Is autism becoming infantalised?
09 Sep 2020, 12:13 pm
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Nades wrote:
I imagine to most of you it's no mystery that Autism has some degree of a "childlike" stigma to it. Indeed, most of the social groups for people with autism are mostly focused on parents with autistic children. All the social media groups relating to autism I have joined are almost exclusively parent and child orientated and very little is for adults despite the fact most people with autism are over 18. I have managed to find out very good group for adults with autism in my area but that's so far it.
Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.
Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.
I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.
I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.
Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?
Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.
Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.
I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.
I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.
Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?
Here are the issues with what you say.
1. I don't know what country you live in but I come from the USA. I don't know if other societies says this or not. This is the same society that says be yourself and be true to who you are. So, it seems like a bunch of mixed messages.
2. Let me ask you this. First, Fnord was able to succeed in society and it was due to his DOD (dear old dad) method. Second, for every Fnord who succeeded with his DOD method what is the ratio of those who sunk even though the DOD was applied? How many of autistics were encouraged to succeed, encouraged to have the positive attitude, confidence and change "I can't" to "I can?" How many autistics had family members who believed in them and did everything they could to get them to succeed and be independent, functioning, contributing members of society? What is the ratio of those autistics who were able to be independent vs those who were not in spite of all the encouragement and methods done by various family?
3. Why is it that those with other disabilities like mental retardation gets a free pass? Do those who have intellectual disabilities have the same requirements by society that we autistics do? Why don't they have the same requirements as we do? Why are we expected to conform and contort ourselves no matter how much it affects us negatively yet those who have intellectual disabilities do not? We're seen as ret*d in society's eyes. So, why can't we get the same benefits as what society calls "ret*d" gets?
4. Has anyone looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The reality is for disabled folks in general is that there are more disabled people who are not in the labor force then employed and unemployed. By, the way when you hear about the unemployment rate you don't hear about the "not in the labor force" which means they don't have a job and they quit looking.
5. At what cost must a person continue to try to contort and conform to society's expectations? At what point does the expectations by society become a detriment to a person's mental and physical health and when does the person stand up for himself and say no. No to all of the expectations they can't meet. When is enough, enough?
6. Is it reasonable to expect aid, support and guidance from society to conform and contort ourselves to all of their requirements? Is it reasonable to expect that places like Voc Rehab can have increased funding so the staff can provide effective services to disabled people in an efficient manner? Can we expect services from disability orgs like Voc Rehab to provide services that are meaningful to specific disabilities like ASDs? Are the taxpayers willing to pay for this through their tax dollars?
1. Being true to yourself is subjective. Sometimes being true to yourself can be harmful I'm the long run.
2. I have no idea of the stats. What I have noticed in person is far to many autistics with helicopter parents who do everything regardless of how small. I sense many don't need a "support overdose" but because that's effectively their norm that they've always had, they just roll with. It can get to the point where they just don't attempt to look after themselves. I've seen it in person and I've seen the stress it causes people. It ain't cool to be one of "those" aspies and I look at them with the contempt that they deserve. They expose themselves quickly and I don't associate with them at all anymore.
3 They get a free pass because those disabilities are much more black and white. Aspies are unusual. We are usually fully cognitively able and physically able. What holds us back is a mix of poor social skills, usually excessive anxiety, fear of doing something different and sensory issues if it effects an aspie particularly badly. These traits (other then the last) doesnt preclude an aspie from pretty much doing anything. The first three are textbook aspie traits and can be managed and reduced in a great number for Aspies if they decided to stick with something new for long enough in my personal opinion.
4. Yes they are very poor but are all these aspies genuinely unable to find decent work or are just assuming so and never apply for a lot of jobs? It's one of those things that can't be answered but completely changes the context. Overall aspies are not as well suited for jobs but I think more are able to settle into a job than the stats suggest.
5. That's outside the context of the thread really. It's subjective to the individual but will overtime become apparent if they really are hopeless at particular tasks. I'm useless at shop work but I only discovered after trying to work in a shop for a few months so I don't apply for shop work anymore. I never said anyone has to keep trying if they discover they're not good at it after they tried for a while and failed.
