Social Skills Training for Adults

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I took exception to this which I found very dismissive and supercilious:

I'm not going to quote but will respond in order to the above (because I took my 3rd dose of Celexa and can't manage the multiple quote atm):

The term 'spaced out' is a matter of perspective. For people who like to get away from their own head for awhile, it's positive. For those that HATE being robbed of their mental capacity, it's bad. You may be the former, kfisherx the latter. Read in context, she mentioned being affected at work and was distressed at being late to a meeting for the first time in her life - it sounded like a negative experience for her.

You are not 'lucky' to have side effects. Yes, Celexa's known side effects suck badly. No argument there. No one is lucky to have them. Having off label reactions that your doctor can't anticipate - that is bad. Every prescription you take is a potential timebomb because you can't count on the label to tell you want to expect all the time. Not having that uncertainty is lucky, as I feel myself unlucky to possess this trait. Please don't try to twist that statement into something it is not. No one is lucky to suffer from Celexa's side effects.

I can see where you may have taken offense but I suspect that is just the nature of kfisherx's sense of humor. She is a newly dxed Aspie herself. She was poking fun at herself in that statement as well as you. You did contend that she couldn't possibly be feeling the affects of her SSRI after a single dose mainly because you didn't. She provided text to back up the claim that they do start 'working' immediately but that they need time to build up to an effective level. She may be attributing the side effects she is experiencing to the beginnings of SSRI effect. And this is something I agree with. I do not know if all side effects can be attributed to this but in my case, the instant 'brain fog' literally feels like my brain fighting against a foreign invader. My brain doesn't want to change and its fighting back. I assume this is where the nausea kicks in for some people because this 'brain fog' eventually ends up including some vicious nausea after about a week. All that suggests is that some people may be more sensitive to the effects of changing brain chemistry than others. You told her she was wrong because you didn't experience that effect. She chose to address it with sarcastic humor as a defense. I'm merely suggesting that this entire conversation could have been approached in a non combative manner quite easily.

She may be new to SSRI's but I'm a veteran. I'm merely here to corroberate. There are those of us that have off label reactions and that is a possible autistic trait. Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

We seem to be marching up the hill and back down again.

I have never once claimed that my experience is the only one possible. kfisherx has put those words into my mouth.
For the last time, I merely contend that the beneficial effects are supposed to take at least two weeks to kick in. That is what my doctor has said and that is what my search on the internet has indicated. I don't doubt other reactions are possible; I had nausea myself after a few days. It was my impression that kfisherx considered the "spaced out" feeling that of the drug getting to work. It was her that initiated the combative approach that got my back up.

I am misinterpeting this statement then:



Could you clarify what you meant by this? I am under the impression that you meant that the effects kfisherx experienced weren't possible because nausea was the official 'first' effect. By effect I am assume that both you and she are talking about side effect.

I meant that I didn't think that the drug was doing what it was prescribed for. Are we all clear now? I only listed nausea, but it could have been any other unintended side effect.

I think there was a huge disconnect there. Now I get it. The inclusion of 'other unintended side effects' was really evident in your posts. Thank you for the clarification.

kfisherx hasn't experienced it yet but there are many of us that have had our symptoms and conditions discounted by doctors. Without that above clarification it sounded like more of the same. Invalidating someone's personal experience tends to get the hackles up. I hope you can understand that position.

It was you who got your "panties in a bunch" first with your supercilious comment. I actually didn't remove the emoticon on purpose, merely thought it was redundant as I had taken it as a smirk. You are guilty of exactly the same behaviour because you are now projecting your own ideas and thoughts onto myself. Additionally you are guilty of putting words into my mouth.

I believe I said the drug doesn't "work" that quickly, by which I meant (and I'm getting bored of repeating myself) that it wasn't producing the intended effects yet.

I do have my own doctor as well you know. I merely noticed that you have a different way of doing things in the USA. Ones which I personally wouldn't be comfortable with, but thats an argument for another day.




