just a word of advice

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That guy has a tendency to say things that are out there. Did you notice how many people put him in his place on that thread? I'm not saying that the attitude can't be found here. It's just that few really take it seriously.

I'm not trying to be psycho here, but I do look at people's ages to see what kind of maturity level I'm dealing with, and I remember you being my age (which is 30), but then I noticed it said today that you are 32. So then I'm thinking what must of happened was that you were 31 and I rounded down to my age, so I checked to see if you had a birthday recently and just noticed it's today.... so....

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

That kind of sounds like what a teenager would say, irregardless of being NT or a AS.



They're are either more charismatic or a big BSer, or both. I don't think sucess in life should be determined by charisma or by BSing skills, but unfortunately it "works" in the short term, although a simply charismatic indivual who lacks the skills required will be harmed less in the long term than a BSer who does the same thing, a BSer will have the crap hit the fan and things will get bad for them. Quality is better than quantity.



Agreed.



I think people make asinine assumptions about NTs is because NT is just used as a super-cluster grouping word ranging from good hard-working people and personality disordered d-bags and d-bagettes. That's why I use the term "NT" and "Normie", the parenthesis is to infer a sarcastic quality when I'm refering to people I don't consider true NTs.

Yes, I completely agree. Also, these people have a tendency to be overly dramatic. They often say these things to see what kinds of responses they will get. I won't call it trolling, per se, but there is an element to it, I think. Not in all cases, but certainly in some.


Wow! And this isn't even Facebook, when you are essentially notified of everyone's birthday. Thanks for noticing!

Firstly, I know there is not a majority of people who share this anti-NT sentiment. The reason why I am debating with you is I don't think it's a good thing to make excuses for prejudice. If someone were to say whites can think faster, process data better, adapt quicker, and function better than blacks can, that would be racism. Just as if someone were to say that whites are superior to blacks. Why is it different just because it is an aspie saying that aspies are superior to NT's? When you say 'they don't really mean that for all NT's', essentially what you are doing is making an excuse for their prejudice. People need to be held accountable for what they say. When they make generalisations about a group of people and use that for prejudice, they need to be called out for being prejudiced.



It is a great thing if someone sees the error in their thought and changes their mind, but I don't think they should have excuses made for them or not be judged for their behaviour. People turning a blind eye and still accepting someone even though they are prejudiced is what allows that behaviour to continue. Of course insults don't help, but neither does not passing judgement.

When it's obvious, that's a different story. But sometimes, it's just perceived. My sister once believed McCain was racist because he had a dog named "Oreo," and I had to explain to her (which took days) that he had adopted a black girl so I doubt he was racist. Based on my sister's perception, would it be okay to pass judgement on McCain because naming a black and white dog "oreo" is racist no matter which way you put it? Like I told my sister, what if it was his black daughter who named the dog "oreo," and then that's when her position on the subject changed.

The issue is not people having a prejudice or discriminating, but people saying rude comments that are prejudicial in nature scaring away and insulting some really nice people. But there's nothing illegal about that just as it's not illegal for a person to call a girl fat in high school. In fact, it's pretty normal to call a girl fat in high school so normal people should feel more at home being surrounded by insults. Sounds insulting, but it's the mentality many are using on this site that you are arguing. It isn't that they hate the NTs as much as they are trying to understand NTs and also trying to justify and forgive wrongs done to them in the past by NTs, many using logical fallacies in the process with a taste of their pessimistic bitterness to add. So for those with perceived hatred, you aren't arguing their prejudice because they don't really have it, but their logic. You can't just set up rules in the forum about how to use logic. That's what the discussion is for.

As for people with hatred... Most of the people on here are victims of nastiness, and it's nasty and bullying to judge them for their anger and resentment. It's not nasty to correct them when they steered their anger in the wrong direction, as long as it's done without judgement and with some love. Most people seem to judge the person, and then they correct them coming from their hate which in turn makes them hypocrites. Considering the posts they are referring to generally seem to have had an injustice where someone hated them for no reason and now they hate people for no reason, thereby making them hypocrites too...yeah, a person arguing hypocrisy with hypocrisy is yet another logical fallacy, and very mean and rude to do at that. The high horse only helps you lower yourself to someone else's level.

