Why do NTs turn nasty ...

Post Reply New Topic

Of course people sin and do wrong. What drove me to write I did was not the fact that people did wrong, but the fact that people were trying to deny it using the excuse of X. There are some justifications that do make sense. For example stabbing someone because they are trying to kill you. However, trying to use a hurt X did to you in the past to justify why you are hurting a completely unrelated Y is simply trying to squirm out of responsibility. Not only is giving a free pass to the hurter, that doing a second wrong to the victim, but it's not going to give any incentive to the hurter to change their situation because they got away with it (and may be even have people telling them it was right or "nothing serious"), and the person that is going to be hurt by that most is the hurter. So it is also unfair to the person doing the hurting in the long run. Sympathize yes, excuse no.

Also, I do sympathize with the people due to the fact of having been place in a similar situation in the past where I had to choose between hatred and letting go. The logical arguments I talked about here helped me and so I thought that as people here are Aspies who generally like logic it might help people here too. Also, I was replying to arguments raised here and trying to counter them. For example an argument was raised that the anger was because of low self-esteem. Hence my response that engaging in these sort of activities is not exactly going to help that self-esteem. Some of the other arguments were "conversations" I had with myself a while back. I will honestly say that all those "logical arguments" are things I went through with myself and made me feel a whole lot better because they helped me work through the emotional turmoil in my mind. When those thoughts came to me, I was so happy. OK, I think I've reached the point where I have to admit, that my attempts at doing a pep talk have failed miserably and what worked for me does not appear to actually work for anyone else.

If what they were doing is something which only affects themselves, they yes, it is not my place to make judgment on them. If they want to dance naked, tattoo their entire body, not get a steady job and travel the world, sleep with a different guy every night hey it's their life. If it is dangerous I would try to (gently) persuade them but in the end it is their life. Have fun and get me some souvenirs. But your freedom to do what you want ends when your fist (physical or verbal) meets someone else's face, especially when you do it deliberately and they did nothing to you. I make no apologizes for being judgmental about that. Somehow, I think your father meant the first thing (don't stick your nose into other people's business). Somehow I don't think he meant that if you found your sister say screaming racist profanities at someone you shouldn't judge her and stop her. Well, if he did mean that, I'd be quite worried. Also, given the description of your family dynamics, if he didn't tell off your sister when she tattled on you, he was probably playing favorites. I would like to think that people here are not playing favorites i.e. it's less "serious" because the hurters are Aspies and the NTs are the victims.

Last edited by AnnieK on 27 Jul 2009, 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

To be quite honest I am not sure where I fit in the scheme of things. Where does the AS spectrum end, and the NT spectrum start, or do they overlap each other. I also have attributes that some folks here would identify as NT spectrum. Also I know I posted somewhere on the forum that when someone is complaining about the behavior of another person, my automatic response is to try to mentally sit in the accused person's seat and attempt to justify their actions. I can take offense when an NT attacks an Aspie, and when an Aspie attacks an NT, because I have attributes of both.

But to be honest, what happened here is my feelings got hurt. I am so darned emotionally sensitive, and that coupled with a tendency to intermittently misinterpret people's intended meaning, I can spend a lot of time recovering wounded feelings from injuries caused by meaning that was never intended to be communicated by the speaker or writer. In my mind, Tantybi's post got interpreted to "Just because you experienced a little bullying, don't assume your empathy is accurate. Since you're not an Aspie you can't know how we feel, so please keep your snooty nose out of our affairs." That's probably not exactly what she meant. Please accept my apology for blowing up in your face.


Your primary function is an extroverted function. Granted it's extroverted intuition, which I also extrovert, but it's not my primary function. I speculate that extroverted connections are much more important to you than they are to me. My primary function is introverted feeling. All my life, until recently, I have been a very intense introvert; very recluse. For people who are INFP, acceptance is huge, and feeling rejected can be intensely painful. I am not sure why this is, but I am no exception. Criticism, to folks who are INFP tends to feel like the opposite of acceptance, so it gets interpreted as additional evidence that one is not accepted. Someone else on this thread already said it. Bullying is simply another word for rejection. This in my opinion is why having trouble making friends was more hurtful to you than being bullied, and why the inverse was the case for me.

I have visited ENFP forums too. You do remind me of the folks that I got to know there. OF course I also encountered a lot of INFP bashing there. You have as much right to be your true self as I do. You have my permission to be your true self around me too.