Well you're not going to like the apathy if you get it. It is the killer.



Again you make unfounded assumptions. My idea of it being considered a benefit was a reasonable guess.



Take your ball and go home then. I'll continue to post here as long as it pleases me thanks. It is not up to you to assume "value". This isn't your little personal corner.

Whenever you feel up to apologising for your rude behaviour I'll be ready to listen.

Yes I've been there too. Not only doctors but friends and family too.

Likewise I felt my own opinion was being treated with contempt and sneering derision; like some ignorant tool who doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Not only that but I have continually been misrepresented, and those untruths perpetuated by others.

This is a sensitive topic for me, as someone who has ended up reluctantly on medication after attempting to take my own life. I did not like to see my personal experiences treated as a source of humour.

This whole affair has obviously been a misunderstanding from start to finish.

Sometimes it just takes some digging to get to the heart of the matter - thanks for sticking it out. I now understand both kfishersx's frustration and yours. My apologies for getting my hackles up where there was no intention on your part. No hard feelings?

Oh sorry, that one doesn't seem to get used much these days. It's "your mileage may vary," as in the disclaimer at the end of car ads where the show the mileage and say/show that the actual value may not be identical to that.

Yes it has apparently. I am not able to abstract very much of anything so if I go off completely on some tangent it is likely that it has happened due to my inability to abstract from something that is said. I would appreciate it if anyone responding to this thread would give me that benefit of doubt and help me out if I am seeming to act out. The facts are that I am not a person to act out. Either here or in real life. Mostly I will have smiles and humour and my humour in this portion of this thread was not directed at anyone's misfortune or past (since I do not know of anyone's past) but at myself. As a newly aware Aspie, I am constantly amazed right now at how predictable I am. Almost "textbook"...

It is T-4 now until next session so moving thead to first page so I can find it after the session. I try to do a write up within a few hours of a session to capture everything with as much detail as possible. I will start with a quick precursor RE med management since that seems to have become a part of this big picture.

I am still on 1/4 a dose. I went to 1/2 but got spaced out again so apparently not ready. I feel mostly okay on this 1/4 dose but am very dull. Just ratcheted down from my normal self. I don't know if I like it or not. At football practice I get dizzy when I am thrown down or get hit. The world sort of floats for awhile. I also have a bit of a hard time being motivated to workout. (part of the "dull" affect) On the good side, I am hyper-focused at work in my work right now (less distracted lately) and had no anxiety or reaction when I saw a man suffering stroke like symptoms in front of me this week. For those who do not know, I witnessed my Father die from a stroke this past summer. This event triggered much anxiety and autistic symptoms in me. Last week I responded to an emergency call at work (I am volunteer ERT) and a man was having brain trauma that resembled stroke. Ambulance, crashing, etc... The works. The event made me a bit ill to the stomach and I feared the reactions but none came. I stayed completely okay despite my awareness of the event and the constant flashbacks of my Father's death this past week. By "okay" I am meaning that my sensory issues were not made worse. In fact my sensory issues are definitely better right now overall than they have been since my Father's death. Medicine or coincidence/placebo? I don't know... just stating how things are.

I am actually considering quitting them as I really do not like the spaced out/dull overall feeling that I have. It doesn't feel like "me" anymore. I will talk with my guy about this as an opener since he has the task of "checking in" with me about this now.

Social Lies, Exit Strategies and Scripts (oh my!):

Before I could get any sort of word in RE meds he started to talk to me about social lying. I think he noted my amusement at his use of this word and of his suggestion/recommendation of it. So I confirmed for him that it did surprise me that a professional might not only admit to doing that to his Mother but that he would recommend it to me as a "best known method" knowing that my goal was to be more socially correct/polite. He again stressed that it was not only common but very acceptable to use this tactic in small talk and for me specifically he said it was a great way to developed "exit strategies " from my small talk scenarios. I had to LOL at the fact that he saw the need for an exit strategy. I mean whatever was wrong with my melt down or my abrupt STFU strategies?

