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OJani
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20 Apr 2012, 12:09 pm

Verdandi wrote:
OJani wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
OJani wrote:
Asperger's is not 'autism', technically speaking.


It's not the diagnosis of autism, but it's been presented as a form of autism since Lorna Wing started promoting it as a new diagnosis.

I wouldn't say that it's not autism or someone having it isn't autistic. I thought 'technically' means 'per the diagnostic criteria' (language issue?). The criteria (both DSM and ICD) does not mention 'autism' or 'autistic'. My point was, the same is true for PDD-NOS, which sometimes get unrecognized as a form of 'autism' (see Sweatleaf's post), for it 'only' being a PDD, not 'autism'.

We know that 'PDDs' and 'ASDs' are used interchangeably, and some know that Asperger himself referred to the disorder named after him 'Autistic Psychopathy'. But it's not in the criteria, for the time being. It seems it will be so in the DSM-V, though there will be no more 'Asperger's syndrome' in it.


The criteria by themselves, no, but if you read the full entry in the DSM-IV, it's clear that AS is presented as a form of autism in which speech is not strictly delayed.

For that matter, PDD-NOS mentions autism a handful of times in its very short text entry.

Thanks, I guess I will leave it at there.



btbnnyr
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20 Apr 2012, 12:30 pm

Sora wrote:
Conclusion of what the differences come down to:

- in detail, the autistic symptoms are coinciding, but children with the Asperger-type generally have a different level when it comes to developing personality and intellect/intelligence


I think that Asperger's autistic children showed more personality and intelligence because they had more communication instinct and abilities to show more personality and intelligence. After his initial paper, he probably picked the ones that showed more personality and intelligence as truly autistic children to study and ignored the ones who showed less personality and intelligence, those being the "infantile psychosis" children that he thought that Kanner was studying. A Kanner's autistic child who is non-communicative and cannot speak due to mouth motor problems and cannot write or even point due to hand motor problems is not going to show much personality and intelligence, but in modern times, once you teach the child to type, then you may see the personality and intelligence that the child was not able to show before learning to type. Communication abilities and development of these or barriers against these, e.g. motor problems, really eggsplain away a lot of the differences, IMO.



cyberdad
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20 Apr 2012, 7:06 pm

slasher666 wrote:
I was diagnosed with high-functioning autism when I was 3-and-a-half, but my psychiatrist diagnosed me with Asperger's when I was 15. Yesterday I did the second half of my assessment to see how high-functioning I was. Since I was diagnosed with autism when I was little, I will always have that diagnosis. I like to think of myself as having Asperger's because it's more specific and it shows how high-functioning I am, but I'm more likely to qualify for social services if I'm registered with the provincial government as having autism. I feel sorry for anyone who lost their diagnosis with their new assessment and won't qualify for services. Most people don't seem to realize that high-functioning doesn't mean low needs. I am very high-functioning but still need a lot of help with school work and certain life skills.


I think it's currently a question of economics. Your government and mine only have a limited funding in their kitty bag for funding early intervention and education programs. The current funding in Australia is largely geared toward "low functioning" kids. Whatever is left is then divided up to more higher functioning kids. Kids with higher functioning Aspergers get the least amount funding as they are deemed the least "in need".

Ironically the best results for funding are for kids on the borderline who benefit most from early intervention. From a purely economic point of view the more kids they can get from "dependent" on aides or parents to become "independent" will alleviate the so called "burden" on social services.



cyberdad
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20 Apr 2012, 7:21 pm

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
But I think you are simplifying these conditions into discrete separate categories when all evidence points to the fact that people can move their diagnosis from into the other. There is high likely hood the genetics behind the disorder is the same but the manifestations may represent multiple types (the current manifestations i.e. PDD, autism, Apergers, Retts etc) based on the way the genes are switched on or off in the individual when they are born and during their development.

I disagree that the genetics are the same. I think that there are probably a few common "autism genes," but I have a feeling that each subtype IS different genetically in some way. I just learned about alternative phenotype genetics in my bipolar textbook, and I really support this. I think that different phenotypes most likely have different genotypes overall, with some shared genetics to give major symptoms. This is why I'm such a proponent of studying AS vs. HFA. I want to see if these different phenotypes ARE genetically/neurologically different. While I agree that early intervention can change the phenotype of autism's severity, I think this is more due to the brain's natural plasticity more so than a dramatic change in gene function. Acquiring language seems to be much more a factor of plasticity than the product of different proteins being made or not.


