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draelynn
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25 May 2011, 7:12 am

kfisherx wrote:
Boy: "Did you hear about the tornadoes? Worst ever they are saying;"
Me: "I don't have TV so have heard but don't know details" (red card laid down)
Boy: "Oh?"
Me: "How do they determine worst ever tornado?" (green card down)
Boy: "I really don't know."
Me: "Oh?" "How many square miles did it cover?" (another green card)
Boy" "I really don't know.."
Me now annoyed: "Why did you start the conversation with this topic that you know nothing about?" (another green card)
Me: "Gotta go..." (used the escape technique)

I got NOTHING to prove. (I will keep saying this all day tomorrow as I face yet another adventure in the social skills class on Thursday)


:lol: I don't think that poor kid knew what hit him! I think it went off the rails at 'don't know the DETAILS'...



kfisherx
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25 May 2011, 9:06 am

draelynn wrote:
:lol: I don't think that poor kid knew what hit him! I think it went off the rails at 'don't know the DETAILS'...


Why start a conversation with a stranger if you cannot go at least 1 level down? Seriously? Whatever is the point? I did not ask him anything technical. I will NEVER understand this crap. I was so focused on the "game" and visualizing the cards that I was not really "in" the conversation.... Kid should have stuck to his college plans. At least THAT one he could answer simple question...



draelynn
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25 May 2011, 10:44 am

kfisherx wrote:
draelynn wrote:
:lol: I don't think that poor kid knew what hit him! I think it went off the rails at 'don't know the DETAILS'...


Why start a conversation with a stranger if you cannot go at least 1 level down? Seriously? Whatever is the point? I did not ask him anything technical. I will NEVER understand this crap. I was so focused on the "game" and visualizing the cards that I was not really "in" the conversation.... Kid should have stuck to his college plans. At least THAT one he could answer simple question...


I'm not sure your 'game' applies to 'random stranger' small talk. Stranger small talk is more about saying nothing... it's just a topic to exchange words about without engaging each other in a meaningful way. In essence, its considered 'polite' to acknowledge someone with a conversation about nothing... just to be friendly. I'm not sure going '1 level up' is required or expected at this shallow level.

'Nice weather we're having."
"Yeah, finally warming up."
(checking out groceries)
"The weekend is supposed to be nice, too."
"Nice weekend to work in the garden."
(finish sale)
"Well nice talking to you - have a nice day."
"You too, see you next time."

It is annoying. It is pointless. It is considered friendly, amiable and approachable. Major retailers have entire training sessions on providing this as customer service. I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point (because now I'm required to monitor eye contact, face expressions, appropriate niceties at opening and closing the conversation...) Alot of work for a conversation that retail clerks are trained to provide for YOUR comfort. Alot of the time, they could really care less too. So, two people are engaging in a pointless conversation neither really wants to be in because some study by some nameless sociologist suggested it would make the shopping experience more meaningful...



wavefreak58
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25 May 2011, 10:56 am

draelynn wrote:
I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point


These conversations are not pointless. They just don't have the purpose of providing concrete information. The point of these conversations is to communicate a sense of community and inclusion. The specific words are irrelevant to what is actually being communicated.


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draelynn
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25 May 2011, 11:15 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
draelynn wrote:
I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point


These conversations are not pointless. They just don't have the purpose of providing concrete information. The point of these conversations is to communicate a sense of community and inclusion. The specific words are irrelevant to what is actually being communicated.


But that kind of IS the point... nothing is being communicated to me and I am not communicating anything to them. This 'feel good' connection is entirely one way and, usually, I have no idea if I accomplished it or not. If they are reading something from this type of communication, it is all in their own head. It's not something I am conveying verbally or 'invisibly'. It is all affectation for their benefit. I get nothing from it personally. I do not feel included or part of the community because of it.



kfisherx
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25 May 2011, 11:33 am

draelynn wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
draelynn wrote:
I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point


These conversations are not pointless. They just don't have the purpose of providing concrete information. The point of these conversations is to communicate a sense of community and inclusion. The specific words are irrelevant to what is actually being communicated.


But that kind of IS the point... nothing is being communicated to me and I am not communicating anything to them. This 'feel good' connection is entirely one way and, usually, I have no idea if I accomplished it or not. If they are reading something from this type of communication, it is all in their own head. It's not something I am conveying verbally or 'invisibly'. It is all affectation for their benefit. I get nothing from it personally. I do not feel included or part of the community because of it.


^^^THIS^^^

This game better damned well be applicable to random strangers 'cause that is why I am playing it. My goal is NOT to be a "small-talk" queen but to be able to be better at it for those random management type meetings where I find myself talking to somebody's wife (gasp) and that sort of thing.



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25 May 2011, 12:13 pm

draelynn wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
draelynn wrote:
I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point


These conversations are not pointless. They just don't have the purpose of providing concrete information. The point of these conversations is to communicate a sense of community and inclusion. The specific words are irrelevant to what is actually being communicated.


