Do you think that virginia Tech killer Cho Seu was an Aspie?

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Sounds like NT behavior to me, Rimmer.

Just searched on google under cho narcissist I'm not alone in my opinion

TIME

"From everything we know so far, however, Cho was suffering from none of these things. Any wounds that he carried were deeper, psychic ones — and in all likelihood, he shared them with most of the mass shooters who have gone before him. In many ways, the profile of the mass killer looks a lot like the profile of the clinical narcissist, and that's a very bad thing. Never mind the disorder's name, narcissism is a condition defined mostly by disablingly low self-esteem, requiring the sufferer to seek almost constant recognition and reward. When the world and the people in it don't respond as they should, narcissists are not just enraged but flat-out mystified. Cho's multimedia postmortem package exuded narcissistic exhibitionism, and the words he spoke into the camera left no doubt as to what he believed — or wanted to believe — was his own significance. "Thanks to you," he said in one of his many indictments of his victims, "I die like Jesus Christ."

So who wounded him and why do they not bear responsibility for the attacks?

People say he was diagnosed Autistic so obviously you can see why people might think that!


PS I did not write this!

Found it here http://www.deepwave.net/eileen/ Somebody called Eileen wrote it.


Virginia Tech shooter Cho was diagnosed some years ago as autistic. But his illness seems a closer match to Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which I talked about in my previous post. It’s more likely he was afflicted with a combination of mental illnesses.

Here’s a series of Q&As and some info on NPD, found at Dr Sam Vaknin’s website. Dr Vaknin is the author of a book on abusive narcissists and psychopaths called "Malignant Self Love". Gripping stuff.

Are narcissists vindictive? Do they stalk and harass?
Narcissists are often vindictive and they often stalk and harass.

Have you ever encountered someone with NPD who had extreme violent behaviour as a result of the disorder?
It is difficult to say whether as a direct result of the disorder or of other psychological dynamics but, yes, I came across people who were either diagnosed with NPD, or struck me as suffering from NPD and who were also violent. They inhabited the seam between the narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders (between pathological narcissism and psychopathy).

If so, what often triggered this behaviour? Could you perhaps provide some examples?
Invariably, violent behaviour was triggered by frustration, perceived to be a threat to the integrity and veracity of the False Self. In other words, if the narcissist could not achieve gratification, or was criticised, or encountered resistance and disagreement – he tended to turn violent. He felt that his grandiose fantasies were being undermined and that his sense of entitlement due to his uniqueness is challenged. This often happens in prison where the atmosphere is paranoid and every slight, real or imaginary, is magnified to the point of narcissistic injury.

How easy is it for most narcissists to be pushed into violence?
Pathological narcissism rarely appears in isolation. It is usually co-morbid with other personality or mental health disorders. Substance abuse and other forms of reckless behaviour are common. The best predictor is past violence. But it is safe to say that narcissists who also abuse alcohol or drugs and who have been diagnosed with psychopathy or the antisocial personality disorder are very likely to be consistently violent in different settings.

After committing a violent act, how will the narcissist deal with his/her actions?
The narcissist has alloplastic defences. He does not accept responsibility for his actions. He accuses others or the world at large for provoking or aggravating his outbursts of violent behaviour. He feels immune to the consequences of his actions by virtue of his inbred superiority and entitlement. Narcissists are also mildly dissociative. They sometimes go through depersonalisation and derealisation. In other words, some narcissists sort of "watch themselves" and their life from the outside, as one would a movie. Such narcissists do not feel fully and truly responsible for their acts of violence. "I don’t know what came over me" is their frequent refrain.

Do you know of any instances where a person with NPD has murdered as a result of his/her outbursts?
Many serial killers have been diagnosed as narcissists, but I personally am not acquainted with one.

What kind of background shapes a violent narcissist? Is there any difference to that of a narcissist with less violent tendencies? Is there such a thing?
There is no research pertaining to this question. From my experience, violent narcissists come from dysfunctional and abusive families. There are a million ways to abuse. To love too much is to abuse. It is tantamount to treating someone as an extension, an object, or an instrument of gratification. To be over-protective, not to respect privacy, to be brutally honest, with a sadistic sense of humour, or consistently tactless – is to abuse. To expect too much, to denigrate, to ignore – are all modes of abuse. There is physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The list is long. Narcissists who have been exposed in childhood to abusive behaviours by parents, caregivers, teachers, other role models, or even by peers would tend to propagate the abuse and behave aggressively, if not violently.

What about the victims of crimes committed by narcissists? Is it often someone they know?
Not necessarily. Any person – known to the narcissist or not – who is perceived by the narcissist to be a source of frustration is in danger of becoming the victim of violence. If you disagree with the narcissist, criticise him, or deny him the unfettered and instantaneous fulfilment of his wishes – you become his enemy and the target of his unwelcome attentions.

