Why do NTs turn nasty ...

Post Reply New Topic

One thing that I am thinking about all the questions asked is the question I would like to ask. Many of us can feel tired after a day with the kid gloves on, and tired of tiptoeing around peoples feelings all day, trying not to hurt. I personally feel I have to perform acrobatics in my daily life as to survive.

I am not condoning bashing of anyone but I would have thought that WP would be a place where I could come and just take off the gloves and the armour and say what I really think, but I sort of feel that here, NT social rules are enforced, as not to offend others.

I sort of feel there is an expectation here on WP that I should behave like a person with good social skills. I am not a person who has good natural social skills and empathy, I spent a lot of my earlier years in arguments with people. I came on here looking for people like me only to find aspies with far superior emotional regulation than me, and far better judgement at times. So I realised I still couldnt be myself here, and I have to keep up the act online too.

Perhaps my true personality is just a sort of scrappy, obnoxious one and should never be allowed out? I dont know. I have been wondering that lately.

The funny thing is, in my life the only people I feel I can be truly myself around is the dog or cat.

Since when is trying not to offend others a NT social rule? Especially those Aspies who have been bullied themselves should know it is not nice to intentionally offend others, as they don't want to be insulted themselves. (Indeed, they complain about their bullies for exactly this behavior - go figure.) While I DO realize many people on the spectrum have the tendency to insult others without meaning to (yes, I'm prone to that myself) I get the feeling some (not all!) of the people here are knowingly, intentionally making very rude statements about NTs in general and attacking the NT members of this site. Poor social skills are NOT an excuse for that! Just because someone is on the spectrum, it's not like any and all rudeness can be explained away with that.

I didnt even know social skills existed until 2003! I just thought people were behaving strangely all the time, getting angry when I was talking, and I didnt know why. I just thought I was having my opinion.

Nowadays I am better with people but I feel like a pressure cooker, a lot of the time, trying to repress my own opinions and feelings in order to present the "nice" opinion.

Im not sure what your situation is. Perhaps you took to social skill learning a lot better than I did. It still doesnt feel natural to me, even after 4 years of trying.

First, Eller, I am glad that you posted your feelings. I think people need to know that the bashing isn't just upsetting for any NT's that read here, but also to other AS, as well. I know that my husband, who is AS, can't deal with hate speech from anyone, anytime, about anything. It really rattles him. I think that, as with so many things, there are AS on both extremes, as in those who can't bear to see the fighting, and those who need to fight to release pent up feelings. What the later group needs to realize is that the former group DOES exist, and has a right to be considered.

CockneyRebel, interesting comments about the changes over time. I've belonged to a lot of internet forums, most of which were NT parenting forums, and it just seems like conflict is part of the life cycle. I wish I knew how to avoid it, but it almost seems inevitable. And, the larger and more known the group gets, the more real trolls it attracts. I have seen so many smaller groups completely implode at this point in their life cycle. Success can be its own worst enemy.

ZenMistress, the moderators are actually pretty careful about looking at possible explanations for odd behavior here, because of the social skill issues members may have, but in order to keep it a place that people are comfortable visiting, some rules do have to be enforced. It's tough to keep that balance, but we have to try, because we want all members - whether they be the upset by conflict types, or the angry vent types - to be able to benefit from this place as much as is practical.

As for that rock and a hard place those of you who are AS and single feel you find yourselves in ... I can see that. Perhaps it starts from the simple fact that the world is made for families to start with, and not those who are single. I was on my own 18 years between turning 18 and getting married, and I know how acutely aware of that I was at times. Add the complication of being AS and, well ... obviously, I cannot relate, but I think I can imagine to a small degree. I would have some suggestions for dealing at least with the single outcast part of it, that helped me, but I know how you all feel about advice from NT's, so we'll leave that conversation off the table. Just know that I accept the point.

