Picking Up Social Situations Intuitively....

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Are you saying you don't believe it will actually work even though you haven't given it your best shot? Being in denial is a way of protecting yourself. A friend I had a few years ago told me about "killing your enemy with kindness"..Have you heard of that? I gradually learned what he meant. It's a very useful technique for disarming a real or potential enemy.


I believe the reason you are treated like this is due to your presentation betraying a fear of being hurt and rejected, and/or resentment and/or anger & hostility. These negative emotions are off-putting as they can be read in your body language and tone of voice. When NTs pick up those emotions, they may feel the need to protect themselves from you, seeing you as "an enemy and a threat".

Now this may not be exactly what's happening with you but it's probably close enough. If you want acceptance from NTs [or to avoid turning them into enemies], you have to project acceptance toward them. However you feel toward them is flawlessly incorporated into your body language... Make sense?

not really alba, the two most recent situations involved alcoholic neighbours who simply wouldn't take no for an answer, no matter how politely you expressed it, or how many explanations you offered.

the other one is that i was befriended by a sociopath, naturally i needed to get out of that. sociopaths are parasites and they don't like losing a source of 'food'.

Postperson...when you are thoroughly convinced that your own happiness absolutely depends on NOT turning NTs into enemies....you will know what you have to do.

What you have to do is smile, be pleasant, and simultaneously draw the boundaries for what you will and will not do. If necessary, make a mantra for yourself and keep repeating it in your head....

Mantra: Happy, pleasant, courteous.....simple, clear, focused. Keep repeating and concentrating on these positive attitudes so that the fear, beytrayal, hurt, suffering, anger, etc....all that icky stuff doesn't have a chance to creep into your thoughts.

And as a foundation for it all, have the idea that encounters with you will make them happy and that you are going to be easy for them to deal with.

^^I was talking about relatively normal people...not alcoholics and sociopaths!

Last edited by alba on 14 Feb 2009, 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

oh well i'm actually a christian and i understand what you're advising from that point of view, ' a soft answer turneth away wrath' etc, but at the same time, it's not like jesus went around 'not making enemies' you know?

my own happiness isn't centred around not making enemies, it's more to do with hoping to make the grade as a christian in terms of doing enough, or getting enough of it right to hope for salvation.

the sort of thing you are describing is probably a great idea for an 'instructive' video, for aspie adult learning, but i think i need to see it in pictures.

Alcoholics and sociopaths--you just want to make sure you are protected from them and that you have your boundaries clearly drawn in your own mind. Killing them with kindness is sometimes your only recourse....but not to avoid turning them into enemies. Rather to keep yourself and your family safe and secure.

IMPORTANT: The quote in AmberEyes' post is not from Greentea but from ephemerella. Greentea only quoted ephemerella.

alba wrote: Mantra: Happy, pleasant, courteous.....simple, clear, focused. Keep repeating and concentrating on these positive attitudes

When I discovered this AS thing and the lack of hope of ever being accepted / liked by people, I went into emergency mode. This means I concentrate all my efforts into the one thing that I've noticed gives me results (all the rest, zillions of things I tried throughout 4 decades either backfired or plain didn't work). But the one thing that was urgent in my life and I realized I fortunately did have control over was: NOT MAKING MORE ENEMIES. I only use this strategy at work, because work relationships are the only ones I can't avoid (I've isolated myself from any other kind of relating). I also use this strategy with doctors, hospital staff, caregivers (my parents and I are sick and I can't afford making enemies in those arenas either). I'm grateful to God that at least he granted me the ability to understand now, in my almost fifties, how to stop making enemies every second. I still make enemies all the time, the strategy has VERY limited success, but at least it's something.

When I'm at work I concentrate on this mantra: smiley, courteous, non-threatening look, simple, no direct truths but manipulate and stab behind the back only, make no signs of wanting a higher place in the hierarchy, pretend to be the submissive underdog and establish your boundaries only through indirect manipulation, no direct self-assertion.

I'm not advocating this as the panacea, it's just what I was able to come up with as my emergency plan because I'm totally alone in the world and I'm trying to survive.

A word of caution, though: tone down the rosiness in your book. Aspies see through it and are often put off by it, it's one of the main reasons we will refrain from buying a book about our condition.

It's a very important subject for apsies, the not making enemies thing. I'm interested to read what anyone has to say about it.