At this point I told him about the kid at the grocery store in my town and how I was able to use the question strategies immediately following our last session with him. I took the time to tell him how the conversation went and the history between this person and myself. The net is that I am generally a very shut down or "rude" person I think to most people who do not know me. The Doctor tested the output of my experiment by asking me to relay the kid's responses. I told him everything I knew about him and also made sure the Doctor knew that I had no clue why that information was important and that it meant nothing to me. He asked me what I told the kid about me during that exchange. I did not. I only asked the kid questions as that was what I was working on. He said, "Interesting" at that point so I shared with the Doctor that I could tell the kid was very happy about the fact that I had FINALLY come out of my normal "shell" to speak to him at all and that he seemed quite happy to talk about himself.

So that was my one and only success from last week and once I had done that, I needed to shut the lid on all of it for the rest of the week as that effort sort of wore me out. I even made sure to avoid going in that store for the rest of the week just in case that kid was in there so I did not have to continue with the "work" of conversing. Again the Dr piped up with, "Interesting" but did not say anything else. LOL! Today I am interesting. My point in telling him that I closed the lid is to share with him that I understand now how very, very hard this is for me to do. It really does tax me and I am starting to understand the depths of that as we go through this work together. I also suggested that I pondered a lot this week on whether this is a reasonable thing for me to be doing this work at all. I mean so what if I can do small talk if I turn around and insult somebody's career (as I did to this Dr last week) because my filters are off from having to focus so hard on small talk…. I suggested that it is perhaps the case that I really am incorrigible. He pointed out to me the areas where I have had success so far including conversing with my Mother and with this kid and also in all my new awareness about other people/connections, etc... He said those things all point to the fact that I am malleable to some degree. I agreed that as long as I was learning even a little it is better than sitting still. So onward and forward.

We never did play the game today. Instead he wanted to understand what all my current avoidance tactics were in social situations. I listed those already in here so it was easy for me to go over them with him. I then told him about how I even avoid chatting in group situations and that I have this brilliant (to me) strategy to always insert myself in the middle of the crowd which allows me to say almost nothing. So if there is a long table (for example) I will sit in the middle of that table and if someone looks like they are going to engage me in conversation from one side I can turn my head and pretend I am participating in the conversation on the other side of the table. It makes me the "center" of the party yet completely away from responsibility of talking to anyone. He seemed to enjoy listening to that one but agreed that many of my other tactics might be "rude". I allowed this and also stated that as my understanding of this "emotion" thing and the "connectedness" with respect to small talk and communication deepens that those tactics will probably be less and less okay with me.

He said that if I had safe exit strategies from small talk sorts of situations that being in the situation would probably feel better and with that he started to list examples of social lies that one uses to get out of a conversation. I had to giggle at that point because the most popular social lie ever came to mind at that time. And I said then, "So… sorta like when a woman asks if this dress makes her ass look fat"… Is that what you mean? He too had to laugh and then I told him that I don't ever tend to lie about that sort of thing and objected to lying in general unless it was something really important and something well orchestrated. He demonstrated how he can take a fairly neutral position to a question like that by saying it is "fine" and then use body Language to say it isn't all that great. He gave me two specific body Language demonstrations then and I could not really see it but I know that other people can. I again said I don't think that I am okay with this social lying thing. It was then that he launched into the most interesting thing and my new learning as well as "homework" for the week. He reached into his magic desk drawer and pulled out this sheet of paper and handed it to me to read as he explained. On this sheet of paper was a pyramid of blocks from largest to smallest and in each block was a definition of a "level" of friend. I swear he had 7 or so levels of 'friends" on this paper. I started to laugh as soon as I read it. I guess I never really thought about my "friends" in levels. Normally I have the people that I call really "close" and those people I will actually make time for on a regular basis. (though they generally still have to initiate) and then there is everyone else. Now I had this level system presented to me so I'll have to now categorize all my friends. LOL!