You say each "subtype" of developmental disorders under the PDD umbrella is different genetically but then contradict yourself by stating the it's "more due to the brains natural plasticity" than dramatic change in the gene function?

Here's a little genetics 101 for you. Phenotypic plasticity is very common in the biological world. We know how to identify polymorphic manifestations controlled by variation in the expression of single genes or loci. It gets far more complex when you are dealing with the brain, not just because it's the most complex organ in the body but because it has the greatest number of networks to other organs via nueral feedback networks and blood vessel connections.

Neuropsychologists have barely scraped the surface in understanding how the brain exactly works, so not surprisingly the genetics of the brain is poorly understood. Add to this the dimension of developmental changes in the brain from utero and we have a lot to understand about gene-brain development interaction.

I am only saying this to you for your own education, avoid making categorical statements in your thesis dissertation that each (man made) discrete ASD category is "genetically" different.



Eloa
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21 Apr 2012, 6:14 pm

Today I talked with my psychologist about the DSMV.
She does not like it, because it will exclude people from getting help who really need help.
I asked her, if I would get re-assessed and she said I fit the criteria for autism in the new DSMV and she would not even need to do an assessment again (she is a clinical psychologist specialized in autism and extra qualified to do assessments for any disorder).
I wonder when I read here, that the spectrum of Bipolar Disorder is getting broader and the one for ASD more "narrow", is it because with Bipolar Disorder pharmaceutical concerns can earn money with prescription drugs and enlarging the spectrum contributes to it and with autism, as there is no remedy, but people need actually support, the spectrum gets more narrow?
Or am I just being distrusting?


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nessa238
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22 Apr 2012, 4:12 am

Eloa wrote:
Today I talked with my psychologist about the DSMV.
She does not like it, because it will exclude people from getting help who really need help.
I asked her, if I would get re-assessed and she said I fit the criteria for autism in the new DSMV and she would not even need to do an assessment again (she is a clinical psychologist specialized in autism and extra qualified to do assessments for any disorder).
I wonder when I read here, that the spectrum of Bipolar Disorder is getting broader and the one for ASD more "narrow", is it because with Bipolar Disorder pharmaceutical concerns can earn money with prescription drugs and enlarging the spectrum contributes to it and with autism, as there is no remedy, but people need actually support, the spectrum gets more narrow?
Or am I just being distrusting?


I think you're right. The DSM pathologises a lot of human behviour that is actually just normal and this is done so that drugs companies can market their products for all these new conditions as an alternatvie to developing new products. Create a load of new conditions that always need medicating and you've opened up a whole new market for your drug.

In my opinion one of the main reasons they're dispensing with the Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis in DSM-V is because they don't know what to do with us - we are very therapy-resistant in my opinion as we are usually more intelligent than the therapist and they can't make a profit out of us via by selling a specific medication to 'cure' us. Drugs don't work, as you say - we need support and understanding which they can't make a profit out of - hence we are of no interest to them as we need money spending on us for services so we are too much of a financial burden to society. It's a joke that having carved out Aspergers from Autism they now want to forget it even existed - it says it all about what the DSM is really all about ie MONEY!



Last edited by nessa238 on 22 Apr 2012, 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Verdandi
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22 Apr 2012, 6:07 am

They're dispensing with AS to fold the diagnosis into ASD. It has nothing to do with therapy or how smart we may be relative to therapists.



cyberdad
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22 Apr 2012, 8:12 pm

nessa238 wrote:
It's a joke that having carved out Aspergers from Autism they now want to forget it even existed - it says it all about what the DSM is really all about ie MONEY!


Actually DSMV is about correcting a past error driven by Lorna Wing that Aspergers was a special diagnosis and perpetuated by DSMIV in the 1990s. It still doesn't change who you are. People diagnosed with Aspergers in the past will be classified on the top scale of the ASD spectrum. Get used to it.

In polite conversation and in cyberspace I'm sure the label will continue to be used. As one WP poster amusingly put it, if you tell people you have Aspergers, at worst they think you are a little eccentric, if you say you have autism they automatically assume you are "ret*d".