Zen_mistress, I'm sort of surprised no-one bothered to talk to you about social skills and such. When I was diagnosed (which was fortunately very early) my parents made sure I got at least theoretical explanations of acceptable social behavior even though I still lack the intuitive understanding for it. They paid a lot of attention to it.
I usually get by with Kant's categorical imperative and the basic assumption that people usually are trying to be nice even if their behavior is completely incomprehensible at times. (Of course, in some cases this assumption is proven wrong, but that's actually quite rare, so I'm very uncomfortable with generalizing this to a whole group of people.)

By the way, what you're saying about having to please others all the time and the pressure of it is the exactly same thing that another friend said to me a while ago. And that friend is so very NOT aspie-ish. So I think it's not a problem that only applies to Aspies. Everyone has to struggle to express opinions, even strong ones, in a way that doesn't attack others personally. Society as a whole simply wouldn't work if nobody stopped to consider the feelings of others.

I sort of understand the position that moderators must find themselves in.. noone must like trying to manage chaotic arguments. I guess what I am saying in my post is that it is not only how I feel on WP, but in my whole life.. I dont really expect WP to be a place for me to vent, though initially when I joined 2 years ago I did, and soon learned it wasnt.




Yeah this is true too. I think it is up to many of us unmarried folk to make the most of our lives, whether it is through hobbies, or travel.... or spirituality.. or something. I do think the world needs to become a place where it is more interesting to be single... I have usually solved this by moving to big cities but I cant do that right now.

I generally suggest blogs for venting, not forums - more controlled environment, who has access, etc. Just a suggestion.


M.

I am still not diagnosed, my parents social skills are also poor, I probably will be diagnosed this year though. But I went through school and university and well into adult life before hearing of AS and social skills. I really didnt have a clue.

Thinking of others feelings never comes naturally to me. It is not that i want to hurt but I cant think of what I want to say and think of their feelings too without stress. The kind of personality I have to adopt in order to survive is so different to what I am like naturally that I feel like i am speaking in hieroglyphs.

I know non-asd people can feel a lot of social pressure too but it is a different type of social pressure. It is not the pressure of trying to squeeze a picture mind into a body-languagy, feelingy mould, it is the desire to be an individual that your friend is facing. A hard challenge for anybody but it is a bit different to what i have to do.

All this talk about "NT social rules" is a red herring.

This is not about "NT social rules" - it is about being consistent with your *own* moral code and belief in what is right and wrong. Those who engage in NT bashing most often complain about prejudice and bias. Hence according to their own personal moral code they believe that prejudice and bias is wrong.

Hence them engaging in prejudice and bias is inconsistent with their own personal moral code. Hence they are being hypocrites who can dish it out but can't take it.

What your social skills are or are not has nothing to do with this. My social skills are so "great" that I have never been on a date or have any real friends. This is about being true to *yourself* and acting in a way that allows you to respect *yourself*.

Why does it matter whether Willmark is on the spectrum? Does knowing on which side of the line he falls change the value of his opinion? You aren't necessarily suggesting this, but I think others here may feel that is is important. And, in my opinion, it is wrong to value that.


I think the burden of proof of this statement is on you. Why can't one human who has been bullied empathize with another who has been bullied? Suggesting otherwise is the height of elitism and arrogance.


No, what makes Aspies different is them meeting the official diagnostic criteria. There's a good chance that means they will experience the world differently, but not all people with AS will respond the same way, since people with AS are all very different with varying levels of sensitivity.
Therefore this statement:


does not hold true. More accurately, it should read, "Unless you are me, you can't possibly 100% empathize with me."

We are all here to share common experiences and help each other get through life. And we are all human beings. Why can't we share common experiences? Being told that "your experience doesn't count, go away" is simply uncalled for.

No it isnt.. non-ASd people have ways of socialising with each other which uses a lot of body language, guessing of other's feelings, observation of people... something which I can see a general trend in. Im not saying I think they behave identically but I see a general trend in how non-autistic brains are wired to deal with social stimuli. Quite different to mine.

And I would like to note, again, I never condone NT-bashing, but autistics are going to want to talk about the non-autistic people and what is happening in their lives with them.



Never worked for me, being true to myself just made me have unstable friendships, or none at all. I actually ended up having to adopt others moral codes, and scrap my own.