LOL at the souvenirs.

I see what you are saying, but your argument about the lying was a good one, but you left out some options. I just don't want people excuse their rudeness in the name of their morality in the same way you don't want it seen excused because they are hurt. I'm not saying you were rude, in fact I think you were one I thought wasn't rude (at least your recent posts, I forget who was who in earlier posts), but some people on here have been and justifying it with the principle of what they stand for, and since only a portion of my posts are being read by some of the people I'm trying to reach, I keep finding any opportunity to repeat myself.

I am also very pro-accountability, and that's all it seems you are really trying to do.

I was pretty close to my father, and that's why he was harder on me than my sister. He wanted me to take care of her, not try to get her in trouble. LIke he'd rather me handle the situation to where nobody had to run and tell him something happened. I'm glad he was that way, because now he's not around to have my back when my sister wrongs me, and my mom favored my sister, which a lot of that was my Aspergers in the way I behaved and what my parents got to see and know (my sister really manipulated my mother well). But now my mom sees whats up better, so things are getting better. Anyway, i think that's a fabulous lesson for all people. You know you will come across hate when there are no moderators, or police or someone enforcing the rules against it. There's nothing wrong with learning how to reach and inspire someone to love when they are headstrong otherwise. It's not only a great skill to have, but some people might perceive it as a superpower. But you can't ever inspire love with more hatred, and that's what it seems like some people are trying to do (not you).

I am not sure I totally agree with you. Perhaps its more between those who have been able, and those who have not.

This is something I spend a great deal of effort making sure I accomplish. I seem to be very gifted at shredding peoples feelings when I am not trying to express things with their feelings in mind. But I hurt for people. When I hurt their feelings it hurts mine too. I also always have to proof read my posts because I am so bad about leaving out words, or putting in the wrong version of a word, like since when I mean sense, and word transpositions etc. But I know how getting your feelings hurt feels, so I avoid causing that in others whenever I can.

Oh, NT's don't always word their posts carefully, either. While this forum is more in-your-face at the surface, I don't really think its membership, overall, is any less careful about trying not to hurt other people's feelings. It comes down, most likely, to the same thing you see in mostly NT forums: some people care enough to try not to be hurtful, and some people don't care if they are hurtful and, so, don't try to avoid it. The internet is a whole other animal than real life situations, with its own set of ettiquette. Without there being any non-verbal cues to look for, I think AS are at far less of a disadvantage here than in the real world. No one is expecting that everyone get the wording right every time; you look for intent. When the hatred is real, you can read it; its almost tangible. The question isn't, then, about not knowing social rules, but about the right to vent v. trying to play nice and not post the hate. If someone has posted in a way that does not reflect their true feelings, that will usually come out eventually, and things are forgiven.

So many replies... where can I start?

~
Tantybi, I am not worried about her post. I wasnt sure why she was asking me to not tell her how to feel, but I wasnt overly concerned about it. She probably responded to me because I wrote that I didnt see the post in question as such a huge issue, to me it seemed like an angry rant from an unhappy person, though sadly it is directed at people who could be hurt by it.

~
Willmark, Being an INFP makes you a dominant Feeler. I dont know why, but I have read it does. People who have feeling as their primary function really hate being criticised. I am not hugely concerned by being criticised but I hate being misjudged and misunderstood.. perhaps that is my thing.

Yes, being an ENFP does make me a sociable person. That is why it has been hard for me in some specific ways to have been born an aspie. It is very hard to have an instinct to try and make friends with people, but also have a blunt, questioning, argumentative personality... I guess for that reason I have always wished I was instead an NT.
I can see why being an INFP would mean you would be careful and sensitive with your postings, anyway.

~
DW_A_Mom, I agree with you that online boards can even the playing field between ASD and NT. Some NTs go hog wild online because for the first time in their lives, they can say what they think and be anonymous. It can lead to bad behaviour, though most choose to keep their ethics.

I think the issues can be different for aspies though. Its true that at times aspies can write stuff that hurt others, intentionally, but many of us still have problems with expressive language. I remember a time where I would talk, or write, and have no idea of the emotional impact of my words.

Verbal language is loaded with millions of emotional associations. It makes it easier if body language and eye contact has been taken out of the picture, but it still can be hard. I find this board reasonably comfortable, because it is an ASD board, and because I am older now, but when I was about 24-25 I used to get run off boards because I wasnt aware of the impact of what i was saying.