Are the treatments for violent narcissists different from those of non-violent narcissists?
Only in adding specific medication to the mix of talk therapy and medicines which are used in treating NPD.

School shootings
Healthy narcissism is common in adolescents. Their narcissistic defenses help them cope with the anxieties and fears engendered by the demands and challenges of modern society: leaving home, going to college, sexual performance, marriage, and other rites of passage. There is nothing wrong with healthy narcissism. It sustains the adolescent in a critical time of his life and shields him or her from emotional injuries.

Still, in certain circumstances, healthy narcissism can transform into a malignant form, destructive to self and to others. Adolescents who are consistently mocked and bullied by peers, role models, and socialisation agents (such as teachers, coaches, and parents) are prone to find succor in grandiose fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience. To sustain these personal myths, they may resort to violence and counter-bullying.

The same applies to youths who feel deprived, underestimated, discriminated against, or at a dead end. They are likely to evoke narcissistic defenses to fend off the constant hurt and to achieve self-sufficient and self-contained emotional gratification.

Finally, pampered adolescents, who serve as mere extensions of their smothering parents and their unrealistic expectations, are equally liable to develop grandiosity and a sense of entitlement incommensurate with their real-life achievements. When frustrated they become aggressive.

This propensity to other-directed violence is further exacerbated by what Lasch called “The Culture of Narcissism”. We live in a civilisation which condones and positively encourages malignant individualism, bad hero worship (remember "Born Killers"?), exploitativeness, inane ambitiousness, and the atomisation of social structures and support networks. Alienation is a hallmark of our age, not only among youngsters.

When societies turn anomic, under both external and internal pressures (terrorism, crime, civil unrest, religious strife, economic crises, immigration, widespread job insecurity, war, rampant corruption, and so on), narcissists tend to become violent. This is because communities in anomic states offer little by way of externally-imposed impulse control and regulation, penal discipline, and rewards for conformity and “good behaviour”. Narcissists in such settings of disintegration become serial and mass killers on a greater or smaller scale.

Narcissistic rage
Most narcissists are prone to be angry. Their anger is always sudden, raging, frightening and without an apparent provocation by an outside agent. It would seem that narcissists are in a CONSTANT state of rage, which is effectively controlled most of the time. It manifests itself only when the narcissist’s defences are down, incapacitated, or adversely affected by circumstances, inner or external.

Pathological anger is neither coherent, not externally induced. It emanates from the inside and it is diffuse, directed at the "world" and at "injustice" in general. The narcissist is capable of identifying the IMMEDIATE cause of his fury. Still, upon closer scrutiny, the cause is likely to be found lacking and the anger excessive, disproportionate, and incoherent.

It might be more accurate to say that the narcissist is expressing (and experiencing) TWO layers of anger, simultaneously and always. The first layer, of superficial ire, is indeed directed at an identified target, the alleged cause of the eruption. The second layer, however, incorporates the narcissist’s self-aimed wrath.

Narcissistic rage has two forms:

I. Explosive – The narcissist flares up, attacks everyone in his immediate vicinity, causes damage to objects or people, and is verbally and psychologically abusive.
II. Pernicious or Passive-Aggressive (P/A) – The narcissist sulks, gives the silent treatment, and is plotting how to punish the transgressor and put her in her proper place. These narcissists are vindictive and often become stalkers. They harass and haunt the objects of their frustration. They sabotage and damage the work and possessions of people whom they regard to be the sources of their mounting wrath.

[UPDATE]
Cho’s background
Here’s a summary of Cho’s home and school life based on reports I’ve read in the papers. A caveat: Never accept as gospel everything you read in the papers or elsewhere.

He was bullied and taunted in high school.
He stalked his varsity mates and took pictures under his desk.
He came to be known as "The Question Mark" after scrawling the punctuation mark on an attendance sheet on the first day of a literature class. -> attention-seeking behaviour?
He wrote plays with violent plots. -> possibly attention-seeking, but also showed his preoccupation with "the injustice of it all"; anger was markedly directed at two characters - a father and professor