They should be willing to pay more if it helps people. The help I see given far to often is just useless. The help given at least with me was just a token gesture.
11 Sep 2020, 6:59 am
Quote:
1. Being true to yourself is subjective. Sometimes being true to yourself can be harmful I'm the long run.
I'll give you a few examples of what I mean.
When I mean be myself I mean:
a. I don't have to worry about eye contact or lack thereof. If I can't make eye contact it is not counted against me.
b. I don't have to worry about the strength of my grip when it comes to handshakes.
c. I can speak with a monotone voice and I don't have to pretend to be excited or to have emotional fluctuation to my voice.
d. I don't have to have a salesmen ship type extroverted personality to obtain a job.
These are some examples.
Quote:
2. I have no idea of the stats. What I have noticed in person is far to many autistics with helicopter parents who do everything regardless of how small. I sense many don't need a "support overdose" but because that's effectively their norm that they've always had, they just roll with. It can get to the point where they just don't attempt to look after themselves. I've seen it in person and I've seen the stress it causes people. It ain't cool to be one of "those" aspies and I look at them with the contempt that they deserve. They expose themselves quickly and I don't associate with them at all anymore.
Here is my question. Do they receive this "support overdose" because they had so many problems or were a number of problems caused by the "support overdose?" What we have I think is a chicken or the egg problem. How do we tell either way?
Quote:
3 They get a free pass because those disabilities are much more black and white. Aspies are unusual. We are usually fully cognitively able and physically able. What holds us back is a mix of poor social skills, usually excessive anxiety, fear of doing something different and sensory issues if it effects an aspie particularly badly. These traits (other then the last) doesnt preclude an aspie from pretty much doing anything. The first three are textbook aspie traits and can be managed and reduced in a great number for Aspies if they decided to stick with something new for long enough in my personal opinion.
Thing is though a number of us have executive dysfunction, central auditory processing disorder, pragmatic disorder, even if we're average or highly above average intelligent. A number of us do have cognitive disorders. I don't know the stats though.
Quote:
4. Yes they are very poor but are all these aspies genuinely unable to find decent work or are just assuming so and never apply for a lot of jobs? It's one of those things that can't be answered but completely changes the context. Overall aspies are not as well suited for jobs but I think more are able to settle into a job than the stats suggest.
How do you know what they've done or not done overall?
And, if you say they're overall not well suited for jobs then wouldn't it be more likely they won't be able to settle into a job? I don't understand what you said here. Maybe it is my pragmatic disorder.
Quote:
5. That's outside the context of the thread really. It's subjective to the individual but will overtime become apparent if they really are hopeless at particular tasks. I'm useless at shop work but I only discovered after trying to work in a shop for a few months so I don't apply for shop work anymore. I never said anyone has to keep trying if they discover they're not good at it after they tried for a while and failed.
Honestly, I think it needs to be a part of the context.
Quote:
They should be willing to pay more if it helps people. The help I see given far to often is just useless. The help given at least with me was just a token gesture.
Oh, we agree here dude! If they're trying to do BS motivational speaking with a motivational speaker named Eric Thomas they it is token at best and it is useless. That's my experience!
14 Sep 2020, 1:53 pm
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Quote:
1. Being true to yourself is subjective. Sometimes being true to yourself can be harmful I'm the long run.
I'll give you a few examples of what I mean.
When I mean be myself I mean:
a. I don't have to worry about eye contact or lack thereof. If I can't make eye contact it is not counted against me.
b. I don't have to worry about the strength of my grip when it comes to handshakes.
c. I can speak with a monotone voice and I don't have to pretend to be excited or to have emotional fluctuation to my voice.
d. I don't have to have a salesmen ship type extroverted personality to obtain a job.
These are some examples.
