Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

How do NTs feel empathy/sympathy?

Page 3 of 6 [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Pixelbreads
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 5

02 Oct 2009, 2:35 pm

My way to explain to people when they don't understand why I don't react to them crying or i react in a bad way is I say that whenever you are told something, or you see something, your brain makes clouds. The clouds contain every other instance in your life that reminds you of this moment or how you wouldn't want that moment to happen to you and your family.

I do not make those kinds of clouds in my head on my own. The clouds of thoughts that appear are how the situation SHOULD have happened, what they shouldn't have done,and the most cold logical thing I can say pops out of my mouth.

I don't consider empathy or sympathy as helping (because it doesn't help me). In a way I feel like I honestly care more because I do not give them empty statements. I tell them how to fix the problem in my opinion, and then I leave it at that. I know that this is not how social things work..but it is a fight to be any other way and its a lot of energy to fight it all the time so I stopped in recent years as terrible as that sounds.

I don't feel sympathy or empathy even for people I care about a lot of the time. I fake empathy if I'm busy and want them to go away, if I have time I try to help with the problem even though I am told this is not what they want. I feel bad about it because I don't like lying at all and I feel sick about it but if its interfering with my interests well...they take priority.



racooneyes
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 410
Location: blackeye, outer rim

02 Oct 2009, 2:38 pm

Stinkypuppy wrote:
racooneyes wrote:
but our 'best guess' depends on how we can relate the situation to one we've heard of or experienced before. I might be wrong but i think an NT best guess is of the intuitive kind rather than extrapolated from prior knowledge or experience. They undoubtedly are a lot more accurate that's for sure.

I definitely agree with you in the first sentence, but about your second sentence... I have also thought about this possibility too, but how would you be able to distinguish between an NT making a best guess out of pure intuition, vs. out of knowledge and experience extrapolation? While AS folks tend to stick to routines and don't like leaving their comfort zone a lot, by comparison NTs do a large variety of things, thus obtaining the knowledge and experience very easily. One doesn't need to explore an activity very deeply to get an emotional understanding of what it would be like for xyz thing to happen, so NTs can build that base of personal experience quickly. Plus NTs are more naturally gifted in generalizing (whereas AS folks have to really work at it). Thus with the ability to generalize, coupled with the ability to get varied experience quickly, NTs would be very easily positioned to empathize with others via experience extrapolation. That would make it really difficult to identify whether an NT was really best-guessing out of pure intuition or experience.


Mhmm yeah, I think it has a lot more to it that than experience for NTs though but that's where my experience ends so I find it impossible to explain further sadly. I'm only going by what I've read here from NTs and the things I've read on theory of mind, I definitely feel there's a difference in how they come to their conclusions. DW_Mom's post kind of says it all really, she just feels it and isn't confused by the concept. I find it really difficult to get my head round it.


_________________
read all the pamphlets and watch the tapes!

get all confused and then mix up the dates.


Spazzergasm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,415
Location: Maine

02 Oct 2009, 2:58 pm

get your head around the concept of empathy/sympathy?

and are the unpredictable reactions to situations an AS trait?



dadsgotas
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2009
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 94

02 Oct 2009, 3:04 pm

I think Stinkypuppy's been writing some very astute and perceptive stuff in this thread. It's clear from observation that empathic behaviour by normal people is often dishonest: they'll sympathise with someone until they go away, then reveal that they were faking it. They empathise less with people they don't like; and they indicate their empathy in ways learned from TV and films, rather than in ways which are spontaneous and instinctive.

I wonder - seriously, and not just as an easy way to put down normal people - whether our problem is that we're trying to feel the right things and understand our and everyone else's feelings, while they're just engaging in social behaviour. The non-verbal behaviour we have such trouble reading includes a good deal of non-verbal lying one's head off.



racooneyes
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 410
Location: blackeye, outer rim

02 Oct 2009, 3:05 pm

Well I understand what it is and how I do it I just don't understand how NTs do it is what I mean.

Have you read abut theory of mind? That's why the reactions are unpredictable.

Thirded btw :lol:


_________________
read all the pamphlets and watch the tapes!

get all confused and then mix up the dates.


Last edited by racooneyes on 02 Oct 2009, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MommyJones
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Dec 2008
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 684
Location: United States

02 Oct 2009, 3:05 pm

racooneyes wrote:
Stinkypuppy wrote:
racooneyes wrote:
but our 'best guess' depends on how we can relate the situation to one we've heard of or experienced before. I might be wrong but i think an NT best guess is of the intuitive kind rather than extrapolated from prior knowledge or experience. They undoubtedly are a lot more accurate that's for sure.

