Picking Up Social Situations Intuitively....

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yeah, I agree about the serious dangers in not playing but some people just don't have the ability or very limited ability to play the game. not everything can be taught and some of us can only 'learn' this stuff to a limited level. obviously, in that case people have to resort to other methods such as reclusion.

It's not talking so much about avoiding pecking orders where people's place is earned. I'm talking about dysfunctional hierarchies where there are idiots who think they're entitled to a higher place on the pecking order just because they are bullies with narcissistic personalities. Such individuals inspire intense HATRED in me. I either avoid them or they might be in physical danger from me.

yeah, what we are discussion is essentially NT bully systems. It's good if you can stay out of the line of fire of that, but there are many sound reasons to reject what those systems have to offer. Being of a religious persuasion, the notion of the 'holy fool' is outside of the caste/bully system, it's not for everyone, but I don't think we can all learn to adapt and in any case, society needs it's 'whistleblowers' just as much as it needs is caste/bully system.

marshall, you're too brilliant an observer of human behavior to stay at that level of analysis. People bully you, among other reasons, BECAUSE they're higher than you in the PO, not because they were born bullies and don't know any better. Rest assured they don't bully those higher than them in the PO. They're submissive sheep with them. The more of a bully someone is to those below them, the faster they are at switching to submissive sheep with those higher than them. This is why it's always said that "bullies are the biggest cowards".

(off-topic: did you see that you were nominated for an Autscar?)

Maybe that's why I go to Jerusalem obsessively every weekend - to remind myself not to end up the same way, as a holy fool.

If I find myself in a toxic environment, I feel compelled to try to change it, or else leave; some environments are less toxic than others.

Submitting completely to the pecking order is similar to accepting life as a slave. There are many examples of people in history, whether actual slaves, non-conformists, or artists who refused to accept this, often at any cost. It really depends on the individual and their particular circumstances (e.g., having children, their field of work), and the price (e.g., isolation, poverty, death) whether they choose to accept it.

ha, yeah, sometimes it chooses you though.

I think alba is just trying to come up with practical solutions for everyday situations aspies experience, obviously there are any number of philosophical and religious objections to accepting or acquiescing to the whole damn thing. It's a very worthwhile thing to have some practical techniques to get thru it alive.

Wow, guys, this whole "pecking order" concept is quite new to me...well, ok, I knew it existed to some extent, but not to this degree. Thinking about all this stuff just makes my head spin! I used to read articles on biology about how animals engage in some kind of a pecking order, and sometimes the writers would compare humans to animals, using examples. I used to wonder, why are they comparing us to animals? We´re not like that. I thought they were making false deductions about human behavior, and I felt depressed to even think about it. But I guess it´s not false after all. I have learned about so many new concepts in regards to human social behavior within the last year, since I discovered AS and started studying social systems. Needless to say, due to my cluelessness ( ), I never really played any pecking order game, though I did always respect the people who hired me at work- (or others who were professionally above me at any given time, people I could learn from, etc.) This whole pecking order idea might explain why I had quite a few "mysterious" difficult interactions with people in the past. Since I always try to be polite, treat people with kindness and tend to be humble, I always thought I would be a non-threatening person. However, this hasn´t been the case I guess. I have experienced a lot of jealousy and backstabbing in my life. Even my parents say it´s amazing how many people have tried intrigues against me. I was depressed on many an occasion because I thought someone was my friend, but they turned out not to be.

Within the last 6 months, there were 2 different social intrigues going on around me. In typical fashion, I was unaware of what was going on in both occasions until someone told me; seriously, these things just seem to form around me without my even knowing! On both occasions, it looks like I managed to find a strategy to deal with the situations without playing their game and without losing my integrity. Maybe that was just luck, and maybe that doesn´t work every time...but I wonder if there´s a way to "beat them at their own game"? At least sometimes? If we can find ways to do this, we can do a world of good for Aspies.