I think that if anything AS people would have an easier time in message board format because they are already used to not having facial expression recognition. I am hyper sensitive to people's expressions and tones "IRL" so online I find it is harder for me to tell if someone is joking, or if being blunt is just the way they are vs trying to be ugly.

But I also think that a lot of the problems that the AS people here have had with NT people are probably because those people are total jerks, and not because they are NT. I try to watch how I phrase my posts here both because I prefer to be a nice person, and because in all honesty I see myself as more of a Visitor than a Member here. I have traveled to a "Galaxy Far Far Away" to learn a completely foreign language so that my child and I can work together instead of against each other. Communication problems work both ways, it is stressful and tiring on both ends.

Again. I think showing people that their prejudices don't match reality is better than yelling "hate speech" and slapping them on the wrist multiple times. It doesn't involve coddling or saying "it's okay, I sympathize with your anger" as you seem to imply. A neutral nonjudgmental argument would suffice.

Merely telling someone they're bad for feeling the way they do isn't going to change their perception of reality. Aspies in particular want to be shown the truth. Having to endure additional judgments when they already feel like they've been wronged by so many people in their past doesn't give them any hope. Seeing valid reasons why their hate isn't justified would give hope.

I honestly think that I am more of an NT than ASD, but some folks here think I am more ASD than I realize. I've encountered this before. When I visited an INTJ forum several folks there thought I had my type wrong, because I struck them as being far too logical to be an INFP. And INFJ online friends have accused me of writing in a different voice when I communicated with people of different types. I don't know.

Either way, it's been nice meeting you.

I think you are right about this, it likely makes NTs feel very uncomfortable to suddenly have a major part of their communication removed. Still, verbal communication for me, anyway, is still incredibly hard work in writing even. I can write an essay, or an article ok, because I am just reporting, but when it comes to interaction in writing with emotional beings, the hard work really comes in for me. It is sort of like getting out an algebra textbook, and calculator out and trying to crack the many foreign formulas that are being thrown at me.

Thanks. Anyway, you could be between types, there are some people who sort of go between FP and TJ depending where they are.

This thread is amazing. A masterpiece of communication. And whoever is moderating -- Mak and/or DW(?) -- deserves a sainthood just based on sheer volume if nothing else! I am humbled and I feel grateful that I have been a small part of something so good. The ups, the downs, the raging and the reconciling. And everyone taking so much time and effort to make their perspective clearer. I've read every post from beginning to end -- and it's epic, people! It took me four hours! And everyone who posted after the furor began, without exception, even those I did not agree with, all had good points and all won my allegiance at some point in the reading.

Does this sort of plain hard work sorting out the issues go on at any other forum on the net? Not that I've ever seen. Incredible. Just had to come on and say, "Wow!"

Feyhera

They can hardly blame you for using a different voice. You have to adapt to who you are dealing with (or Aspies wouldn't have so much trouble).

I've just finished reading the entire sixteen pages at one sitting - with a break for dinner - LOL - and found it very enjoyable and informative reading. I found myself swaying back and forth, the arguments and points of view were all so persuasive, so clearly and intelligently presented - and without animosity. I have a new fondness and respect for Postperson, which I hope she won't be appalled to hear, as I know she found me tedious at one point in time when I was newly arrived here.

After sixty-five years of not understanding why my life was such a difficult piece of work, such an utter wreck, I finally realized that Aspergers was the only answer that made any sense and I landed on this planet with stars in my eyes, annoying the hell out of many people I'm sure. Especially since I'd never been on an internet forum before. I'm sure I stepped on lots of toes, and mine were stepped upon as well. But that's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand your concerns, Postperson, and I share them. I would not want to see WP become a microcosom of real life where we have to play "Follow the Leader" or "Simon Says" or "Mother May I?" like good little planeteers. At the same time, all people with a genuine concern for the problems and difficulties, as well as the hopes and dreams, of the autism community, should be welcomed and respected as members who wish to work and play with us - as equals. I think we should put our differences aside, get to understand each other better, and forge ahead toward a common goal.

I have only one question:
Feyhera, you are a brilliant woman whose life could be made into a great novel or a mini-series, but - your signature drives me crazy. Do you realize that it's offensive?

Tried to insert table, failed miserably, (we don't have the table or list features here)
still here are the stats of posters and posts in this thread

Last edited by cosmiccat on 28 Jul 2009, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.