Do you think that virginia Tech killer Cho Seu was an Aspie?

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If they're borrowed, they're not quite novel.

What I said was that we're really good at taking ideas and theories, chopping them up, and putting them back together in different ways. What results can indeed be something nobody expected or anticipated, and I think this is what you guys who think "autistics are actually quite creative" are actually doing. You might call it "creative," but my definition of it is stricter. It's a synthesis of everything you've seen and heard of earlier, whether it's in different scoring methods, or different ways of assaying for something or keeping track of something. It didn't have to be strictly from a computer program, it could've been from a written survey, a test taken at a school, or anywhere else, and it's still borrowed. Just because nobody else before put the things together in the way you did doesn't necessarily make what you did 100% creative and novel. Point being that it's not completely brand-spanking new. The way this particular thing is put together might be new, but the individual parts themselves are not new. Learning to put things together in certain different ways is also a way of absorbing (read: borrowing) an idea. In a similar respect, engineering uses existing scientific principles in a variety of ways, but in itself does not extend the boundaries of our collective understanding of the basic science.

To the people who wrote that "autistics are quite creative" (paraphrasing): Based on your responses, I am sensing that there is a judgmental element in your reasoning, as though you think that being uncreative is undesirable. Perhaps it's because the word "creative" and "novel" have such positive connotations. Might be different to think of "new" and "creative" without so many of the associations. Just see them for what they are, without getting so defensive. I can be an intelligent engineer and not particularly creative, but that doesn't make me a bad person in any way.

To SteveK: by the way, there's no necessary correlation between intelligence and creativity. One can be quite smart and not come up with anything new at all. They don't necessarily go hand in hand.

What I meant was that other people have borrowed the ideas FROM me. I didn't borrow them. Naturally, I used my knowledge from my engineering education in many instances when I put together my operating system, but I can tell you that not a single line of code is borrowed from anywhere. I think I can safely state that because my OS is written entirely in assembly language, and using an unusual memory model, all code have been written more or less from scratch.



That might be true, but isn't everybody doing this? Any invention you could possibly do today would necesarily need to build on pre-existing concepts.

Also, the Neanderthal theory probably is as novel and creative as anything can get in the area of autism-research. There are a few people that had somehow similar ideas before, but I was unaware of this at the time of the invention. My extreme determination, which is an important element of success for creative ideas, have been a great asset both for the OS project and for the Neanderthal theory. For instance, I started on the OS project already in 1988, and I'm still working on it from time to time. I will hardly leave the Neanderthal theory and Aspie-quiz before they both have been published in peer-reviewed journals and are well-known in the scientific community. At that point I might lose interest.

Such a society would be like Russia or the other former Soviet republics in the turbulence following the collapse of the Soviet Union (massive public corruption, raw grabs for power and property, chaos) or like the mafia or a similar criminal organization (rule by fear and tightly delineated social hierarchies with subordinates waiting for a moment of weakness to secure the reins of power for themselves). Paranoia would prevail as the rule of the day would be every man for himself. Society would essentially cease to be because the psychopathic personality plays a niche role by preying on the inherent trust and compassion of the rest (there's an excellent essay by Mealey on the evolutionary role of psychopathic (sociopathic as she calls it) traits).

What do they expect when most kids grow up on 'shooters' or shooting games? dunno if the was he/wasn't he aspie is relevent here. People in general are subjected to so much visual violence passed off as games or entertainment, it's bound to influence behaviour.

Altogether now: SOCIETY IS TO BLAME!

He was an A1 NUTJOB!

That being the case:

I don't care what he was apart from that, just like I don't care if we had the same shoe size or the same birthday.

Too true!

Lt. Col. Grossman states that just as the military increases the killing rate of soldiers in combat, our culture today is doing the same thing to our children. He cited evidence that during World War II, only 15 to 20% of the individual riflemen could bring themselves to fire at an exposed enemy soldier. He stated that when the military became aware of this so-called "problem," they fixed it. By the Korean War, around 55% of the soldiers were willing to fire to kill. By Vietnam, the rate rose to over 90%. The training methods the military used to accomplish this are the same methods being used by the media industry today to train our children to kill. They are brutalization, classical conditioning, operant conditioning and role modeling.

Interesting comments by Steven King:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html

Interesting debate going on here...


DEBATE

I think not. The most recent reports are all that he really never spoke, from the beginning, and it looks to me like either some other place on the autistic spectrum or another (probably) undiagnosed mental illness. Either way, the man obviously experienced a lot of pain over the years, and while I'd never come close to excusing his actions, his family/school should have intervened many years ago, and that might have prevented this from ever happening.