I definitely agree with you in the first sentence, but about your second sentence... I have also thought about this possibility too, but how would you be able to distinguish between an NT making a best guess out of pure intuition, vs. out of knowledge and experience extrapolation? While AS folks tend to stick to routines and don't like leaving their comfort zone a lot, by comparison NTs do a large variety of things, thus obtaining the knowledge and experience very easily. One doesn't need to explore an activity very deeply to get an emotional understanding of what it would be like for xyz thing to happen, so NTs can build that base of personal experience quickly. Plus NTs are more naturally gifted in generalizing (whereas AS folks have to really work at it). Thus with the ability to generalize, coupled with the ability to get varied experience quickly, NTs would be very easily positioned to empathize with others via experience extrapolation. That would make it really difficult to identify whether an NT was really best-guessing out of pure intuition or experience.


Mhmm yeah, I think it has a lot more to it that than experience for NTs though but that's where my experience ends so I find it impossible to explain further sadly. I'm only going by what I've read here from NTs and the things I've read on theory of mind, I definitely feel there's a difference in how they come to their conclusions. DW_Mom's post kind of says it all really, she just feels it and isn't confused by the concept. I find it really difficult to get my head round it.



Maybe there is no such a thing as pure intuition. I think intuition is experience based, but it's not a conscious process. With AS, each situation is analyzed on a conscious level, logic is applied and a conclusion is made. I think it's just a different way of processing information, and that is why NT's just "feel" it and those with AS don't. The difficulty of generalizing could be an element too. That's an interesting concept, I never really thought of that. :?



Stinkypuppy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Oct 2006
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,554

02 Oct 2009, 3:06 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Based on what I've read here, I'll vote for Aspie. Start with the fact that you are confused by it all, and that your reactions are inconsistent and, by your own view, often inappropriate. I don't get confused by the concept, I just feel it, and sometimes its inappropriate, but not that often, and I've never dwelled on it. Just one of those things that "is" to me. To you, however, its something you really think about. That doesn't mean you don't feel; in fact, AS can have unusually strong feelings about a number of things. Its more that you find your feelings confusing at times,and maybe unpredictable.

This makes a lot of sense, but to an extent, overthinking anything will make it confusing. And everybody knows how Aspies love to think, analyze, and process! :mrgreen: So I'd have to ask whether AS folks are confused by the concept of empathy because the concept is truly foreign to them, or because they are overthinking the concept? I would cast into doubt that the concept is foreign, because AS folks appear to be perfectly capable of empathizing with animals, and with people they actually care about.


_________________
Won't you help a poor little puppy?


Last edited by Stinkypuppy on 02 Oct 2009, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

racooneyes
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 410
Location: blackeye, outer rim

02 Oct 2009, 3:07 pm

MommyJones wrote:



Maybe there is no such a thing as pure intuition. I think intuition is experience based, but it's not a conscious process. With AS, each situation is analyzed on a conscious level, logic is applied and a conclusion is made. I think it's just a different way of processing information, and that is why NT's just "feel" it and those with AS don't. The difficulty of generalizing could be an element too. That's an interesting concept, I never really thought of that. :?


Yes well put, thanks :)


_________________
read all the pamphlets and watch the tapes!

get all confused and then mix up the dates.


Stinkypuppy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Oct 2006
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,554

02 Oct 2009, 3:13 pm

racooneyes wrote:
MommyJones wrote:



Maybe there is no such a thing as pure intuition. I think intuition is experience based, but it's not a conscious process. With AS, each situation is analyzed on a conscious level, logic is applied and a conclusion is made. I think it's just a different way of processing information, and that is why NT's just "feel" it and those with AS don't. The difficulty of generalizing could be an element too. That's an interesting concept, I never really thought of that. :?


Yes well put, thanks :)

Definitely agree! :mrgreen:


_________________
Won't you help a poor little puppy?


bdhkhsfgk
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 May 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,450

02 Oct 2009, 3:17 pm

Spazzergasm wrote:
bdhkhsfgk wrote:
I can relate to you about children/people hurting themselves, I saw a kid fell of his bike and hit the ground at high speed with his lips cut up, and I laughed, one time I saw a cat being driven apart, but I didn't mind, it was like seeing nothing happen, I didn't feel sympathy in any way, one time when a truck drove over a dog, a family memebr cried, and I said; "Good thing it didn't drive over us". :?



