The site where they BASH Aspie husband and wives. :O

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Yep. It's classic circular logic. "You won't acknowledge it in yourself because you don't see it. And you will never see it because you refuse to acknowledge it." Therefore, they are always right. It's a closed loop.

What that poster was referring to is not what I call self knowledge, but social awareness, knowledge of what others think of you. Well, you can have the knowledge that someone thinks your behavior is horrible and still choose to disagree with it.

For me it is really important to have a sense of self that is independent of what others think of me. I feel like that's something every person should have. I wonder if that's something that some of the women in that forum struggle with. It kind of sounds like it, reading their comments. They talk a lot about feeling like they get blamed for everything.

I don't think they even care what is or isn't AS behavior. They just want to blame everything on it. I do not doubt that some of those women were in abusive relationships/marriages so they still suffer from it and I think that is horrible for what they had to go through and what their partners did and how they treated them and their kids. Then there are some others who are truly nasty because they are insensitive about their partners and no matter what their partner does, it will never be good enough because it's learned behavior or modeled and they still want their partners to read their minds and don't accept them so they see the negative in everything. I even saw a thread by them admitting about doing things to deliberately set off their partner's sensory issues because they refuse to accommodate them and walking around them and bending backwards. Yes some are that cruel.

I remember seeing a thread years back about women complaining about their partners spitting in the kitchen sink and connecting it to AS. To me that is a classic. I spat in my kitchen sink and my husband did it all the time. Spit can be washed down and dishes in it are washed. Then I remember (can't remember if it was the same thread but I think it was another thread) seeing women complaining about how their men don't put their dirty clothes in the right spot or their shoes or how they don't pick up and they were also blaming it on AS. I could see this was just being a man, nothing to do with any condition. One woman spoke up saying this was a guy thing, not an AS thing and I was so happy there were some smart women in that group. Now today that would be frowned upon. That group has changed. They are more hostile about aspies than before. They also seem to think anyone has AS.

This forum is in no way parallel to the other, if that was the implication received from my post.



Agree.



Personally I don't see the difference to be so prominent as you have outlined here, but I do agree with your general point, assuming I have interpreted it correctly.

I think it's horrible too. And no doubt some of them probably have PTSD from it and are not exactly looking at things in a rational way because of that. They sound very reactive and defensive over the least little thing.




Yes I think some of them would never be pleased with anything. And I have seen some of them say explicitly that they believe their partner should be able to read their mind.



I haven't seen that, wow, that is awful.



That's what I think when I read some of it. They complain about things that are just typical of men to do, really ordinary stuff and then blame it all on AS. They have even speculated that maybe all men have AS.

I wonder what changed the tone there. I feel relieved when I see that someone spoke up with some common sense. But it looks like they get shut up pretty quickly and have their posts deleted.

That sensory issue thread was posted a few years back. It would now take paid membership to probably find it.

I recall seeing some women there saying they have PTSD for their partner.

I think that place is just for them to bash aspies and rant and moan without being told "That's not AS" or hearing any positives about it. I don't follow that logic. I thought it would be a relief to know it's not autism and to know they're not all bad people.

Wonder what they do and what they teach their kids about other kinds of hate speech.

I think it's important to recognize that right now, their position is still a minority position. Because this kind of talk can take off in some situations and lead to awful things. Hopefully this is just words.

NTs are social and get their validation from others, which is the majority.

AS are individuals who's self-knowledge is internal and though may be validated by logic/reason or experience, is not validated by others.

The self-knowledge of each neurotype is different in origin and function.
One is part of an individual intelligence, and the other part of a system intelligence.

While there are compatibility issues that originate from each side, there is also a one-way type of interaction that goes on there.
The aspie may reject the social pressure he/she experiences directly, and social pressure from his/her significant other, but can accept that the social system intelligence exists.
From the NT perspective, the individual intelligence is neither recognized or accepted in any situation.

Obviously I know exceptions can exist, but that's not the point. The point is to show the results of two different systematic ways of processing information.

So, we're narcissists now? Wonderful. Also, this person claims that she's been on Wrongplanet, I wonder who it was.

Also, I've recently been PMed by Elkclan, asking me to forget about that forum. I've just sent her one back saying the same thing, that when start spreading misinformation about us, it becomes our problem.

After reading a few threads in the AS Partners forum, I have come to the conclusion that I'm an NT married to an Aspie and not the other way around.

I've had the same thought

I'm grateful to have my relationship to a fellow aspie. I can't imagine how painful it must be to be in a relationship with one of us and not know of our condition and the ways in which it affects our relationships. My heart goes out to all the suffering on both sides. Understanding is key here. The sooner you can read about AS and how it affects relationships, the better. Enact the changes you can and change your environment to accommodate that which you can't change. The hurt doesn't have to go on. Being self-aware goes such a long way.

In psychology, self-knowledge involves self-awareness and presents to us our mental representations of our own identities. Identities are formed and shaped partially by the environment (e.g. downloaded, as you have suggested). Social reflection is a major contributor, though I wouldn't presume it to a source of validation unique to NTs (and the sole one at that).