Quote:
2. I have no idea of the stats. What I have noticed in person is far to many autistics with helicopter parents who do everything regardless of how small. I sense many don't need a "support overdose" but because that's effectively their norm that they've always had, they just roll with. It can get to the point where they just don't attempt to look after themselves. I've seen it in person and I've seen the stress it causes people. It ain't cool to be one of "those" aspies and I look at them with the contempt that they deserve. They expose themselves quickly and I don't associate with them at all anymore.
Here is my question. Do they receive this "support overdose" because they had so many problems or were a number of problems caused by the "support overdose?" What we have I think is a chicken or the egg problem. How do we tell either way?
Quote:
3 They get a free pass because those disabilities are much more black and white. Aspies are unusual. We are usually fully cognitively able and physically able. What holds us back is a mix of poor social skills, usually excessive anxiety, fear of doing something different and sensory issues if it effects an aspie particularly badly. These traits (other then the last) doesnt preclude an aspie from pretty much doing anything. The first three are textbook aspie traits and can be managed and reduced in a great number for Aspies if they decided to stick with something new for long enough in my personal opinion.
Thing is though a number of us have executive dysfunction, central auditory processing disorder, pragmatic disorder, even if we're average or highly above average intelligent. A number of us do have cognitive disorders. I don't know the stats though.
Quote:
4. Yes they are very poor but are all these aspies genuinely unable to find decent work or are just assuming so and never apply for a lot of jobs? It's one of those things that can't be answered but completely changes the context. Overall aspies are not as well suited for jobs but I think more are able to settle into a job than the stats suggest.
How do you know what they've done or not done overall?
And, if you say they're overall not well suited for jobs then wouldn't it be more likely they won't be able to settle into a job? I don't understand what you said here. Maybe it is my pragmatic disorder.
Quote:
5. That's outside the context of the thread really. It's subjective to the individual but will overtime become apparent if they really are hopeless at particular tasks. I'm useless at shop work but I only discovered after trying to work in a shop for a few months so I don't apply for shop work anymore. I never said anyone has to keep trying if they discover they're not good at it after they tried for a while and failed.
Honestly, I think it needs to be a part of the context.
Quote:
They should be willing to pay more if it helps people. The help I see given far to often is just useless. The help given at least with me was just a token gesture.
Oh, we agree here dude! If they're trying to do BS motivational speaking with a motivational speaker named Eric Thomas they it is token at best and it is useless. That's my experience!
1. To me being true to myself is not trying to allow my aspergers to dictate what paths I take in life. For me it basically means not being overly worried by trying new stuff despite my aspergers saying I should. Iv'e thought that aspies perhaps worry a little too much for their own good.
2. I think it is a chicken and egg argument to a limited extent. Iv'e seen plenty of autistic people drowning in support from friends and family and I have no idea if they need it or not. When I dig deeper however I often find an aspie that's exaggerating their limitations.
3. They can limit someones ability to find and keep a job but not really stop them if they're mild enough. I have terrible executive function problems but while it can be annoying in work it doesn't stop me.
4. When I speak to most autistic people, most seem to have not tried. Harsh and blunt but I see it again and again. It wouldn't grate me as much if they tried and failed as they have an answer there and then but most I seen just assume. Overall aspies are not as able to find and maintain a job but equally it appears many never even try.
5. Support is good as long as it's decent. A lot of support is just motivational now with no substance. Motivational support does nothing to really help people get on with their lives.
14 Sep 2020, 2:33 pm
Hmm...
I'd likely have different ideas of what infantalized means.
But I do know this; I do not instill my own recklessness onto others.
Not even to NTs, let alone to conditions and circumstances highly prone and vulnerable to have anxieties.
It'll be irresponsible of me to assume.
I understand the benefits.
But even that had limits -- harder limits, not just mental or attitudinal issues that obstructs insights, creative solutions and workarounds.
There's an even bigger limit to dismiss anxieties than just 'enabling' it.
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15 Sep 2020, 4:22 am
It's very difficult to tell online who needs the help they're given, who needs more help than they're given and who needs less help (or no help). Or to tell who's workshy versus who can't find work versus who can't work.
And people use 'anxiety' and 'depression' so flippantly. To mean an emotion rather than an illness. That just demonstrates their lack of knowledge about mental health tbh.