Rochelle made a really good point there when she said that people are more likely to harm the mentally ill than the mentally ill are to harm someone else. Been there, done that, got the ripped and bloody T-shirt. Got yelled at by dear old Mum for getting my shirt ruined too, as if I had a choice.

And speaking of "raising alarms" with his writing, I read those two plays. They aren't particularly violent but what they reveal are some disturbing insights into the behavior of adults as experienced by Mr. Cho. His Mr. Brownstone was a parasite, consisted of a large amount of human waste, was a rapist, and also stole from his students. That represents, with a varying amount of literal truth, a very common stereotype of the incompetent American teacher. I think that people were more disturbed about what Cho could see than what Cho might do. What he saw was along the lines of things that people see as appropriate to make a violent response to.

NPD!! !


What is narcissistic personality disorder?

Psychiatrists were unanimous in their assessment of Blackwell
Brian Blackwell, the 19-year-old who killed his parents and then went on a holiday financed by their credit cards, was diagnosed as suffering from narcissistic personality disorder.
The disorder is named after the mythical character Narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection.

It results in the sufferer being obsessed with the fantasy of unlimited success, power, brilliance and ideal love and beauty.

Mental health groups say it is rare that the disorder leads to murder.

But sufferers can be confrontational, believe their problems are unique, and fly into a rage if their inflated sense of self-worth is challenged.

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Introduction
Narcissistic personality disorder is a serious emotional disturbance characterized by a grandiose, or extremely exaggerated, sense importance. Individuals with this disorder lack empathy for other people but need constant admiration from them.

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders, all of which reflect an inability in the affected person to accept the demands and limitations of the world. These disorders may regularly interfere with a person's behavior and interactions with family, friends or co-workers. Among the other personality disorders are paranoid personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.

Although people with narcissistic personality disorder have an exaggerated image of their own importance, they have vulnerable self-esteems and often don't like themselves. Therefore, they seek attention that confirms their grandiosity. When feedback doesn't validate their exaggerated image, they tend to lash out or withdraw.

Narcissistic personality disorder, which is less common than other personality disorders, is estimated to affect less than 1 percent of the general population. Some studies indicate that it's more common among men. The primary treatment is psychotherapy.









The serial bully displays behaviour congruent with many of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Characterised by a pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, people with narcissistic personality disorder overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful and pretentious, whilst correspondingly underestimating and devaluing the achievements and accomplishments of others.

Often the narcissist will fraudulently claim to have qualifications or experience or affiliations or associations which they don't have or aren't entitled to. Belief in superiority, inflating their self-esteem to match that of senior or important people with whom they associate or identify, insisting on having the "top" professionals or being affiliated with the "best" institutions, but criticising the same people who disappoint them are also common features of narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissists react angrily to criticism and when rejected, the narcissist will often denounce the profession which has rejected them (usually for lack of competence or misdeed) but simultaneously and paradoxically represent themselves as belonging to the profession they are vilifying.

Fragile self-esteem, a need for constant attention and admiration, fishing for compliments (often with great charm), an expectation of superior entitlement, expecting others to defer to them, and a lack of sensitivity especially when others do not react in the expected manner, are also hallmarks of the disorder. Greed, expecting to receive before and above the needs of others, overworking those around them, and forming romantic (sic) or sexual relationships for the purpose of advancing their purpose or career, abusing special privileges and squandering extra resources also feature.

People with narcissistic personality disorder also have difficulty recognizing the needs and feelings of others, and are dismissive, contemptuous and impatient when others share or discuss their concerns or problems. They are also oblivious to the hurtfulness of their behaviour or remarks, show an emotional coldness and a lack of reciprocal interest, exhibit envy (especially when others are accorded recognition), have an arrogant, disdainful and patronizing attitude, and are quick to blame and criticise others when their needs and expectations are not met.

The DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:

A. A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:

1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes


Prevalence, age, and gender features
According to DSM IV, the prevalence of NPD is less than 1% of the general population, though it manifests itself in 2-16% of psychiatric outpatients. Studies have not conclusively demonstrated any ethnic, social, cultural, economic, genetic, or professional predilection to NPD[4]. However, evidence for heritability greater than that of other personality disorders has been reported[5].

Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed. The disorder occurs 50 to 75 percent more frequently in men than in women. It has been suggested that NPD may be exacerbated by the onset of aging and the physical, mental, and occupational restrictions it imposes[4].


[edit] Clinical experience
Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity [6]. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder. NPD is considered to result from a person’s belief that he or she is flawed in a way that makes the person fundamentally unacceptable to others [7]. This belief is held below the person’s conscious awareness; such a person would typically deny thinking such a thing if questioned. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation they imagine would follow if others recognized their supposedly defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ view of them and behavior towards them.