Of course there was MUCH discussion about how the levels worked and why he used this pyramid instead of a Venn diagram since many of the layers seemed to have overlap. He suggested that I should spend time this week to draw it the way I see it. And thus I received some homework. The POINT of him bringing out this paper wasn't for me to pick it apart but rather for him to stress that for people in my "close friend" level, I should never really have to social lie to so much. But for people in the upper levels (the ones I am not really close to) they are the ones that I should do social lies with more since social lying is "safer. Huh??? Lying is safer now. The things you learn in a shrink's office. So now I have, scripts to use for small talk, social lie scripts and rules for when to deploy the lies in order to give me exit strategies that are better then blowing up or telling people that I am done.

Finally he wanted to know a bit about my avoiding the store with that kid and so he asked me if it was at all interesting to me to go back to the store and find out more information. I did my smart ass, "Let me think on that.." (then a split second later) "No". Remark. Seriously that is completely random and useless information to me. He then countered with thinking of it like I was "mentoring" him the way I mentor other people in my life. You know because he is minoring in computer science and perhaps it would be interesting for me to reflect back on when I was a junior engineering student and get some of his perspectives. I stopped him and said, "Look Doc…" "I think you are seriously underestimating how very differently our mind works." I went on to say that I believe it true that he and other earthlings might get some "charge" out of a 5 min conversation but it doesn't mean that I "get" it. There is a HUGE gap between him telling and me getting. I stressed that it is impossible for me to understand how he might say that he feels like he knows me a little better because I shared what food I liked. That doesn't even begin to tell anyone anything about me. Heck even after all these weeks he still doesn't know anything about me. Then I told him that if I wanted to mentor someone, then I would "adopt" them into my life and do it properly. I don't have any interest in learning about people outside of that. I then looked at him sideways and asked him if he wanted to reconsider the sociopath label. I don't remember that he laughed at that.

Somehow it was already an hour and we didn't play the game. I was fine with that…

Another week "in the books".

I do understand the need for social lies, and I even do it myself sometimes. I think that I have a good understanding of when to do it, but this just seems bizarre and incomprehensible to me. If you want to give a neutral answer, why not just give a neutral answer? Why lie, and use body language to undo your lie? I guess that your doctor is right, and this is what would be considered normal behavior, but, to be honest, it seems neurotic and indecisive to me.

I know, right? The whole time he is doing this and showing me the body Langugage, I am sitting there thinking to myself about the irony that I am the one with the label.

I have just had one of those sudden flashes of understanding.

Is this why when I tell a lie (such as not wanting to attend some social occasion or other) people do not seem to believe me and continually persist in trying to get me involved? Do NT's signal with body language that, "yes, this is indeed a lie now don't ask again!". Am I trying to lie too well and not actually signalling properly that I do not wish to participate?

I don't see the point in answering a question in such an indirect manner... But then again, there are many things that I just don't "get".

I find social lies to be more than a little strange too. But when I don't use them, I find that everyone gets mad at me. Just the other day, I was talking with my mom and I was responding to everything she said naturally and honestly (so I thought)... and later that day, I got an e-mail from her that she didn't appreciate my sarcastic and snide comments.

"What?! "

It totally took me by surprise. To me, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or difficult. I was just trying to express myself. No wonder talking to people feels so much like walking on egg shells. People claim that honesty is the best policy, but they lie all the time, even to themselves! What a strange group of people those "socials" are...

Hmm... that could be a possibility. I generally assume that people tell the truth all the time, so if someone tells me that they can't come to xyz event, I just take it at face value. If they say that they don't want to go, they don't want to go. But then again, I'm probably not the right person to ask.

Speaking from my experience, I know sometimes people get pushy when someone offers up resistance because it's the "polite" thing to do and also because they assume that you really DO want to go (how could anyone NOT want to go to a party? *sarcasm* ) and that you just need to be convinced. Maybe you could use some sort of gesture to signal that you are or aren't lying.

Ugh, all of this is very confusing, though!