I'm lucky to be in a family that's blunt. If my mum was to coddle me beyond what I need, my granddad would tell her. He's not backwards in coming forwards like that. If someone was to learn sign language just for mum I'd say 'that's nice but she can actually hear you if you stand near her hearing ear'. Or if someone was to read things to my cousin and my mum I'd say 'look just because they're dyslexic doesn't mean that's not patronising, they can read fine just give them a bit of time'.
If you genuinely know someone that well, be blunt about it to their family. Say 'I think you're coddling so and so'. But you have to know someone very well to make those judgements without risking doing more harm than good.
If you feel coddled yourself, speak up about it.
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15 Sep 2020, 5:36 am
KT67 wrote:
And people use 'anxiety' and 'depression' so flippantly. To mean an emotion rather than an illness. That just demonstrates their lack of knowledge about mental health tbh.
Many don't.
Many do not know anxiety means they have an oversensitive fight or fight response with symptoms that comes in response, affecting functioning.
Not just mere worry or some personality trait.
How most autistics described (even from the alexithymics, with no emotional contexts and purely symptomatic descriptions and effects) it is still unrelatable for me either ways.
Many do not know depression means they have a form of emotional fatigue, not just sadness, grief or plain resistance to activity.
Funny, this is somewhat more relatable for me to what extend I don't know.
Please do clarify or correct it if I'm wrong in this discernment.
Also as for my idea and perception of coddling...
If I measure being coddled in preassumptious terms of standards, then at least 90%+ of people I've known are being 'coddled'.
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15 Sep 2020, 6:18 am
I just hope that the somewhat reactionary and simplistic comments, by Nades, don't put people off giving and seeking help and support for fear of accusations of mollycoddling/being mollycoddled.
Whether intentionally or not,especially if Nades expresses such views far and wide, their comments can add to the barbaric,callous and uncivilised 'scrounger rhetoric ' POV this government delights in promoting .
15 Sep 2020, 6:43 am
Nades wrote:
1. Being true to yourself is subjective. Sometimes being true to yourself can be harmful I'm the long run.
I agree with this, but often times being true to yourself isn't really true and that can be harmful[/color]Nades]2. I have no idea of the stats. What I have noticed in person is far to many autistics with helicopter parents who do everything regardless of how small. I sense many don't need a "support overdose" but because that's effectively their norm that they've always had, they just roll with. It can get to the point where they just don't attempt to look after themselves. I've seen it in person and I've seen the stress it causes people. It ain't cool to be one of "those" aspies and I look at them with the contempt that they deserve. They expose themselves quickly and I don't associate with them at all anymore.[/quote] If you've seen this you'd also see the number of aspies who work on their issues regardless of said helicopter parenting and the aspies who really need that level of support and you wouldnt know it because you aren't omniscient. Secondly. I have great problem with you saying you refuse to associate with them. That speaks volume about your character imo.
>Oh, I've managed to work through my difficulties and you haven't you clearly aren't worth being around and are pathetic.
That mentality disgusts me. I wouldn't say there is anything else in the autistic community I despise more than this mentality. It's not as black and white as you are making it. Your proposed solutions could often have negative impacts on said persons live that you couldn't foresee. You seem to think that throwing people in the deep end to sink or swim is a good idea. and it simply isn't people need to be prepared and work their way up for it. This entire mentality is toxic. Your welcome to not associate with me at all either. I'd be glad for it.
[quote="Nades wrote:
>Oh, I've managed to work through my difficulties and you haven't you clearly aren't worth being around and are pathetic.
That mentality disgusts me. I wouldn't say there is anything else in the autistic community I despise more than this mentality. It's not as black and white as you are making it. Your proposed solutions could often have negative impacts on said persons live that you couldn't foresee. You seem to think that throwing people in the deep end to sink or swim is a good idea. and it simply isn't people need to be prepared and work their way up for it. This entire mentality is toxic. Your welcome to not associate with me at all either. I'd be glad for it.