But that kind of IS the point... nothing is being communicated to me and I am not communicating anything to them. This 'feel good' connection is entirely one way and, usually, I have no idea if I accomplished it or not. If they are reading something from this type of communication, it is all in their own head. It's not something I am conveying verbally or 'invisibly'. It is all affectation for their benefit. I get nothing from it personally. I do not feel included or part of the community because of it.


Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but just because I gain no immediate benefit from something does not mean that it is pointless. Assuming that it must have purpose for me or else it is without purpose is egocentric to the point of narcissism.

Additionally, simply not having the feeling of inclusion does not render such exchanges impotent. If I act like what is perceived to be an aloof prick, then future interactions will be influenced by this perception. It is in MY best interests to ensure that I don't create a negative impression of myself, even if engaging in small talk does not result in the immediate gratification that NTs gain. I can be part of a community, even I can not sense the feeling of belonging. I cannot be part of a community if I flatly reject the behaviors that are fundamental to its cohesion.


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draelynn
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25 May 2011, 12:59 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
draelynn wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
draelynn wrote:
I usually have 3 to 5 things I would rather be thinking about than expending energy trying to stay engaged in a conversation with no point


These conversations are not pointless. They just don't have the purpose of providing concrete information. The point of these conversations is to communicate a sense of community and inclusion. The specific words are irrelevant to what is actually being communicated.


But that kind of IS the point... nothing is being communicated to me and I am not communicating anything to them. This 'feel good' connection is entirely one way and, usually, I have no idea if I accomplished it or not. If they are reading something from this type of communication, it is all in their own head. It's not something I am conveying verbally or 'invisibly'. It is all affectation for their benefit. I get nothing from it personally. I do not feel included or part of the community because of it.


Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but just because I gain no immediate benefit from something does not mean that it is pointless. Assuming that it must have purpose for me or else it is without purpose is egocentric to the point of narcissism.

Additionally, simply not having the feeling of inclusion does not render such exchanges impotent. If I act like what is perceived to be an aloof prick, then future interactions will be influenced by this perception. It is in MY best interests to ensure that I don't create a negative impression of myself, even if engaging in small talk does not result in the immediate gratification that NTs gain. I can be part of a community, even I can not sense the feeling of belonging. I cannot be part of a community if I flatly reject the behaviors that are fundamental to its cohesion.


The line of mine you pointed out said "... a conversation with no point." I did not mean that the small talk was pointless, only that that type of conversation has no point aka doesn't convey information. Learning to make small talk is all about 'them'. Learning how to wile our way into their world on their terms. There is a need to do that for some people. I do it as matter of habit now because I needed to learn how to for my last position. I'm sure if your average person off the street read my description of small talk they would be confused, or possibly insulted.

I agree that my lack of feeling this inclusion does not preclude me from the benefits of it. That is the entire reason TO do it! Personally, I feel this is manipulative and, in essence, I'm lying. I am simply doing what I think they want in order to gain something. Most 'normal' people think that is just - weird. I just can't shake that feeling of lying. Of course, that's just me. I'm not denying that it is necessary. It's their game... gotta play by their rules or go home.



nemorosa
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25 May 2011, 1:02 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but just because I gain no immediate benefit from something does not mean that it is pointless. Assuming that it must have purpose for me or else it is without purpose is egocentric to the point of narcissism.


Surely it is up to the individual to decide what is pointless to THEM. I find small talk boring, tiresome and pointless. Others may well feel differently but that hardly makes those who don't agree egocentric.



draelynn
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25 May 2011, 1:08 pm

kfisherx wrote:
^^^THIS^^^

This game better damned well be applicable to random strangers 'cause that is why I am playing it. My goal is NOT to be a "small-talk" queen but to be able to be better at it for those random management type meetings where I find myself talking to somebody's wife (gasp) and that sort of thing.


By 'random strangers' I meant those people you may meet randomly on the street for a few moments and never see again, or only rarely. Work relationships are a different level. That '1 level up' would not only be appropriate but expected in those situations. The connection and there for the conversation with those people is intended to be more than what you would provide a 'random stranger'. I think those work level strangers would be more acquaintences - friend of a friend type thing.

Yes, all the labels are disconcerting but people really do seem to classify their relationships in distinct terms. If someone considered you a friend and you introduced them as an acquaintence, they would be highly insulted. In that same vein, if you give your bosses wife a 'how about this weather' shallow conversation she may be insulted because you are regarding her so shallowly. There is an expected level of connection there.

Don't sweat it - I'm sure your game master will get to the nitty gritty details further along!



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25 May 2011, 1:11 pm

nemorosa wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but just because I gain no immediate benefit from something does not mean that it is pointless. Assuming that it must have purpose for me or else it is without purpose is egocentric to the point of narcissism.


Surely it is up to the individual to decide what is pointless to THEM. I find small talk boring, tiresome and pointless. Others may well feel differently but that hardly makes those who don't agree egocentric.