I forgot to share the results of my strategy: my co-workers and bosses are convinced that I'm a simpleton who can do no harm. They still ignore me totally and I'm the only one who always eats alone at lunch time because nobody wants to be seen with me, but they appreciate me and pity me enough that they don't attack me. They see me as absolutely no competition for anyone. And when nobody else is looking, usually when I'm doing extra hours at night, when the bosses and alphas are not around, when the pecking order is not so crucial, they'll secretly come and relate to me with warmth and lots of friendliness.

The reason I used to make enemies all the time is I have the talents to be very high up in the pecking order and to be seen as huge competition, but I don't have the intuitive knowledge (and motivation) to defend my place in the hierarchy and keep my due place as a leader. So the alphas would put everyone against me and I'd have to run away before the gang would destroy me.

Nowadays I've learned to identify quickly who the alphas are in a group, then I run to them immediately before they feel threatened by me, and "show them my belly" quick (meaning: I talk to them to indirectly tell them that I'm placing myself under them in the pecking order, not to worry, I won't try to compete).

The sure way to make enemies all the time is to decide that you can avoid playing the pecking order game.

postperson, I didn't know you were a devout Christian. If you can scrape the money for a plane ticket, you can stay at my house and my little old car and me will be honoured and happy to take you to the places where Jesus walked. So you won't have many other expenses. The country is tiny, so everything is a short drive away. The best guide book for a trip here is the Bible (Old and New Testaments), so you don't need to hire a guided tour. And since it's my special interest, I know Jerusalem like the palm of my hand, including the off-the-beaten-path stuff.

Same here. Came to realization I couldn't afford to make any more enemies.

Thanks...appreciate all constructive criticism and feedback.

Apoligies in advance for being so verbose. And promise to limit any future posts to this thread..

I have a talent for being really obnoxious. Over my life, various friends have tried to explain the dynamics of how exactly I alienate people...and finally one day, it sunk in. But it took decades to figure it out. While there seems to be some overlap, my issues aren't identical to yours. I believe I have discovered the secret of keeping my obnoxious tendencies to myself, and not having such tendencies disrupt my social interactions----to the extent where they make people who must deal with me, miserable. I feel I have been able to structure a situation where people actually enjoy engaging with me, if only briefly. And that is because I am willing to try to make these encounters pleasant for them.[as opposed to being exclusively self-involved]


I am capable of doing this....with plumbers, carpenters, businesspeople, sometimes medical personnel [although this is where I can get myself into a real mess], supervisors and coworkers, government officials, and others whose services I require or with whom I am forced to socially comply..


As you are expressing complete disagreement with my position, it's pointless to say I adamantly disagree. However if I could change it to say this:

To decide that you can ALWAYS avoid the pecking order rituals and ALWAYS avoid taking your place in the pecking order is impractical. The major example of being unable to avoid pecking order is at work...with supervisors and co-workers.<---Now I agree with that.

But to get back to what you said...Perhaps we could agree to disagree?.. because the way you said it, IMO, is just plain wrong. Your words--The sure way to make enemies all the time is to decide that you can avoid playing the pecking order game. You may have tried to elaborate on this as it applies to yourself. But here you seem to be making a blanket statement that applies to all of us. And I feel strongly that it may only apply to you and people like you.

The point I have tried to both subtly and explicitly get across is that most NTs are open to new ways of doing things as most of them have also been hurt by pecking order rituals. When you show them that you have nothing against them personally...and prove to them that you are pleasant and easy to get along with, generally speaking, they have no problem with that. Body language conveys--- you may like them but what you don't like is the socially accepted way of doing things. This has been my experience.

I would go as far as to say that...even in a work environment, there are definitely ways of negotiating your way out of being ranked on the basis of your character. For instance, if a few of the people at your workplace are using you as a doormat or otherwise treating you in a condescending and degrading fashion, you may be able to negotiate a way of avoiding them completely. And if you can't, then you are at liberty to use your lunchbreak to find another job! [of course being ranked by your job skills is an absolute necessity and there's nothing to be done about that] If you have a sympathetic supervisor, you may be able to get them to intervene on your behalf.

One thing I absolutely refuse to tolerate for more than a few minutes...is being treated as someone's doormat and footstool. I think you and I are very stubborn people, Greentea. [well I am anyway] It works against me. And it works for me. If someone continually attempts to coerce me into being their doormat....I have a number of options, all of which I have had to employ in the past: Flee the situation and the person if possible, complain to the appropriate authorities, threaten to go to the police, actually go to the police, threaten a law suit, and hire an attorney. I simply will not put up with such indignities. I don't think anyone should have to.