[quote="Nades wrote:
3 They get a free pass because those disabilities are much more black and white. Aspies are unusual. We are usually fully cognitively able and physically able. What holds us back is a mix of poor social skills, usually excessive anxiety, fear of doing something different and sensory issues if it effects an aspie particularly badly. These traits (other then the last) doesnt preclude an aspie from pretty much doing anything. The first three are textbook aspie traits and can be managed and reduced in a great number for Aspies if they decided to stick with something new for long enough in my personal opinion.
This idea is a load of horses**t. I couldn't say ti better than that. I can't think of a single that that is true about this post. You know the aspie isn't going to be prevented from being a stunning socialite who can dazzle anyone with their superior social skills. It's going to make it absolutely easy for them to work as a construction worker surrounded by constant noise. It's going to make it super simple for them to move around constantly fi the job requires it. You know they'd be able to do that construction job with constant drilling and loud noises if they just tried hard enough right. Of course that's the answer. I'm going to go sign up for a construction job right now. This is so absurd that it's funny. Like do you even hear the things you are saying right now.
Nades wrote:
4. Yes they are very poor but are all these aspies genuinely unable to find decent work or are just assuming so and never apply for a lot of jobs? It's one of those things that can't be answered but completely changes the context. Overall aspies are not as well suited for jobs but I think more are able to settle into a job than the stats suggest.
You are literally making a massive assumption based on zero evidence and 100% personal bias. and It's not even just an aspie thing loads of people have degrees and can't get a job beyond minimum wage. I think the problem with the stats is that a good portion of the unemployed aspies are unable to work or aren't seeking work. And people take that to mean they are seeking to work when they just aren't [/coor]
Nades wrote:
5. That's outside the context of the thread really. It's subjective to the individual but will overtime become apparent if they really are hopeless at particular tasks. I'm useless at shop work but I only discovered after trying to work in a shop for a few months so I don't apply for shop work anymore. I never said anyone has to keep trying if they discover they're not good at it after they tried for a while and failed.
[color=#0077cc] If only the world worked that way where if you are not good at something you don't have to try at it. the reality is peopel don't have the luxury of not doing things you are bad at. Sometimes you are forced tod o things that you are bad at because there is no other option. It's kind of weird that you think that's true considering your general mentality
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I am pieplup i have level 3 autism and a number of severe mental illnesses. I am rarely active on here anymore.
I run a discord for moderate-severely autistic people if anyone would like to join. You can also contact me on discord @Pieplup
15 Sep 2020, 7:24 am
Pieplup wrote:
Nades wrote:
1. Being true to yourself is subjective. Sometimes being true to yourself can be harmful I'm the long run.
I agree with this, but often times being true to yourself isn't really true and that can be harmful[/color]Nades]2. I have no idea of the stats. What I have noticed in person is far to many autistics with helicopter parents who do everything regardless of how small. I sense many don't need a "support overdose" but because that's effectively their norm that they've always had, they just roll with. It can get to the point where they just don't attempt to look after themselves. I've seen it in person and I've seen the stress it causes people. It ain't cool to be one of "those" aspies and I look at them with the contempt that they deserve. They expose themselves quickly and I don't associate with them at all anymore.[/quote] If you've seen this you'd also see the number of aspies who work on their issues regardless of said helicopter parenting and the aspies who really need that level of support and you wouldnt know it because you aren't omniscient. Secondly. I have great problem with you saying you refuse to associate with them. That speaks volume about your character imo.
>Oh, I've managed to work through my difficulties and you haven't you clearly aren't worth being around and are pathetic.
That mentality disgusts me. I wouldn't say there is anything else in the autistic community I despise more than this mentality. It's not as black and white as you are making it. Your proposed solutions could often have negative impacts on said persons live that you couldn't foresee. You seem to think that throwing people in the deep end to sink or swim is a good idea. and it simply isn't people need to be prepared and work their way up for it. This entire mentality is toxic. Your welcome to not associate with me at all either. I'd be glad for it.