His victims covered the spectrum of nationalities, not just white Americans. -> violence with no racial bias, targeted at "rich, obnoxious, talented kids" in general? Seems the class he took out had many high-fliers - not sure he knew.
He had a history of violent behaviour (punched his sister during a fight). -> a brooding passive-aggressive?
According to his father’s boss, his father was very proud of his sister (a Princeton graduate), and "would often boast about his daughter", but neither of his parents talked about him. -> seeds of "injustice" sown; the high-achieving sister, who gets all the glory, vs the misunderstood, to-be-concealed "black sheep". Genes - the greatest connector AND the greatest divider. Not all siblings have the same abilities, and this boy had a psychological problem even at a young age through no fault of his own. How was he socialised? (The Nature-Nurture debate.) His parents, coming from a "closed culture", might not have known how to deal with his "disability". But in reality, no one can ever competently deal with another person, and this guy was miswired.
Within his family, Cho did not appear to have a lot of supervision, relatives and associates of the family. His parents, poor immigrants, were always busy at work. Money was always tight. One description of his father went: "He was working too hard, just working, working." To live the American dream and, of course, to give his kids a better future. The irony sucks, doesn’t it?
A pastor at a Korean church once advised Cho’s mother to take him to a doctor to check for autism. The mother was said to have disagreed, "but prayed in church for her son to crawl out of his shell". Prayer?? Sometimes all you need is common sense.

Minute ramble
It’s a messed-up world we live in. Mountain people live far happier lives, I think. Do they experience stress? Constantly worry about their kids and future, or about being rammed down by stressed-out taxi drivers? Do they start fights after "staring incidents"? Do they strive to live within 2km of a "good school"? Does the term "copycat killer" mean anything to them? Do they know what’s Blahnik? They know less, so they need less. Comparison is the root of all evil. And the gap everywhere is just getting wider. Don’t give these people the Internet. Don’t give them cable. Don’t destroy their happiness.


Fri 20 Apr 2007
Did Cho Seung-Hui suffer from pathological narcissism?
Posted at 2:31 pm by Eileen under Uncategorized
[2] Comments
Paranoid Schizophrenia? Depression?

The homemade video showing a sinister Cho brandishing weapons and chanting a hate-filled rant, has definitely shed some light on his mental condition.






I think this mass murderer, who turned a gun on over 30 innocent people, and then on himself, could have been suffering from a condition known as narcissistic personality disorder, among other psychiatric conditions. Drawing on available psychotherapy literature, culled from various sources, here’s why I think so.

First, consider what he did, and the statements of those who had personal encounters with him. Next, mark his words:

“You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.”

“I didn’t have to do this. I could have left, I could have fled, but no, I will no longer run. If not for me, for my children, for my brothers and sisters… I did it for them.”

“Do you know what it feels like to be spit on your face and have trash shoved down your throat? Do you know what it feels like to dig your own grave?”

“You just loved crucifying me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terrorising my heart and ripping my soul all the time.”

“You have vandalised my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic, bored life you were extinguishing.”

“Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and impaled upon a cross and left to bleed to death for your amusement? You have never felt a single ounce of pain your whole life."

"Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can, just because you can? You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats, your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs, your trust fund wasn’t enough…"

"When the time came I did it, I had to."

Narcissistic personality disorder

Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterised by an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one’s self. The cause of this disorder is unknown. Narcissistic personality disorder usually begins by early adulthood and is marked by disregard for the feelings of others, grandiosity, obsessive self-interest, and the pursuit of primarily selfish goals.

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders, all of which reflect an inability in the affected person to accept the demands and limitations of the world. These disorders may regularly interfere with a person’s behaviour and interactions with family, friends or co-workers. Among the other personality disorders are paranoid personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.

Although people with narcissistic personality disorder have an exaggerated image of their own importance, they have vulnerable self-esteems and often don’t like themselves. Therefore, they seek attention that confirms their grandiosity. When feedback doesn’t validate their exaggerated image, they tend to lash out or withdraw. Narcissistic personality disorder, which is less common than other personality disorders, is estimated to affect less than 1 percent of the general population. Some studies indicate that it’s more common among men. The primary treatment is psychotherapy.

Pathological narcissism

A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

Reacts to criticism with feelings of rage, shame, or humiliation
Takes advantage of others to achieve own goals
Has feelings of self-importance
Exaggerates achievements and talents
Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
Has unreasonable expectations of favourable treatment
Requires constant attention and admiration
Lacks empathy
Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder may come across as conceited or snobbish. They often monopolise conversation. They may belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior. When they don’t receive the special treatment to which they feel entitled, they may become very impatient or angry. People with narcissistic personality disorder tend to seek out individuals whom they perceive as equal to their own self-image or to whom they attribute the same special talents and qualities they see in themselves. They may insist on having "the best" of everything — car, athletic club or social circles.

Their personal relationships and interactions are driven by the need for admiration and praise. Consequently, people with narcissistic personality disorder value others primarily according to how well those individuals affirm their unrealistic self-image. This limited value of others usually means that people with the disorder aren’t interested in or aren’t capable of perceiving the feelings or needs of others. They may take advantage of other people to make themselves look as good as they imagine. On the other hand, seeking admiration also makes people with narcissistic personality disorder vulnerable to criticism. If someone criticises an individual’s contribution to a project at work, for example, he or she will perceive this comment as an assault on an image that needs to be protected at all costs and may respond with feelings of shame, humiliation or sadness or may express rage, disdain or defensive behaviours.