The common use of the term “narcissism” refers to some of the ways people defend themselves against this narcissistic dynamic: a concern with one’s own physical and social image, a preoccupation with one’s own thoughts and feelings, and a sense of grandiosity. There are, however, many other behaviors that can stem from narcissistic concerns, such as immersion in one’s own affairs to the exclusion of others, an inability to empathize with others’ experience, interpersonal rigidity, an insistence that one’s opinions and values are “right,” and a tendency to be easily offended and take things personally.

Psychologists commonly believe that pathological narcissism results from an impairment in the quality of the person’s relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy, empathic attachment to them. This results in the child conceiving of themselves as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe that he or she has some defect of personality which makes them unvalued and unwanted [6].

To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of other’s needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen [4]. They may also demand certain behavior from their children because they see the children as extensions of themselves, and need the children to represent them in the world in ways that meet the parents’ emotional needs [8]. (For example, a narcissistic father who was a lawyer demanded that his son, who had always been treated as the “favorite” in the family, enter the legal profession as well. When the son chose another career, the father rejected and disparaged him.)

These traits will lead overly narcissistic parents to be very intrusive in some ways, and entirely neglectful in others. The children are punished if they do not respond adequately to the parents’ needs. This punishment may take a variety of forms, including physical abuse, angry outbursts, blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it takes, the purpose of the punishment is to enforce compliance with the parents’ narcissistic needs[8].

People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight, real or imagined [9]. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.

There is a broad spectrum of pathologically narcissistic personalities, styles, and reactions -- from the very mild, reactive and transient, to the severe and inflexible narcissistic personality disorder.

Though individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements [10]. With narcissistic personality disorder, the person's perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.

The interpersonal relationships of patients with NPD are typically impaired due to the individual's lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, and constant need for attention. They frequently select as mates, and engender in their children, "co-narcissism," which is a term coined to refer to a co-dependent personality style similar to co-alcoholism and co-dependency [8]. Co-narcissists organize themselves around the needs of others. They feel responsible for others, accept blame readily, are eager to please, defer to other's opinions, and fear being considered selfish if they act assertively.


[edit] True self, false self
Alexander Lowen describes pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder, as "the denial of the true self"[11]

Masterson describes the creation of a false self as:

when a young child fails to separate her own self-image from that of her mother. This happens roughly between the ages of two and three, often because of a parent’s own emotional problems. A mother’s encouragement of a child’s self-assertion is vital. When the mother suffers from low self-esteem, she has difficulty encouraging her child’s emerging self. The child experiences this absence as a loss of self, creating feelings of abandonment that lead to depression. To deal with the depression, the child gives up efforts to support her emerging self. Instead, she relies on her mother’s approval to maintain the esteem of a "false self." [12]

[edit] Narcissistic personality disorder and shame
It has been suggested that Narcissistic personality disorder may be related to defences against shame. [13]

Gabbard suggested NPD could be broken down into two subtypes[14]. He saw the "oblivious" subtype as being grandiose, arrogant and thick skinned and the "hypervigilant" subtype as easily hurt, oversensitive and ashamed.

He suggested that the oblivious subtype presents a large, powerful, grandiose self to be admired, envied and appreciated, which is the antithesis of the weakened and internalised self that hides in a generic state of shame, in order to fend off devaluation, whereas the hypervigilant subtype, far from fending off devaluation, is obsessed with it, neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers.


[edit] Treatment and prognosis
Though there is controversy in the profession, most psychiatrists and psychologists regard NPD as a relatively stable condition when experienced as a primary disorder [8]. James F. Masterson's A Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders: The Masterson Approach outlines a prominent approach to healing NPD, while [6] discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases.

It is unusual for people to seek therapy for NPD. Subconscious fears of exposure of inadequacy are often met with defensive disdain of therapeutic processes [15], [16]

Pharmacotherapy is rarely used, though there is one unofficially documented observation of therapeutic response with the atypical anti-depressant bupropion (Wellbutrin). [1]