It's not analysis I was expressing, it was pure disgust and anger. I was letting my emotions get to me. Blah, I just deleted my old post where I got overly emotional. Thanks for not quoting it. I'm in a bad mood. I need to stay away from this kind of topic.

I'll just say that I agree with you that they do it because they think they're higher up but that doesn't mean I can't think they're pond scum for being that way.

Actually, sometimes I wonder....maybe I am a "holy fool"!

However, this may not be all bad. This is a spiritual role, and there is power in it. A holy fool is someone who refuses to obey the system, but is able to float through the system. Although a "fool" in the eyes of society- which is just a series of false social constructs anyway, or illusion- the fool never loses his or her integrity. The holy fool transcends, and moves through, the system. In older times, the holy fool was highly respected. One can allow oneself to be "crucified", so to speak, but still have more real (spiritual) power than the ones who are doing the crucifying. Any act of hate or disrespect has fear as the basis; therefore, it is not coming from a spiritual place. So in this case, maybe I would rather be the fool. Maybe it is meant for me to take this role...

marshall, thanks for reassuring me. I was genuinely worried about you. I'm glad you deleted that post. You have a right to feel and express what you did and the way you did it, but sometimes people don't realize it's a passing emotion and they can misinterpret or get worried for you.

Ever since I discovered the PO and that it rules and overrules everything else in interaction among humans, I lost my love for people, which used to be very big. I have no words to even begin describing how much I despise the PO and the fact that there's no escaping it. It's why I decided to isolate myself from society (except for work, which I can't afford to leave).

Postperson, I had a couple years when I was very afraid thinking that God might have chosen me for the role of holy fool like my ancestor. That was when I started traveling to Jerusalem obsessively and looking for the REAL places where Yehoshua (aka Jesus) had been (not the touristy places, but the real ones). Now I'm glad because I feel that I haven't been chosen, that I can at least phony my way at work enough to last a couple years in it. But I still believe that I may be a descendent of Yehoshua (which wouldn't be hard, given that we come from the same extended family) and that we both love the Galilee, Jerusalem, and to preach But no, I'm not a chosen one, fortunately.

^ Interesting post. Another thing to consider:

Submitting completely to a pecking order often means being willing to never challenge bullying, (or mobbing in the workplace). If someone really intends to remain safe, they must never stand up to the bullying of a colleague--they'll be the next target--or abstain from other questionable practises. Most people will only look out for themselves. This is part of the price of fitting in.

outlier, that's a very good example. That's what I've been trying to say all along - that you can't escape. You either play it, or you're destroyed by it. Indeed, if you don't play it and therefore speak up against abuse of a colleague, you'll be next.

There's a wonderful book that shows how Van Gogh was finally destroyed by trying to stay away from the pecking order. I forgot the author, but he wrote a wonderful biography of Van Gogh. There's a most powerful scene where Van Gogh decides to play the pecking order because he realizes he won't survive otherwise. So he goes to this big master and tries to pretend to be submissive to him. He fails miserably at acting submissively and has a meltdown, smashing the foot he was sculpting into pieces. He retreats to the south of France and decides to stay away from the pecking order. He starts his downfall there and then. This is why the famous song about Van Gogh says: "This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you."

yes, my attempts at ingratiating myself with alphas or leaders or even just 'members' of the PO are so poor as to actually aggravate the problem and lead to further punishment and ostracism. i don't think have the 'acting' skills necessary.

I'm a very good actress when I feel that I absolutely must be. I'm very convincing. It takes up huge amounts of energy to have to act at work all day, but even NTs complain they have to. This is the main reason people hate work and Mondays.

I've got acting ability as far as reading a script goes, I had to do a bit of it at uni (just dry reading sitting at a desk) and people would go wow, you should act! sort of thing, but for me it simply does not translate into acting ability in real life situations. It may be a matter of not seeing the 'script' happening IRL, I think people who are better at it than me can see the situations we are talking about as a type of 'script' and respond with the required 'performance' or role.