This site is for Aspergers people to help understand the world around them better, a world that has alienated them for years, and a world that doesn't accept them for who they are. Most people come here trying to understand that world so that they can fit in and make friends, find/keep a spouse, find/keep a job, etc. In order to do that, we make generalizations about people who have AS and people who don't in order to try to find what the problem specifically is for each individual. We are pretty content with our AS world internally. IT's the external world we have issues with. So our perceptions of that external world is going to have equally things that are neutral like stimming and what people think of that to things that get nasty like bullying and why does this happen to me so much. Equally, I've seen NTs come on here posting things like Aspies are generally annoying with those monologues. Hah, but that's okay because we all accept our monologues are pretty annoying sometimes. But if an Aspie says NT's bully me more than Aspies, why? Oh, NTs don't want to accept the possibility of that being true so it's hate speech. So no, I'm not trying to justify a prejudice. I'm just saying that some people are misreading a lot of these posts. The bulk of them aren't meant to be hate. Only a terrible few, and then the rest get generalized, a prejudice so to speak, as hate.

To bring in prejudice and discrimination only unnecessarily complicates the problem. The problem again is that some of the comments are coming across rude and insulting, and most people are responding in a rude, insulting manner. People are also trying to justify their rudeness as due to their Aspergers making it hard for them to communicate what's really on their mind. Some people are also justifying their rudeness in the name of God or their MORAL Catechism. Unfortunately, I don't think the moderators can do much about rudeness unless it specifically, and obviously breaks a rule. We are all forced to deal with it the way we would if we came across it in our workplace, in our home, in the mall, wherever. You can either ignore it, or you can try to correct it with love (which will get you further than the next option), or you can reduce yourself to their level and get into a pig fighting contest where everyone ends up covered in mud (stole that analogy from someone else in this forum if he recognizes it...much better than mine since mine has a cuss word).

By your logic, a person who feels they have been victimized by blacks throughout their lives and then decides to say things like 'whites are superior to blacks' and 'whites should segregate themselves from blacks because blacks aren't worth knowing' is not really racist or prejudiced, they are just trying to understand blacks. The fact that they were victimized means it's ok for them to group a whole race of people together and say they are the same. I use the example of blacks versus whites because I feel it makes the issue much clearer. I find some people don't seem to realise that a statement is prejudiced until you replace NT with blacks and Aspie with white.

I also want to say I find that an unhelpful generalisation for you to say that 'it's pretty normal to call a girl fat in high school so normal people should feel more at home being surrounded by insults'. Why would you say something like that? Just because an NT might bully an AS person or anyone who is different DOES NOT mean that all NT's are bullies. NT's get bullied too. NT's have depression and commit suicide. They are fragile too. Why would you say something that generalises NT's in a way that says it's ok to insult them? Just because someone has felt victimised by a person who belongs to a certain group DOES NOT make it ok for them to take that person's attributes and attach them to that whole group of people. That is prejudice.

I've been a victim of bullying. I was called names in Primary School and I had no friends until Grade 4. I've also been bullied in some work places. That doesn't give me the excuse to group all those bullies together and say they are NT's and NT's are therefore bad people. They are bullies. They are horrible people who get something out of belittling others. They may be NT as well and probably all are, but the bigger part of their personality that is far more important is the one where they like to feel superior to some people. I'm sure Aspies are also capable of bullying. It has far more to do with personality type than neurotype.

Quite simply, whatever their reasons, if people are saying something that is prejudiced, then they are prejudiced. I don't care if they feel they have been bullied by someone out of that group. They have no right to generalise a group of people and then pass judgement on them. If someone changes their mind and decides to no longer speak in a prejudiced manner, then there is no more need to call them prejudiced, but until they do, they should be called prejudiced. If you don't call them prejudiced when they are speaking in a prejudiced manner then you are turning a blind eye and allowing them to think their behaviour is ok. That never helps anyone to change and only allows bad behaviour to continue.



I don't understand why your sister would use a word like racist without any real information to back it up. How a biscuit could be racist makes no sense to me. I'm not talking about situations where there is no evidence. I'm talking about people actually saying that they believe themselves more intelligent than NT's. I believe that is a pretty extreme view to take and I don't think there is any excuse for it. If someone is too vague in their speech to actually be prejudiced, then they should not be called out for being prejudiced. It's only when people make prejudiced statements, that they should be said to be prejudiced.

I am a diagnosed Aspie and I have pride in who I am. But I do not adhere to thinking I am better than others. I have no regrets with not having friends the way NTs stereotypically seem to have friends. My friends when I was growing up were roller coasters and musical instruments. I was never lonely. Today, as an adult, I am not lonely. I still have those objects---and I have my family. That is all I want for. I do not desire the social scene---I never have.

