated either the biscuit or the toys with a race of people. they were their own identities in my mind.

You didn't have to, because the portrayal of gollywogs wasn't about you or people like you. I am not saying "owning a gollywog or eating the biscuits automatically inculcates racist attitudes and makes you a bad person" I am saying that gollywogs were a racist caricature. This is described here:

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/

Quote:

whether the original creators of the concept of the "gollywog" had a definite motive of castigation of negroes, or if their motive was simple caricaturizations of them from the time without malice, i do not know.

It was likely caricature, not castigation. However, malice does not have to be present for something to also be harmful.

Quote:

i do think that the reality of the availability of gollywogs in australia until the early 1990's was not often influential in any negative way to the mindsets of anyone who had one.

Except, of course, the notion that such racist imagery of black people was acceptable and even endearing.

Quote:

what is a valid reason for the concept of a gollywog to be considered racist?
is it because their "skin" is black? why is that considered to be offensive? gollywogs were never portrayed or stylized in a negative way.
they were always cheery, and there was no negative agenda that tried to control the facial expressions of gollywogs. every gollywog i ever saw looked happy and friendly.
so the only complaint that most people have (after everything nice about the concept is boiled away in the tempest of their uncharitable appraisal) , is that a gollywogs skin is black? if their skin was white, then no one would have a problem (including black people)?. why do people who exult themselves as champions for the down trodden, often take offense and want to censor displays of information that directly and unambiguously refer who they are the champions of?

No, it is not offensive just because their skin is black, but because they look like pickaninny caricatures and are steeped in minstrel performances (wherein white actors apply blackface and portray exaggerated, caricatured, stereotypes of black people).

Verdandi wrote:

"Lubra" appears to be an ethnic or racist slur, actually.

Quote:

i thought that the word "lubra" was the term for a female aborigine.
i was not cognizant of the fact that it was a derogatory term.

I am not positive that it is, but I didn't find anything indicating that it is a neutral or positive term.

Quote:

i do not pontificate to such a degree as you do about whether my happiness is justified.

I was not telling you whether or not your happiness is justified. I was trying to provide you with more information.

Last edited by Verdandi on 19 Mar 2013, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 22,023
Location: with bucephalus

19 Mar 2013, 4:04 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but black people were never offended at the term "blackboard" - that is the point. it was a made-up controversy.

Not originally, but I know some who have jumped on the bandwagon purely to be awkward. People like to stir trouble.

can you point me to a source? everything i have seen states otherwise.

I'm speaking on a personal level. Obviously I'm not generalising, but I'm only saying that some do.

considering that a google search turns up nothing, i am highly skeptical that any black person has ever been offended by the word "blackboard" unless they say it for themselves.

I would feel offended by it if someone said that to me...

what do they call it in your country?

just board

then it is highly unlikely anyone is going to use that word in your country, unless they were describing a particular board as opposed to another board.

you win the thread. i was so worried that some americans or canadians were going to go to your country and inadvertently cause offense. *phew*

_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
viewtopic.php?t=391105

eric76
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,660
Location: In the heart of the dust bowl

19 Mar 2013, 4:33 pm

Verdandi wrote:

eric76 wrote:

Have you seen them or do you think that any image of a black is racist?

No, I do not think that any image of a black person is racist.

Quote:

I bet you think that the Aunt Jemima brand of products is racist, too. And probably Sambo's Restaurants as well.

Actually, I do.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ma/256185/
http://gawker.com/397129/just-how-racis ... unt-jemima
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/199 ... ast-cereal

First of all, I find the practice of posting a link as an answer to a question to be a very lazy practice. Post the link, but also provide excerpts or an executive summary to indicate what is there.

That said, none of those links try to make any argument as to the use of Aunt Jemima being racist. Hmmm. Maybe you wanted to post excerpts but couldn't find any that would actually support your position.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(racial_term)

This is even more absurd. Sambo's Restaurants (used to be quite a chain) were named after the two partners, Sam and Bo.

Quote:

This page covers many images, including the aforementioned gollywogs:

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/picaninny/

Quote:

How about various foods such as Hoecakes? Hoppin' John? Grits?

I don't know anything about hoecakes. Hoppin' John's foods seem to represent John (the writer), so I do not even know why you brought it up.

John (the writer)? Where do you get that?

Hoppin' John is a southern dish made with either field peas (my preference) or black eyed peas and rice as the main ingredients.

Hoecakes, Hoppin' John, and grits are all foods often associated, rightly or wrongly, with blacks in the south.

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

19 Mar 2013, 6:06 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

muldoon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but black people were never offended at the term "blackboard" - that is the point. it was a made-up controversy.

Not originally, but I know some who have jumped on the bandwagon purely to be awkward. People like to stir trouble.

can you point me to a source? everything i have seen states otherwise.

I'm speaking on a personal level. Obviously I'm not generalising, but I'm only saying that some do.

considering that a google search turns up nothing, i am highly skeptical that any black person has ever been offended by the word "blackboard" unless they say it for themselves.

I would feel offended by it if someone said that to me...

Why?

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

19 Mar 2013, 6:11 pm

I guess that Im old fashioned.

So bring up to speed.

To me the word 'gay' means (a) happy or carefree, or (b) homosexual.

The latter being considered by homosexuals themselves to be a positive label that they embrace because it is better than 'fag' or 'queer'.