[quote="Nades wrote:
>Oh, I've managed to work through my difficulties and you haven't you clearly aren't worth being around and are pathetic.
That mentality disgusts me. I wouldn't say there is anything else in the autistic community I despise more than this mentality. It's not as black and white as you are making it. Your proposed solutions could often have negative impacts on said persons live that you couldn't foresee. You seem to think that throwing people in the deep end to sink or swim is a good idea. and it simply isn't people need to be prepared and work their way up for it. This entire mentality is toxic. Your welcome to not associate with me at all either. I'd be glad for it.
[quote="Nades wrote:
3 They get a free pass because those disabilities are much more black and white. Aspies are unusual. We are usually fully cognitively able and physically able. What holds us back is a mix of poor social skills, usually excessive anxiety, fear of doing something different and sensory issues if it effects an aspie particularly badly. These traits (other then the last) doesnt preclude an aspie from pretty much doing anything. The first three are textbook aspie traits and can be managed and reduced in a great number for Aspies if they decided to stick with something new for long enough in my personal opinion.
This idea is a load of horses**t. I couldn't say ti better than that. I can't think of a single that that is true about this post. You know the aspie isn't going to be prevented from being a stunning socialite who can dazzle anyone with their superior social skills. It's going to make it absolutely easy for them to work as a construction worker surrounded by constant noise. It's going to make it super simple for them to move around constantly fi the job requires it. You know they'd be able to do that construction job with constant drilling and loud noises if they just tried hard enough right. Of course that's the answer. I'm going to go sign up for a construction job right now. This is so absurd that it's funny. Like do you even hear the things you are saying right now.
Nades wrote:
4. Yes they are very poor but are all these aspies genuinely unable to find decent work or are just assuming so and never apply for a lot of jobs? It's one of those things that can't be answered but completely changes the context. Overall aspies are not as well suited for jobs but I think more are able to settle into a job than the stats suggest.
You are literally making a massive assumption based on zero evidence and 100% personal bias. and It's not even just an aspie thing loads of people have degrees and can't get a job beyond minimum wage. I think the problem with the stats is that a good portion of the unemployed aspies are unable to work or aren't seeking work. And people take that to mean they are seeking to work when they just aren't [/coor]
Nades wrote:
5. That's outside the context of the thread really. It's subjective to the individual but will overtime become apparent if they really are hopeless at particular tasks. I'm useless at shop work but I only discovered after trying to work in a shop for a few months so I don't apply for shop work anymore. I never said anyone has to keep trying if they discover they're not good at it after they tried for a while and failed.
[color=#0077cc] If only the world worked that way where if you are not good at something you don't have to try at it. the reality is peopel don't have the luxury of not doing things you are bad at. Sometimes you are forced tod o things that you are bad at because there is no other option. It's kind of weird that you think that's true considering your general mentality
So? .I've seen autistics who jump on the bus when it suits them but insist on pressuring others into driving for them with seemingly with no explanation on trips they've made before by bus. Just because they're an aspie doesn't mean they can treat people like their personal servant and it doesn't somehow make it OK. What I'm saying is based on personal experience from aspies I've met face to face many times. Not on this website. I'm free to judge them how I like and if i sense they're freeloading or explotting others then good riddance to them from my social circle. Aspies can be jerks too and many I've met know full well what they request will be granted because others struggle to say no to an aspie.
Compulsory job training and 3 days free driving lessons after the final year of school is the most extreme I've mentioned. Stop exaggerating the harm that will cause. Why even go to school if you can't handle that? How is it any different from the many compulsory lessons in school, compulsory swimming lessons in junior school, compulsory work experience in year 10?
Where have I mentioned forcing an aspie to work in a job they're really struggling with?
I know employment is very poor for Aspies, but do you have proof about the number of applications they make? My personal opinion is that many Aspies never try to enter the world of work and never tried to find a job that suits them. Finding stats on just how many apply for work is probably very difficult and I imagine none have been collected.