I do not view my AS as a disorder because I do not want the social interactions that it causes me not to have. Instead, I am happy with the intense special interests it has given me. And these interests pretty much occupy most of my thinking time. So...where I have this intense focus, the standard NT does not. And where the standard NT has social interaction, I do not. So that is why I see it as a difference. If the majority of the world were Aspies, the clinical world might consider NT a disorder because they lacked the special intense interests. But that is not the way it is. The largest percentage of the population is NT---and the standard NT is known for basically effective social interaction. I think it is interesting to note that although NTs account for the largest percentage of the population---NTs only account for around 40% of the human population. The majority of the population is divided into non-NT groups. Autism is a very small percentage of that non-NT population. So we might say that the human population consists of various different groups.

Lying here in bed reading these posts, I do find I have a particular view of those of us with autism. I believe we are mysterious to the world. I am happy with that belief. Autism is a mystery that few people understand. This mysteriousness may occur because people are often mystified by how we can become so intensely absorbed into interests and withdraw from the social interactions that drives many people. People may be mystified by us because they wonder what is going on inside our heads.

Aspie pride---No. But amazement?---Yes. Many people are amazed at some of the things some of us can do. It mystifies and intrigues them. My autistic cousin for example could be given any date in his lifetime, and he could tell you the weather on that date---and he was right. But, he could barely find his way around the house, and he spent most of his life in the Athens, Ohio Psychiatric Hospital. I was amazed at him, but with this incredible savant skill that he had, he lacked to a greater degree some of the skills the rest of us take for granted. And to be a savant does not require someone to be autistic. However, 10% of autistics are savants. There are three types of savants: prodigious (the rarest and the ones with most exceptional skills), talent (what I am---I can play any musical instrument I become fascinated with in a short amount of time and with no lessons or instruction---and I can memorize all the statistics of roller coasters that I like), and splinter skill (I forget exactly the definition of this one). My father who is NT (I think) can multiply 4 digit numbers in his head quicker than can be done on a calculator. Savant skill?---Probably. But he claims he can teach other people how to do this skill. I listened to him describe the method once, but I was unable to understand his method. And I was good in math.

Well, I am just rambling---sorry. I guess my point is for me---I have pride in being an Aspie, but I do not adhere to thinking I am superior to everyone. My view is that we with autism are thought of by many as mysterious. Autism is not a disease. Therefore we will find many of us who are happy with being autistic. But, it would be hard to find someone say they were happy with having the Swine Flu---that is an illness. As for a disorder---I find it would be difficult to find someone say they were happy with being depressed. Depression might be seen as a disorder that occurs with people. And many of the autistics who are not happy with themselves are depressed. I occasionally get a little depressed, but my interests pull me out of it quickly. Other Aspies may be unhappy because they desire the social scene. I do not require the social scene so therefore that does not make me unhappy. With this said, isn't it interesting at how many of us with AS/autism are happy with who we are? Therefore, in my mind, it is a difference because disorders are not often viewed with in this manner. But I have strayed from the discussion here a bit because the topic is about the superiority thinking. Well, most of us do not think that way.

First of all, I split up the "prejudiced" posts into two categories....
1. Those with Perceived Hatred (misunderstood)
2. Those with Hatred (obvious)

In my logic, the perceived hatred group (not the obvious group here) is often misunderstood. There's nothing prejudice to say, well if it's considered normal to do this, then it's normal to do it. I'm not saying it's without fallacy, but I'm saying in situations like that you aren't arguing a prejudice as much as their logic. In my example, I chose normal people because you yourself said earlier that "normal doesn't exist." I wasn't myself making that statement as much as providing an example. And it made a great example to prove my point on this...you perceived a hatred there from me that wasn't there because you pulled it out of context.

You can't really compare race to this situation because race is the color of the skin and has no bearing on behavior. Autism does affect behavior. You just don't get diagnosed black by a shrink. There are some truths to a difference between NTs and Aspies; otherwise, it wouldn't be worth diagnosing. If I'm wrong, then it's prejudice to offer treatment for autism or to claim that there's a need for it.

But if you really want to use my logic on race... my logic would be more like if someone said, "Why is it okay for black people to say the n-word and not white people?" That's technically a logical fallacy because it's not okay to say the n-word period even if it seems more acceptable for one group to use that word, or the FCC would only allow black people to say that word on the radio. A statement like that can be perceived as a racial hate statement, but it more or less is someone trying to understand a group of people that they aren't part of.