I have observed that autistic individuals are strictly less likely to reject the social pressure if they are not aware of it. I have an autistic friend in real life, who is more socially anxious than I am, and we both have the same commonality of having grown up as outcasts. I see no indication that NTs and autistics are conditioned by social pressures in a different way, just that NTs are naturally receptive of social cues and as a result more readily conditioned by society (positives and negatives for each side). I will attempt to relate it to a video game scenario:

. There are two people, Person 1 and Person 2.
. Person 1 is familiar with computers as they have had access to them
. Person 2 is not familiar with computers
. They are to play an RTS (real-time strategy) video game, a genre unknown to both people

For the sake of the scenario, assume that the computer is equivalent to the social game. Person 1 (neurotypical) may not be the most successful computer user in existence, however they possess sufficient knowledge due to having access to them their whole life (social awareness). Person 1 will not have to learn how to use a keyboard, a mouse, nor how those devices interact with the game - intuitive (social) learning will take place, whereby they apply their knowledge of computers to the game, and so are effectively only learning how to play the specific game (a specific social context). To correctly play the game (awareness of social pressures), Person 2 (autistic) would have to learn all of that which Person 1 had already learned while simultaneously learning the game. They will not be quick to discover that you can use hotkeys rather than the mouse (a social cue), and so will struggle with the game due to inefficient play, but as a result of being unaware, will be ignorant of the consequences (social pressure). After extended experience with computers and the RTS genre, both Players will improve, but Player 2 would have a far steeper learning curve and thus require increased time and/or exposure. Ultimately, the end result is the same when experience reaches a critical point.



It's impossible for me to argue, as I can only really speak for myself from an NT perspective. I don't feel that I have my self-knowledge validated by a majority, especially not online. I accept that others can interpret my persona in certain ways, and at times I consider their point of view, though ultimately I still have my own individual validation. I assumed that was true of most, if not all introverts.

It's an incredibly vague statement to make, but I do see sense to your theories, just I feel there is a lot of 'grey' missing from them. You can show that there are two different ways of processing information, but they seem to apply at different times, to different people, typically with commonalities as we are all part of the same species. I think a large part of this is that accurate interpretation is difficult, being that this is a forum (not a very.. scientific environment) with posts spread across multiple threads with unclear definition.

How long ago was that sensory issue thread posted? We could probably still find it by browsing through the forum. Anyway, that's abusive behaviour.

I think it was around early 2010 maybe January or late 2009.

I thought it was abusive behavior as well and cruel and mean. It's different if it's unintentional or if they were just doing their normal living they cannot help like if they have to vacuum or clean or make dinner or use a blender to make something but to do it just to upset them and torture them is mean and they made it pretty clear what they were doing.

I wanted to point out here to substitute PRIMARY for the word SOLE.
I just saw where this much has been proven in experiments with both chimps and humans, though I already knew it to be true from observation.



I don't know if this was a typing mistake, but I wanted to point out that a conditional formed like this could not possibly make it into a scientific evaluation.
Conditioning exists and does not require awareness.




At first I'm tempted to suggest that perhaps your friend's autism is very mild. However, to satisfy your need for specifics I would say that it seems that your friend's way of processing information is similar to your own, resulting in a relatively high level of social contamination.



Using your scenario, substituting in autism, and extrapolating, would produce a result where a given amount of experience would result in the NT and autistic behaving the same, because it assumes a similar processing technique. In real life this doesn't happen.
The autistic can become conditioned so that behaviors look the same from the outside, but the process is still different. This can be verified easily by changing the environment in small increments and watching how the changes are handled. It can also be verified by using the very straightforward method of asking the autistic what they are thinking and how they are reaching the conclusions that control their behavior.

I'm not discounting your experience with your friend, but so far everything I have observed supports the theory that information is processed in a distinctly different manner. And yes I know there is a wide spectrum of variations.

Going back to your game scenario, the autistic may filter out most of the rules of the game as being irrelevant, and proceed to reason other ways to complete the task at hand, however it is perceived. A common object of games is to score more points, but the autistic may also filter this out and work towards a different goal.

Tying this back to the subject of this thread, the problems experienced in these relationships do not seem to be based on an amount of time or experience, but on different perceptions of reality and how they are processed.

While the autistic may be used to invalidation from all sides, the NT will not be used to invalidation. The NT will especially not be able to provide any validation for their aspie partner, which is in theory just as hard for the aspie to cope with as the NT. In real life the further the NT is pulled into the reality of the aspie, the more the NT will be deprived of the chemical rewards in the brain that they are accustomed to getting for following social norms. Apparently many of them approach this issue very emotionally as opposed to using reason to work things out.

Meanwhile the NT will still be getting at least some validation from outside of the relationship and be powerfully tempted to seek more validation, so as to satisfy their need for the chemical reward.

Again, the expectation of the NT is for the aspie to cooperate with them in supplying them a certain level of bliss. The assumption being that the aspie will also be receiving a similar level of bliss from the exchange.