Last edited by Nades on 15 Sep 2020, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
15 Sep 2020, 9:08 am
I was specifically infantalised (not sure that's the right word though) when it came to work experience. They noticed I had poor people skills so put me in an office folding leaflets. Only on the last day could I demonstrate actual skill - designing advertising posters on the computer because I was creative & good on the computer. They told me they regretted not knowing that sooner.
I think we're looking at it from two different perspectives.
I think there's a lot of reasons why a dyspraxic, HFA, intelligent kid could go to school but still struggle with motor skills. In this case literally lol. Might be unsafe to put them behind the wheel of a car, unless it's on a private road which proves nothing. Even maths and science are held back for those kids because of assumptions that if you can't do something practically, you can't understand it.
I was a real swot & a clever kid esp when it came to book learning etc. Sometimes I learned more with family home schooling than being in school. But that didn't mean I didn't 'belong' in school.
I think it's a conversation better had privately. To that person or to the people you think are coddling them.
If you generalise, people will think you mean all aspies because that's how the aspie mind works sometimes.
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15 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm
firemonkey wrote:
I just hope that the somewhat reactionary and simplistic comments, by Nades, don't put people off giving and seeking help and support for fear of accusations of mollycoddling/being mollycoddled.
Whether intentionally or not,especially if Nades expresses such views far and wide, their comments can add to the barbaric,callous and uncivilised 'scrounger rhetoric ' POV this government delights in promoting .
Whether intentionally or not,especially if Nades expresses such views far and wide, their comments can add to the barbaric,callous and uncivilised 'scrounger rhetoric ' POV this government delights in promoting .
This.
15 Sep 2020, 2:35 pm
firemonkey wrote:
I just hope that the somewhat reactionary and simplistic comments, by Nades, don't put people off giving and seeking help and support for fear of accusations of mollycoddling/being mollycoddled.
Whether intentionally or not,especially if Nades expresses such views far and wide, their comments can add to the barbaric,callous and uncivilised 'scrounger rhetoric ' POV this government delights in promoting .
Whether intentionally or not,especially if Nades expresses such views far and wide, their comments can add to the barbaric,callous and uncivilised 'scrounger rhetoric ' POV this government delights in promoting .
I agree.
I think it's cos he's autistic himself that he's seeing it in such a black and white way (saying 'aspies' instead of 'this person I know who's autistic') and posting it on here rather than having a private word tbh.
Even then, you have to know someone pretty well before dishing out advice & knowing what's best for them & won't harm them when it comes to this kind of stuff. I'd only trust myself to do that when it comes to family.
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15 Sep 2020, 3:42 pm
KT67 wrote:
I was specifically infantalised (not sure that's the right word though) when it came to work experience. They noticed I had poor people skills so put me in an office folding leaflets. Only on the last day could I demonstrate actual skill - designing advertising posters on the computer because I was creative & good on the computer. They told me they regretted not knowing that sooner.
I think we're looking at it from two different perspectives.
I think there's a lot of reasons why a dyspraxic, HFA, intelligent kid could go to school but still struggle with motor skills. In this case literally lol. Might be unsafe to put them behind the wheel of a car, unless it's on a private road which proves nothing. Even maths and science are held back for those kids because of assumptions that if you can't do something practically, you can't understand it.
I was a real swot & a clever kid esp when it came to book learning etc. Sometimes I learned more with family home schooling than being in school. But that didn't mean I didn't 'belong' in school.
I think it's a conversation better had privately. To that person or to the people you think are coddling them.
If you generalise, people will think you mean all aspies because that's how the aspie mind works sometimes.
I think we're looking at it from two different perspectives.
I think there's a lot of reasons why a dyspraxic, HFA, intelligent kid could go to school but still struggle with motor skills. In this case literally lol. Might be unsafe to put them behind the wheel of a car, unless it's on a private road which proves nothing. Even maths and science are held back for those kids because of assumptions that if you can't do something practically, you can't understand it.
I was a real swot & a clever kid esp when it came to book learning etc. Sometimes I learned more with family home schooling than being in school. But that didn't mean I didn't 'belong' in school.
I think it's a conversation better had privately. To that person or to the people you think are coddling them.