Because NPD contributes to negative, stressful life experiences characterized by the mental health field as "clinically significant distress" or "impairment", co-existing conditions of depression and anxiety are typical, and can ameliorate with pharmaceutical interventions.[citation needed] NPD sufferers are more likely to seek such treatment from primary care physicians for relief of immediate symptoms of distress / depression.[citation needed]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy.[jma: NPD first appeared in DSM-III in 1980; before that time there had been no formal diagnostic description. Additionally, there is considerable overlap between personality disorders and clinicians tend to diagnose mixes of two or more. Grandiosity is a special case, but lack of empathy and exploitative interpersonal relations are not unique to NPD, nor is the need to be seen as special or unique. The differential diagnosis of NPD is made on the absence of specific gross behaviors. Borderline Personality Disorder has several conspicuous similarities to NPD, but BPD is characterized by self-injury and threatened or attempted suicide, whereas narcissists are rarely self-harming in this way. BPD may include psychotic breaks, and these are uncharacteristic of NPD but not unknown. The need for constant attention is also found in Histrionic Personality Disorder, but HPD and BPD are both strongly oriented towards relationships, whereas NPD is characterized by aloofness and avoidance of intimacy. Grandiosity is unique to NPD among personality disorders, but it is found in other psychiatric illnesses. Psychopaths display pathological narcissism, including grandiosity, but psychopathy is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence to get what they want, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes; the narcissists I've known personally are, in fact, averse to physical contact with others, though they will occasionally strike out in an impulse of rage. It has been found that court-ordered psychotherapy for psychopaths actually increases their recidivism rate; apparently treatment teaches psychopaths new ways to exploit other people. Bipolar illness also contains strong elements of grandiosity. See more on grandiosity and empathy and its lack below.]The disorder begins by early adulthood and is indicated by at least five of the following:




Translation: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior that shows up in thinking and behavior in a lot of different situations and activities. People with NPD won't (or can't) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work or when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves? none of my narcissists ever admit to being distressed by their own behavior -- they always blame other people for any problems). This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood.
NPD interferes with people's functioning in their occupations and in their relationships:

Mild impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in occasional minor problems, but the person is generally doing pretty well.

Moderate impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) missing days from work, household duties, or school, (b) significant performance problems as a wage-earner, homemaker, or student, (c) frequently avoiding or alienating friends, (d) significant risk of harming self or others (frequent suicidal preoccupation; often neglecting family, or frequently abusing others or committing criminal acts).

Severe impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) staying in bed all day, (b) totally alienating all friends and family, (c) severe risk of harming self or others (failing to maintain personal hygiene; persistent danger of suicide, abuse, or crime).

None of us are qualified to diagnose people we don't know, whether they're a killer or a genius. Please, let's stop trying.

Last edited by martin_nyc on 22 Apr 2007, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

School Shootings

Healthy narcissism is common in adolescents. Their narcissistic defenses help them cope with the anxieties and fears engendered by the demands and challenges of modern society: leaving home, going to college, sexual performance, marriage, and other rites of passage. There is nothing wrong with healthy narcissism. It sustains the adolescent in a critical time of his life and shields him or her from emotional injuries.

Still, in certain circumstances, healthy narcissism can transform into a malignant form, destructive to self and to others.

Adolescents who are consistently mocked and bullied by peers, role models, and socialization agents (such as teachers, coaches, and parents) are prone to find succor in grandiose fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience. To sustain these personal myths, they may resort to violence and counter-bullying.

The same applies to youths who feel deprived, underestimated, discriminated against, or at a dead end. They are likely to evoke narcissistic defenses to fend off the constant hurt and to achieve self-sufficient and self-contained emotional gratification.

Finally, pampered adolescents, who serve as mere extensions of their smothering parents and their unrealistic expectations are equally liable to develop grandiosity and a sense of entitlement incommensurate with their real-life achievements. When frustrated they become aggressive.

This propensity to other-directed violence is further exacerbated by what Lasch called "The Culture of Narcissism". We live in a civilization which condones and positively encourages malignant individualism, bad hero worship (remember "Born Killers"?), exploitativeness, inane ambitiousness, and the atomization of social structures and support networks. Alienation is a hallmark of our age, not only among youngsters.

When societies turn anomic, under both external and internal pressures (terrorism, crime, civil unrest, religious strife, economic crises, immigration, widespread job insecurity, war, rampant corruption, and so on), narcissists tend to become violent. This is because communities in anomic states offer little by way of externally-imposed impulse control and regulation, penal discipline, and rewards for conformity and 'good behavior". Narcissists in such settings of disintegration become serial and mass killers on a greater (Hitler) or smaller scale.

Also wasn't this lad at columbine who they said was AS meant to be under the influence of peer pressure. I thought my AS made me immune to peer pressure not so for the narcissist read this:

"The other way to neutralize a vindictive narcissist is to offer him continued narcissistic supply until the war is over and won by you. Dazzled by the drug of narcissistic supply – the narcissist immediately becomes tamed, forgets his vindictiveness and triumphantly takes over his "property" and "territory".

Under the influence of narcissistic supply, the narcissist is unable to tell when he is being manipulated. He is blind, dumb and deaf to all but the song of the NS sirens. You can make a narcissist do ANYTHING by offering, withholding, or threatening to withhold narcissistic supply (adulation, admiration, attention, sex, awe, subservience, etc.)."