I think I am interpreting this incorrectly. I will explain my view with another story:

If I were to travel to an Alien world where I could not recognize any social cue (tones, expressions, non-verbal language etc.) I would be ignorant to all social pressure. I could make assumptions that they were laughing at me, or with me, or that they expected me to agree with them, but I would never know, and therefore would not be aware of their customs. The pressure that affected me would come from within my head only, in this instance, and would exist based on my current experience here on Earth. For example, if the Aliens silenced after I spoke, I would probably assume they were shocked and didn't like me. I imagine that if I was born straight into that world (as a person with AS is here) I would have no clue what that meant until I had learned from experience and thus feel no pressure to perhaps go back on what I said, agree with them or whatever was being conditioned.



I don't expect you to believe me, but he is my primary source for the autistic experience. If it's of any help, he was non-verbal for 6 years and had severe autism up until around 13 years, whereby he has since adapted to society to a point that it may be exceeding my own adaptation. Prior to him confiding within me that he had autism, I thought he most closely resembled myself of all my friends.

I suppose his autism would be described as 'mild' now, but considering how 'mild autism' dominates this forum and much of the autistic communities in society, I would not be surprised if his perspective is commonplace, and the nature of the posts that I view tend to support that general idea - there are so many with social anxiety. This was partially the basis of the computer story in my previous post.

I have had so many conversations with him, and unless he is a pathological liar, I feel so very similar to him in terms of our thought processes. He is definitely unable to ignore the social pressure, and actually seems more affected by it than I am. He wears beanies and scarfs during summer days so that others will think he is attractive, and never contributes a fully independent opinion in group discussion.



For me, this remains to be seen, in that I have not talked privately with an autistic (other than two in real life) concerning their views. It's not something I dismiss, but cannot accept at this moment.

There is a chance that my own perspective is skewed by my lacking a personal descriptor for my own behaviours. I can't exactly describe my thought processes as to me, my mind feels like the embodiment of 'grey', where there is no answer akin to what you have written. I have enormous amounts of cognitive dissonance, because I stress myself out when I reason through behaviour and thus stop thinking abruptly.

I am affected by social pressures. Two examples:

. My boss yells at me in a way I think is unfair, and I get angry. If I know that I can't get another job I would not say anything because I would likely be fired, or disliked by him to the point where chance of future promotion was lost. If I could have him reprimanded for his actions, I would do so, but only if it did not result in consequences that would impact me to an extent where it would not be worth doing. I would have to accept that he was my boss, and that for now, I was stuck with him. I would resent him, but would still have to 'lick his sack' to have a successful work-life. It is out of my control.

. I go to the movies with two acquaintances, and they both vote to see Harry Potter, but I want to see Star Wars. I would immediately feel pressured into voting Harry Potter, but rationalize it in my head, for example, that two wanted to see Harry Potter and only one Star Wars, so any chance of convincing them would be low and/or perceived as selfish (similar purpose to stimming - reducing anxiety). I have a low level of self-confidence when with people that aren't close to me, not desiring conflict, and in need of more friends. Once friends, I would have no such problem.

At times in my life where I had higher confidence (when I was younger), I had no such problems. You could see me as the only one voting for a specific answer to a maths problem when the whole class was voting the opposite, if I knew it was correct. Today, that is much less likely, as I would consider the risk of having all the attention on me if I were wrong to outweigh the benefits of feeling good from being the only person to get it right. This low-confidence is delusional in that I know nobody truly cares if I get something wrong and they all get it right, but I will still feel that way due to past experiences.

To me, the conditioning here is represented in both neurotypes. There are many posts plastered throughout this forum where individuals describe their depleted self-esteem, and a resulting submission to others (if you would call it that). My friend also reports identical experiences to myself.



In my friends case, it is primarily emotions and abstract that are processed differently. He groups his emotions into two groups 'scared' or 'happy' and claims to have no empathy (though I convinced him that he did after pointing it out). He does not understand complex abstract concepts at all and simply memorizes information that he reads regarding them. In terms of self-knowledge or identity (the original topic) he will describe himself just as I describe myself. He is male, 19 years old etc.

I used your money test on him, and asked if it was real, and he responded with yes, just as most seem to. I see this to be a problem with the terminology rather than the actual perspective of a person. When you ask somebody if something is 'real', they will consider money to be real as they would have attached the term to the paper; when you ask somebody the question it makes sense that they would think of the paper rather than the concept itself. They will likely not apply the necessary definitions of real or imaginary. If an alien came here, nobody would give them money, as it is not a 'real' thing. I am sure most would realize that to the alien, it is just paper.



I don't agree with using that website as an example of different perceptions and reality, as there are so many people out there that complain in that fashion about their partners (whom don't have AS). Most posts on that website are deplorable, and it brings in to question whether they would not do the same with an NT partner - in fact, the partners over there do not always have AS even when the NTs claim that they do.



I might edit this in the future to reply to this part. I'm too hungry at the moment.

I hope to investigate the neuroscience behind this. There's far too much information relying on a brain being 'wired differently' but no specifics as to which wires are modified and to what extent.