The issue in DSMV is not about the perception of other people, its really about self concept in people currently walking around with an Apsergers label. In psychology there is body dissatisfaction, appearance dissatisfaction and now you have a new term...social labelling dissatisfaction.



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22 Apr 2012, 8:24 pm

I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


Here is what Wikipedia says:

Quote:
The next (fifth) edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), DSM-5, is currently in consultation, planning and preparation. It is due for publication in May 2013.[1] APA has a website about the development, including draft versions. APA.org is periodically listing several sections of DSM-V for review and discussion.[71] It includes several changes, including proposed deletion of the subtypes of schizophrenia.[72]

Former DSM psychiatrist Allen Frances has expressed concern regarding what he calls 'commercialism and heavy handed censorship' in the DSM-V process. He argues that psychiatric classification is too important to be left under the exclusive control of one professional organization.[73] Frances and others have published debates on what they see as the six most essential questions in psychiatric diagnosis - are they more like theoretical constructs or more like diseases; how to reach an agreed definition; whether the DSM-V should take a cautious or conservative approach; the role of practical rather than scientific considerations; the issue of use by clinicians or researchers; and whether an entirely different diagnostic system is required.[74]

In 2011, psychologist Brent Robbins co-authored a national letter for the Society for Humanistic Psychology that has brought thousands into the public debate about the DSM. Approximately 8,000 individuals and mental health professionals have signed a petition in support of the letter. Thirteen other American Psychological Association divisions have endorsed the petition.[75] In a recent article about the debate in the San Francisco Chronicle, Robbins notes that under the new guidelines, certain responses to grief could be labeled as pathological disorders, instead of being recognized as being normal human experiences.[76]



So lots of people are being screwed over.



Last edited by ShadesOfMe on 22 Apr 2012, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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22 Apr 2012, 8:25 pm

ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94



ShadesOfMe
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22 Apr 2012, 8:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94



Thank you Cyberdad. I wish there was a way to sticky this. I keep hearing people talking about this, and different sources are saying different things, so this is very helpful.



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22 Apr 2012, 8:33 pm

Okay, so it seems to be truly on the Autism spectrum you must meet the new criteria in sections A, B, and C, and D. it does not say how much of it must be met. D has only one criteria, so I'm assuming that means that if you don't meet that you are not on the spectrum.


I meet Section A, parts 2 and 3, unsure about part 1 now, but in the past yes.

I meet section B parts 2, 3, and 4, not sure about 1.

I meet section C.

I meet section D, although like with everyone day to day living and who I am changes daily.

I wonder what this means for me? I hope that these changes will not stop people from getting the help or benefits they need.



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22 Apr 2012, 9:02 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94


There's also this:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... px?rid=489

As I understand it, those of us who don't fit all the new criteria for ASD, but have issues with pragmatic language, may now fall under "Social Communication Disorder" instead.



cyberdad
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22 Apr 2012, 9:24 pm

scubasteve wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94


There's also this:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... px?rid=489

As I understand it, those of us who don't fit all the new criteria for ASD, but have issues with pragmatic language, may now fall under "Social Communication Disorder" instead.


So what criteria separates language imapired ASD from SCD? they seem awfully close??



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22 Apr 2012, 10:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:
scubasteve wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94


There's also this:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... px?rid=489

As I understand it, those of us who don't fit all the new criteria for ASD, but have issues with pragmatic language, may now fall under "Social Communication Disorder" instead.


So what criteria separates language imapired ASD from SCD? they seem awfully close??


I think mainly that part B of the ASD criteria (restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior/activities/interests) is not part of the SCD criteria.

So if you meet criteria A of ASD, but you don't have at least 2 items from criteria B, then you'd probably fall under SCD instead.



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22 Apr 2012, 10:49 pm

scubasteve wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
I am quite confused on this. I've heard bits and pieces, but I do not understand. Has someone already posted what the new criteria is?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=94


There's also this:

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... px?rid=489

As I understand it, those of us who don't fit all the new criteria for ASD, but have issues with pragmatic language, may now fall under "Social Communication Disorder" instead.


I feel like they are making new disorders, and discounting the old ones. I sincerely hope those who DX follow the old guidelines. It sounds like this whole social communication disorder is just another part of having an ASD.

and for that matter, are they still changing the name of Asperger's to Autism spectrum disorder/ incasing the whole of the spectrum under that title? Now that I understnd whats going on, I'm even more displeased.