This whole discussion sort of goes back to that HUGE discovery that I made a few weeks back. It was that my Doctor actually disclosed that he felt something after our game because he learned a little bit about me. NTs do get something from small talk in the form of an emotional charge sometimes. I have never felt this and the fact that is happens for them completely blows me away. That said, I acknowledge that it does happen and so will learn it to be a good citizen to their culture... Just like I would learn a foriegn Language if I was to live in a country with one. :)



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25 May 2011, 1:17 pm

draelynn wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
^^^THIS^^^

This game better damned well be applicable to random strangers 'cause that is why I am playing it. My goal is NOT to be a "small-talk" queen but to be able to be better at it for those random management type meetings where I find myself talking to somebody's wife (gasp) and that sort of thing.


By 'random strangers' I meant those people you may meet randomly on the street for a few moments and never see again, or only rarely. Work relationships are a different level. That '1 level up' would not only be appropriate but expected in those situations. The connection and there for the conversation with those people is intended to be more than what you would provide a 'random stranger'. I think those work level strangers would be more acquaintences - friend of a friend type thing.

Yes, all the labels are disconcerting but people really do seem to classify their relationships in distinct terms. If someone considered you a friend and you introduced them as an acquaintence, they would be highly insulted. In that same vein, if you give your bosses wife a 'how about this weather' shallow conversation she may be insulted because you are regarding her so shallowly. There is an expected level of connection there.

Don't sweat it - I'm sure your game master will get to the nitty gritty details further along!


No you aren't getting it. I can mostly do decently well with people at my work. Most of them are quirky too (as are most gifted people) and certainly they are forgiving of me. That said I am learning to work better with them (RE my discussions on flights/travel, etc) from the game. The REAL/original purpose of me coming to these sessions was for Executive Management type social functions. That is where I need to climb if I want to move into the next level at work. Imagine events where my coworkers bring their wives!! ! These creatures are NOT in my peer group yet because I am female, (rare in my field) they all want to talk to me. I have NOTHING to say to them and am awkward or rude as a result. This does not bode well for me. These people are the same (to me anyway) as a random person on the street....

It doesn't matter as you say. My coach will be able to help me figure these little bits out and keep me moving forward I think...



draelynn
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25 May 2011, 1:34 pm

kfisherx wrote:
No you aren't getting it. I can mostly do decently well with people at my work. Most of them are quirky too (as are most gifted people) and certainly they are forgiving of me. That said I am learning to work better with them (RE my discussions on flights/travel, etc) from the game. The REAL/original purpose of me coming to these sessions was for Executive Management type social functions. That is where I need to climb if I want to move into the next level at work. Imagine events where my coworkers bring their wives!! ! These creatures are NOT in my peer group yet because I am female, (rare in my field) they all want to talk to me. I have NOTHING to say to them and am awkward or rude as a result. This does not bode well for me. These people are the same (to me anyway) as a random person on the street....

It doesn't matter as you say. My coach will be able to help me figure these little bits out and keep me moving forward I think...


I don't think I explained that very well. You may consider the work wives to be on the same level as the kid at the store BUT their expectation of your interaction may higher. They wouldn't expect you to talk shop with them as you may with their spouses but they may expect the same level of social interaction that you have with their spouse. The kid at the store is a 'how's the weather' kind of stranger. The work wives are more the 'let's dish about our kids, what are you doing for the holidays' type stranger. There will be an expectation of a bit more personal interaction.

If it all seems like a minefield - yes, it is. I used to avoid work functions like the plague. My trick was to always catch up on the news before an event I couldn't avoid so I would have something to talk about. I rarely watch or read the news otherwise.



draelynn
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25 May 2011, 1:42 pm

kfisherx wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Surely it is up to the individual to decide what is pointless to THEM. I find small talk boring, tiresome and pointless. Others may well feel differently but that hardly makes those who don't agree egocentric.


This whole discussion sort of goes back to that HUGE discovery that I made a few weeks back. It was that my Doctor actually disclosed that he felt something after our game because he learned a little bit about me. NTs do get something from small talk in the form of an emotional charge sometimes. I have never felt this and the fact that is happens for them completely blows me away. That said, I acknowledge that it does happen and so will learn it to be a good citizen to their culture... Just like I would learn a foriegn Language if I was to live in a country with one. :)


As odd as it may seem - I was struck by your explanation this time around as 'Pavlovian'. NT's get a little oxytocin treat for their social behavior. I'm going to have to think on that because there is something - insidious - about that concept...



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25 May 2011, 8:26 pm

I think I understand what Draelynn means about it feeling dishonest, like lying; really, small talk is for the benefit of NT's who feel uncomfortable if a single second of silence is allowed to go by without someone talking. I have worked in retail quite a bit and often if you can't keep up a running stream of babble with a customer they feel uncomfortable and leave because of it. I'm not doing my job "relating to the customer". So I keep a little script that works with typical answers in my head, use it with all my customers, and change it up every once in a while. It's fake, I hate it, but it's what's expected and it's what I have to do to make the customer and my boss happy.



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25 May 2011, 10:29 pm

Rhiannon0828 wrote:
So I keep a little script that works with typical answers in my head, use it with all my customers, and change it up every once in a while. It's fake, I hate it, but it's what's expected and it's what I have to do to make the customer and my boss happy.


That's all small-talk really is most of the time, pre-scripted responses and answers, with maybe a little novelty now and then.