The shy narcissist

Some specialists have described individuals diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder as shy narcissists, closet narcissists or deflated narcissists.

People with narcissistic personality disorder may have other psychological impairments, such as bipolar disorder or depressive disorder.

They may also have:

Suicidal thoughts
Impaired interpersonal and familial relationships
Chronic dysphoria (feeling unwell or unhappy)
Emotionally abusive behaviours
If a friend or family member exhibits persistent narcissistic behaviours that disrupt work or relationships, you might suggest that the person see a doctor to discuss how to cope more effectively with criticism or emotional problems. It’s unlikely, however, that you’ll be able to convince a person with narcissistic personality disorder to seek help to correct the narcissistic behaviours or the person’s unrealistic self-image.

"Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can, just because you can? You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats, your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs, your trust fund wasn’t enough…"

This is a very good point and I have had to live with this problem often enough.

So is a "narcissist" someone who thinks that he is entitled to the rights of a human being when his classmates have decided that he is not?

Old Boy, anyone?

He was no narcissist. narcissist is probably one of the rarest personality disorders.

Okay because that blame is shared between so many different people collectively they are to blame but none of them killed anybody, so they never really did anything that bad. People get bullied every day are you saying that bullying Cho is a worse action than bullying somebody else simply because Cho goes on to kill alot of people?

Everybody who has ever mistreated anybody knows that their victim could equally have done this, it is a case of "there but for the grace of god go I" for most people. So therefore most people have 2 options accept a portion of the blame themselves or attach it entirely to Cho...

Or an individual who did something specifically terrible to Cho which they can say they would never do (no information is available to say if Cho was abused as a child or something like that to my knowledge but if that emerges a good portion of the blame will then shift to the abuser).

First and foremost, I suspect he was wounded very deeply by his parents. No one knows the story of his early childhood.

[spoil]

Oh and I suppose mass murders who kill almost 40 people and then top themselves are common?

There are loads of undiagnosed with NPD. After all who is gonna admit to being a narcissist? Plus 1% isn't that the same as AS?

Are you sure m8?

Cho believed it was his right to commit mass homicide.

"Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can, just because you can? You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats, your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs, your trust fund wasn’t enough…"

Water is a human right

A Merc is not a human right

Last edited by Acerimmer1 on 22 Apr 2007, 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Actually it is more the case that people are incorrectly being diagnosed as narcissist even GAD (Generalised Anxiety Disorder). It is less than 1%.

Maybe I should have been clearer. I don't think he is a narcissist because it doesn't fit his behaviour. It just happens to be very rare too. Yes narcissists would never admit they have a problem. They are essentially untreatable.

Okay. Well I don't think that rarity is an issue since the act is so rare. We are either saying he has a single rare condition or a rare combination of less rare conditions, isn't that the case?

Please explain why you think it does not fit his behaviour?

Narcissist have a focus on themselves like many other conditions. They wouldn't admit to themselves that they are flawed even though they would fundamentally believe it. They like to show and believe that they are special. I can see how you can think he did this because of his reference to Jesus Christ. Though Cho was more trying to get across that he was tortured or provoked into it. Not something a narcissist would ever admit to, that would show that they are week. Weakness and narcissism are opposites. Cho also showed that he identified with several mystical and real people that he considered to have been persecuted however illogical). In his mind were bits of reality mixed with delusion that could not be necessarily attributed to any context whatsoever. He appear no to be talking to anyone specifically in his video. He didn't have a clear idea of his victims, even though it was premeditated.

I did think he was a sociopath. But now because of the out of context delusions I believe he was possibly schizophrenic. I know two schizophrenics (non paranoid type) They have this same out of the blue no context delusions. They can get confused in a similar way to how cho appeared in the video. Anxiety, etc can sometimes considered irrational but it is derived from some sort of real context. These delusions in contrast come out of nowhere and can hit at any point. It is a mixture of reality and non-reality normally. They can be recurring and build up, but in between they can think completely differently or not. It is pretty awful. Btw schizophrenia is not always as obvious as voices that is a stereotype. They don't much rest from it, it can be exhausting. Also this is the age that schizophrenia clearly becomes noticeable and was the same age it was noticed in my cousin. Also childhood schizophrenia is often misdiagnosed as autism because it seems similar then but is completely different later.

This New York Times article seems to indicate paranoid schizophrenia rather then autism, although a newspaper article isn't a perfect source. I suppose he might have met both diagnoses.