Because he made a post about being an NT, bullied at school, and I have seen many of his posts.. I kind of feel that his experience seems to be of a high-functioning aspie, being bullied at school. To me he doesnt seem entirely NT.. I never thought of valuing or devaluing his opinion, but I see a lot of confused high-functioning aspies on here. I myself dont fit the DSM, I will be going for a diagnosis soon but suspect I might get PDD-NOS myself. I dont really like the whole PDD-NOS thing, it just confuses people who should be able to call themselves aspies but cant because the DSM shuts them out.

People can call themselves whatever they like. I think classifications in general shut out people like me, who essentially don't really fit neatly into AS, NT, PDD-NOS, HFA, or any of those other classifications. Then again, does anyone really "neatly" fit? Who decides where the line is drawn, and what do they know about me?

I have traits which are very strongly associated with AS. I also have traits which aren't. Both types make up who I am, and I wouldn't change that for the world. And trying to figure out where I am "overall" is simply a mind exercise and has no bearing on my ultimate well-being.

Yes anyone can call themselves what they like. It was just that an argument was occurring about NTs being bullied vs AS's being bullied and I was just pointing something out I observed.

I think there is a category called Borderline Autistic Personality which actually does seem to include people who are NT but have some autistic traits. I think a good proportion of these people can go on to have an AS or autistic child, so it is a real phenomenon. My mother fits this description.

But anyway, it is another category, and a lot of people get sick of being lumped into categories. For that reason I would not get a diagnosis as I dont want to be in a category, but I need the accommodations. Strangely, I am looking forward to hearing what a professional will make of me though.

Theres actually more to being Aspie than the Diagnostic manual. Nobody knows for sure what autistic differences are, but studies do show the brain functions differently for autistic people and non autistic people. So because the brain functions differently, and because the brain absorbs and perceives data, yes, autistic people are obviously going to handle things and be different from non autistic people, otherwise it would never have made it in the APA book unless there was a need to put it there.

Empathy requires certain things for it to be accurate. One way empathy happens is through recognized body language...we don't have that online. In fact, many of the things anyone needs to feel empathy is not available online. So all we got to work from is reading each others experiences and consciously thinking about what the other person might be feeling based on what they say about themselves. You say you are right there in the middle of Aspie and NT, and you don't seem to understand the cats vs dog mentality that goes on here. I will never fully empathize with you on that, but I can try to sympathize with you. But for someone to claim they know what an Aspie and Autistic person is feeling without being themselves Aspie or autistic...that's just crazy talk. If they really do know that, then they need to quit "empathizing with the bullying," and move on to creating therapies for those on the Autistic spectrum because they have an insight that nobody else seems to have.

I never said, though, that people can't empathize with those on teh spectrum at all. I said they couldn't with 100% accuracy, so not to trust it like that. I'm sure many aspects of something like bullying can be empathized by anyone who was bullied, and even by those who have never been bullied. But to empathize to a level of judgement, that's not the most polite thing one can do. That's what was going on. People were passing judgement on others based on their own experiences expecting others to have the same reactions to those experiences. Since I never "suggested otherwise," I will ignore the comment about the arrogant elitist.

I've never said people's experiences don't count. They do. If they got something productive to say on the matter, I would love to hear it. But judging people in a hateful tone is destructive. I know I did it too. I judged the judgers in a hateful tone. Right here. That's why we are still debating it rather than learning from it. I do apologize for that.

Anyway, just because someone can't empathize 100% with the next guy doesn't mean their experiences are useless or they can't sympathize. But to tell someone, feeling this way about being bullied is wrong because I was bullied...now that's a different story.

That's exactly why when I see someone doing that and it bothers me at all, or i think about it and have the time, I call them out on it at that moment. I'm not saying you do this, but some people seem to complain about what others are doing to everyone but the person they are complaining about. It makes me wonder if they really want to make a change or if they are just complaining to complain.

Either way, I like how you worded that. I also like how you reminded me on how I, in the end, am accountable for my words and actions.