But now the younger generation thinks of it as a negative word as in "thats so gay".

So what I am asking is: what exactly does someone mean by 'gay' when they say "thats so gay"?

They obviously dont mean "it so happy and carefree". They are connecting the thing they are disparaging to homosexual people. But what exactly IS the connection? Its not used to mean that the thing being disparaged is "effeminant when it should be masculine" (or vice versa) which would (at least stereotypically) relates to homosexuals in a somewhat logical way. So when you disarage something or someone as 'so gay' what exactly does that mean? And how does what it means connect to homosexual people?

daydreamer84
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jul 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,001
Location: My own little world

19 Mar 2013, 8:27 pm

Verdandi wrote:

daydreamer84 wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

I don't think many people who express racist or sexist ideas are necessarily bad. I think many are misguided, misinformed, and often downright ignorant.

Fair enough but I still think assuming anyone who questions political correctness is ignorant or misinformed closes discussion in the same way......if it's ignorant simply to take the position of the other side then the other side is automatically discredited and there's no room for meaningful discussion with them so I think my point still stands.

Verdandi wrote:

It's when they insist that there's nothing wrong with sexism or racism and they're entitled to say horrible things about people on the basis of who they are that I conclude that they're likely horrible as well.

Well ,we might disagree about what's constitutes a horrible thing and what doesn't-it's subjective anyway- but I agree with you that if someone knows they're wrong to do so but they say something horrible (by my definition) to hurt others they are most likely horrible.

Last edited by daydreamer84 on 19 Mar 2013, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daydreamer84
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jul 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,001
Location: My own little world

19 Mar 2013, 8:38 pm

Nonperson wrote:

daydreamer84 wrote:

Well there isn't a dichotomy but I do think there are people who want more fundamental change rather than focusing on offensive terminology. I'm not saying here aren't those who just don't want to change their language and actions ...there are. It's just not everyone who questions using PC language or certain practices falls into that category. My Atypical Development prof -this is a fourth year uni Psychology course - worked (works?) with kids with intellectual disabilities and he was very sensitive to them and concerned about them -he put a lot of emphasis on figuring out what's best for patients rather than relying on the text ect. Anyway he thought that changing the term from mentally ret*d to intellectual disability wouldn't help them-the pejorative connotations will just attach themselves to the new term. He talked about how it was:
Idiot
moron/feeble minded
Mentally ret*d
Intellectual Disability
and he said we had to change the way society views these people rather than changing the term-work on getting rid of the stigma against those with this kind of disability.

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

19 Mar 2013, 8:55 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:

I am not maintaining that assumption with you. In fact, I didn't even start with it because your arguments were already significantly more nuanced than most. I apologize for how I stated that because it does come off fairly badly.

When I see the phrase "PC" come up, I am instantly suspicious because my experiences tell me that a significant number of people who complain about it use that as an excuse to dismiss valid concerns. I am able to change my mind given information that does not agree with that perception.

Quote:

My Atypical Development prof -this is a fourth year uni Psychology course - worked (works?) with kids with intellectual disabilities and he was very sensitive to them and concerned about them -he put a lot of emphasis on figuring out what's best for patients rather than relying on the text ect. Anyway he thought that changing the term from mentally ret*d to intellectual disability wouldn't help them-the pejorative connotations will just attach themselves to the new term. He talked about how it was:
Idiot
moron/feeble minded
Mentally ret*d
Intellectual Disability
and he said we had to change the way society views these people rather than changing the term-work on getting rid of the stigma against those with this kind of disability.

And a lot of people who are intellectually disabled are against the use of the phrase "mentally ret*d," and should someone who is not actually a part of that group have his opinion on the subject matter more than theirs? Are they simply seeking political correctness? Are there valid reasons they might have for not wanting that label to be used?

Being against the label does not necessarily mean not caring about the stigma, either. Eliminating the stigma is important and changing the language won't eliminate the stigma. However, I am not so sure that when people don't want particular words used to describe them that it is strictly about removing stigma and possibly more about how people emotionally feel about having those words used to describe them.

I'll just say: I do not think there's any point to telling people not to use words. However, I want people to know what those words represent. I also think that if the language is considered acceptable, that this does to some extent facilitate the stigma.

Nonperson
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,258

19 Mar 2013, 9:11 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:

I agree, it probably wouldn't, although that isn't an argument against changing it, really. If using whatever the new term is will make someone feel more accepted even for a short while, that's a good enough reason to do it as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, changing terminology is not really much to ask. I see that sometimes people feel things are changing too fast and they can't keep up, and are stuck using the "wrong" term for that reason - I've felt like that myself. That's why I wouldn't make assumptions about someone who may not know what the current - oh, let's be honest, the current fashion is. But there is more to it than just fashion, and some words have negative connotations that don't simply come from the prejudice against the group but is contained within the word itself. Take "overweight" vs. "fat" (one implies the weight is incorrect, while the other is only descriptive) or "disorder" vs. "difference" (one is a value judgment and the other isn't). People who don't have those words applied to them might not notice (and some that do might not notice) but that doesn't mean those who bring it up should be ignored.

Page 11 of 13 [ 198 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 Next

Jump to:

What are your thoughts on "political correctness"? Post Reply New Topic

What are your thoughts on "political correctness"?