As for dealing with alcoholics and sociopaths......no, thankyou. I will do everything in my power to avoid dealing with them including moving out of the vicinity in which they operate.

Have you visited the Employment Forum on WP? Have you seen how many of us are fired once and again for not taking up a place in the workplace society's pecking order, for avoiding coworkers completely due to being abused by them, for having lunch alone? We Aspies all start out by refusing to play the pecking order or being oblivious to it so we don't know we have to play it. The reason we do play it later on, is that we've been fired once and again with the famous last words: "You're not a team player [socially]." or "You're different". I think there are enough exceptions to your rule of success by abstaining from taking a place in the pecking order that you should reconsider it.

The worst thing you can do to an NT is confuse them with new experiences they're not ready for. A person not taking a place in the pecking order is the most confusing thing for them (as it is for all animals) and therefore a surefire way to get yourself hated, attacked, etc. Not to mention that if you don't place yourself in your right place in the PO, you'll be seen as defiant by those higher than you in the PO because you won't mind your behavior and won't be submissive enough to them, and you'll be quickly at risk of being sent to jail or a mental institution.

When I say DO NOT REFRAIN FROM PLAYING THE PECKING ORDER, I don't say it to disagree with Alba. I say it and repeat it because it's DANGEROUS ! !! !!

Greentea, I admitted the workplace is an exception but that one shouldn't have to put up with being treated as a doormat even, and especially, in the workplace. I also pointed out the important distinction between being ranked on the basis of one's job skills [necessary] and being ranked on the basis of one's character [mostly unnecessary].

The problem is that some of us, perhaps many of us, are in denial. We haven't really put our hearts into making it easier and more pleasant for NTs to get along with us. Many of us present conflict and confusion, we're self-involved, and we're difficult to get along with. Not to mention we're usually fearful and resentful about having been repeatedly rejected in the past, which outpictures in our body language. And I'm not talking about capitulating! [It may appear to some aspies that I'm coaching them to fit in] Just the opposite actually. I'm talking about - everybody equal. You don't have to be my doormat and I frankly refuse to be yours --- type of interaction.

IMO to play my role in the pecking order is to sell my soul. I refuse to do that. If you Greentea want to perpetuate the pecking order, leave me out of it. I will have no part of it when it isn't absolutely necessary. And I draw the line at being anyone's doormat. My boundaries are clear and firm. And I'm fully willing to face the consequences. Life as a member of the pecking order has no appeal whatsoever for me. I will avoid it whatever the cost, whenever possible. And it is almost always possible here at WP.

You imply this equality is dangerous and I have to admit you do have a point. However...and I mean this...I would most likely starve to death than be forced to submit to a pecking order based on my character. Now being in a pecking order because of my job skills is totally different...and I'm okay with that. But we have many many social encounters out of the workplace. And those are the ones I'm primarily talking about.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues with you. Unfortunately being concise is not my strong suit and I apologize for that.

I don't believe you.

And I hope that's not the solution you plan to advocate in your book.

I, for one, am glad that I am finally able to play the PO at work so I'm not dying of starvation yet. Life is too beautiful to end it simply because there are some nasty things I have to do to keep me alive, such as undergoing an operation and playing the PO.

And work is NOT an exception to a rule as you think. The only difference about work is that I GREENTEA need it to survive, unlike a husband, lover, friends, family, kids. Rich Aspies don't need to play the PO even at work, they can refuse to and when fired, they can go back to their mansions to live in total isolation.

wow! yeah i probably am 'devout' but in a offbeat way. Thanks so much for your kind and very attractive offer, i love the thought of it, but I can't do long distance flying, my back is bad and i'm tall, so sitting in 'cattle class' for 20+ hours is not really do-able for me. sigh. but it's a nice thought.

...

Last edited by marshall on 14 Feb 2009, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's quite naive, to think that the staff of waitresses at a bar (who are students during the day and don't plan to make waitressing their career) don't have a pecking order among them.

There's no escaping the pecking order. And if you try to escape it by going to live in the jungle with the animals, the PO is even more rigid with them.

Same as there's no escaping voting, where by not voting you're expressing your opinion too, if you don't play the PO you're passively accepting the lowest place in the hierarchy, which is lower than submissive and most inviting of abuse. This is why, I'll repeat once again, not playing the PO is one of the most dangerous things you can do to yourself.