When you do see someone trying to claim that NTs are bullies and Aspies are not, then what you've said here about bullying being personality type more so than neurotype might pose a great argument to that person. I never really said that, so you are kinda preaching to the choir.

To say, "if people are saying something that is prejudiced, then they are prejudiced" is generalizing an individual and passing judgement on that individual. If it's bad to do that to a group, then it should be equally bad to do that to an individual.

"If you don't call them prejudiced when they are speaking in a prejudiced manner then you are turning a blind eye and allowing them to think their behaviour is ok." Not true. You don't have to call people prejudiced in order to not turn a blind eye. There are much better options than passing judgement on someone you don't really know much about. You can say that the statement sounded prejudiced and you wanted clarification, and you can argue some of the logic used, and you can politely remind people on the variables they are forgetting (like the good qualities of people in general, or that everybody is different, or whatever suits the conversation).

But to call someone prejudiced is reducing yourself to name calling, which is a form of bullying.

And for my sister, maybe i should clarify a bit more on the oreo. In the U.S., it has been a trend for racist people to call a mixed person (half black and half white) oreo after the cookie. My sister is white and married to a black man, and all three of her kids are mixed, so she hears that term more often than most people. She is also very quick to call someone racist, and often she'll create racism when it isn't there as a result. The same mentality you use is the one she uses... if it sounds racist, must be racist...if it sounds prejudiced, then it is prejudice. She is just quick to judge which results in a lot of misjudgements.

All I'm saying is that people mess up. People say things they don't mean. People also say things they mean that is wrong and hateful. NOBODY, including you and me, is perfect. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's not right to judge a group of people based on experiences just as much as it's not right to judge an individual based on one experience. It's not right to justify rudeness with Aspergers, and it's not right to justify rudeness in the name of morality.

A good example would be the NT people with (genuine) social anxiety disorder. I visited a message board for sufferers once. Some people posting there were virtually housebound, they were so terrified of interacting with others outside of their own family.

My feelings about having AS are thus: I recognize that I have an illness/a disorder/a disability. No matter how I might feel sometimes that the way I see something is the better, more logical, more sensible way, the fact remains that it is not how most people are wired - how people 'should' be wired - to see it. Technically, my brain is slightly wrong. However, though, I am still a PERSON, an individual. If a particular aspect of my behavior does not cause me any personal distress, should there be an urgent need to alter it for the sole reason that it is not 'normal'? If the same aspect does not have any real effect on other people's lives, should it be altered for the sole reason that it would make them feel more comfortable?

Having AS does not make me somehow superior, but nor does it make me nothing more than a mistake that needs correcting.

Last edited by Hovis on 30 Jul 2009, 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hovis, I agree with your post.

I don't believe in stereotypes for any group of people, and I don't have prejudices against anyone. I don't think NT's are superior to those with AS, nor do I believe those with AS are superior. I guess my brain just doesn't work that way.

We all make value judgments based on actions from time to time. (some more than others) But I don't make judgments based on things like race, age, size, class, disability (or ability), religion, or any other "group" of people.

I honestly have a hard time understanding people that do. I know that some were born into families that held prejudices against others and simply grew up that way not even realizing it isn't fair to judge a whole group of people in that way. I know a lot of people like that.

i used to know an autistic whose signature included the offensive line "mercury for all babies".

Another autistic used to put "freeourpeople" in block caps as though autism was imprisoning us?

According to Tony Attwood, denial and arrogance is one way of dealing with asperger/autism diagnosis. They think everyone else has to change to suit them and are unwilling to meet people 1/2 way. Some even deny they're asperger/autistic. Note i didnt put autie or aspie there since these folk are ashamed about being autistic!

Alexis

The most annoying thing that a neurotypical actually has the delusion of thinking that he or she is better than the Aspergian. Neurotypical people are predominantly not worth knowing... If it is not direct hatred what really annoys me is their really fussy and condescending attitude. They make me sick"




Well you go to far with these sorts of comments though their cruelty especially so towards "love ones" can certainly be quite sickening my so called "family" repeatedly kicked me while I was down and I mean very down (just recovered from a major mental breakdown) I informed them (not that they deserve to know) though I thought I'd do the right thing and let them know I'm doing OK now and that I'm about to return to work (apparently it shames the family name to have a adult child on a disability pension) now they want to share their "love" and become reacquainted,
so yes "they (can ) make me sick"

Pathetic or sad