If you generalise, people will think you mean all aspies because that's how the aspie mind works sometimes.
I was generalising all aspies in the broadest of sense. I think the problem was that this thread was quickly misinterpreted. I think to much ableism is bad, there is no doubt about that but I also think too much "disableism" if that's even a word is bad. I think over the last few years the pendulum has swung to far the other way. Iv'e noticed parents being far to overprotective over their kids (many adults) and stifling them and Iv'e also noticed aspies jumping on the support bandwagon feigning the level of disabilities they actually have with the intention of getting support I know they didn't need. Perhaps it was always like that, I don't know but where is the line drawn? This thread was never intended for the people who genuinely do have trouble and I never mentioned removing benefits from them (I still have no idea why so many thought I said that, I never once did).
The most extreme comment I made was a mandatory 3 day equivalent of driving lessons and job training/work at the end of the final year of school. If it turns out someone is unable to drive, chances are they will just be spending their entire time on an industrial estate and not thrown out onto busy A roads. If they struggle with it to such a degree then driving just wasn't for them and they now know. I also never even mentioned what job training/work was going to be but from the reaction it felt like people assumed I wanted to set up sweat shops around the UK putting aspies in the worst possible environments imaginable indefinitely as slave labour or something. Obviously I never in my wildest dreams would want that. That being said, I feel people really need to just use a little more common sense when reading what others say. If I say I don't like cats I doesn't mean I'm going to capture all the dogs in the country and lock them in cages forever.
Likewise if I say I think aspies and autistic people are being given to much support for their own good to the point where it harms their life chances, it doesn't translate at all to "I want to throw all aspies under a bus regardless of their level of ability" like this thread seems to have been interpenetrated as. We had our disagreements especially at the beginning of the thread but I think you've seen that I don't want to cause any harm to people in genuine need of help. Unfortunately I think others have not.
15 Sep 2020, 5:36 pm
Nades wrote:
Likewise if I say I think aspies and autistic people are being given to much support for their own good to the point where it harms their life chances, it doesn't translate at all to "I want to throw all aspies under a bus regardless of their level of ability" like this thread seems to have been interpenetrated as. We had our disagreements especially at the beginning of the thread but I think you've seen that I don't want to cause any harm to people in genuine need of help. Unfortunately I think others have not.
The trouble is you've already decided that most of us are undeserving when it comes to help and support. Unintelligent right wing types cover their bile against the disabled by phrases such as " I don't want to cause any harm to people in genuine need of help". The level that's required to meet 'genuine need of help' being set so high as to ensure that most aspies ,or other disabled people, are seen as feckless ne'er do wells.
It's dishonest,it's nasty, it's the kind of thing that encourages hate crimes against the disabled.
15 Sep 2020, 5:46 pm
firemonkey wrote:
The trouble is you've already decided that most of us are undeserving when it comes to help and support.
No I didn't. Once again I said nothing whatsoever about removing support from people who need it. Never once said it, never will say it and frankly it's starting to get old hurling this accusation against me. I also never said there was some threshold for getting help too..........ever.
15 Sep 2020, 6:20 pm
It's not a pattern I've noticed.
I've noticed people have their stereotypes about autistic people. NTs seem to think every autistic person is either a (cis) boy or his grown up counterpart, that severe autism is grown out of in childhood, replaced with a kind of savant syndrome, & that every autistic person is white or maybe far east Asian. That's a pattern I've actually noticed.
I've noticed the workplace becoming increasingly about people skills although i saw a report today suggesting the virus might make it push back in the other direction - good for autistic, non dyspraxic types who might want to take up a job in the building industry or delivery for eg or autistic people who might want to try packing or online work.
I've noticed a lot of older NTs think HFA, dyspraxia and dyslexia don't exist.
I've noticed a pattern where if you're good at school people will get surprised by what you can't do. Esp if it's an invisible disability. They seem to think there's a binary of 'smart' and 'stupid' instead of people finding some things hard and some things not. I think that's because NTs generally learn more holistically to how we learn.
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