THAT would make me scream with misery. in fact once it happened to me....i screamed in misery and started crying.

i seem to not feel sympathy for people's problems....people i dont care about. but it depends on my mood. it's wierd.


I feel more sympathy with animals than humans, like 60% for animals and 40% for humans.



bdhkhsfgk
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 May 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,450

02 Oct 2009, 3:19 pm

Spazzergasm wrote:
man. now i cant decide if i qualify as aspie or NT. i want to be an aspie. :(. isnt that wierd?


If it's hard seeing a psychologist, take an aspie quiz :D



Spazzergasm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,415
Location: Maine

02 Oct 2009, 3:23 pm

yeah. animals are so honest and blunt with their reactions. and they dont require words, they just need you to be on the same channel.

i got a 163 out of 200 on the aspie quiz. it was more general tendencies though. i think im ok at reading expressions and understanding people.



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2009, 3:48 pm

Stinkypuppy wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Based on what I've read here, I'll vote for Aspie. Start with the fact that you are confused by it all, and that your reactions are inconsistent and, by your own view, often inappropriate. I don't get confused by the concept, I just feel it, and sometimes its inappropriate, but not that often, and I've never dwelled on it. Just one of those things that "is" to me. To you, however, its something you really think about. That doesn't mean you don't feel; in fact, AS can have unusually strong feelings about a number of things. Its more that you find your feelings confusing at times,and maybe unpredictable.

This makes a lot of sense, but to an extent, overthinking anything will make it confusing. And everybody knows how Aspies love to think, analyze, and process! :mrgreen: So I'd have to ask whether AS folks are confused by the concept of empathy because the concept is truly foreign to them, or because they are overthinking the concept? I would cast into doubt that the concept is foreign, because AS folks appear to be perfectly capable of empathizing with animals, and with people they actually care about.


Ooohhhh, good question.

Lol, I want to say, "we'll have to think about it," because it really is a good question, but every time I write that it sounds like I'm trying to make a pun, and I'm not, so this messy sentence will have to do instead.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2009, 3:53 pm

MommyJones wrote:
The difficulty of generalizing could be an element too. That's an interesting concept, I never really thought of that. :?


I would say that generalization issues definitely come into play, because the difficulty AS have with generalization is real, and I've seen it extend into all sorts of aspects with m son. It goes both ways, really; unable to generalize in situations most would consider similar, and inappropriately generally across situations most would not consider similar. Given that AS are posting how they consciously apply logic in empathy situations, the difficulty of applying something learned elsewhere to what will never be exactly the same situation, is going to arise at times.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


Shebakoby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,759

02 Oct 2009, 3:55 pm

I have a bit of a different problem. Sometimes I feel something directly that is NOT coming from me. Like, if someone I know had a death in the family, but I wasn't close to the person who died, it was like I was channeling all the grief of the people I knew. I'd liken this to being 'empathic' like Counselor Troi on Star Trek the Next Generation.



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2009, 3:59 pm

dadsgotas wrote:
I think Stinkypuppy's been writing some very astute and perceptive stuff in this thread. It's clear from observation that empathic behaviour by normal people is often dishonest: they'll sympathise with someone until they go away, then reveal that they were faking it. They empathise less with people they don't like; and they indicate their empathy in ways learned from TV and films, rather than in ways which are spontaneous and instinctive.

I wonder - seriously, and not just as an easy way to put down normal people - whether our problem is that we're trying to feel the right things and understand our and everyone else's feelings, while they're just engaging in social behaviour. The non-verbal behaviour we have such trouble reading includes a good deal of non-verbal lying one's head off.


The thing is, most third parties can see quite clearly when the empathetic behavior is dishonest. The person in pain may not, because need can override the ability to see clearly, but the lack of real empathy is generally fairly obvious when watching from the outside, at least to me. I wouldn't say faking it happens often, but it does happen.

One thing NT's are willing to do is "act" a feeling if they believe it will ease a social situation or make someone feel better. I've found that my AS son absolutely won't do that, because he feels it is dishonest. There are times when social norms do dictate that you act a feeling, regardless of if you really feel it. Pretending you like a gift would be one example. Or saying sorry in a situation that isn't really your fault may be another. So you do have a point, but I don't think it is the whole of it.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).