By discounting the self-diagnosed, you play their game

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I admit I do check people's diagnosis status when the topic goes "do you do this...?" or "have you had this experience...?" because if it applies to me I'm interested to see whether it's an aspie/autistic thing and another component to my autistic self and thus something to put in perspective. I do believe some of the self-diagnosed people have autism, but I'm also pretty sure some just have an identity crisis, a hole to fill or a need to blame a condition for the state of their life. Although their opinions are as valid as anyone else's, they don't help me when I try to figure autism out. That being said, I'm not entirely sure all diagnosed people have autism either, as some professionals seem very unprofessional and will diagnose someone if they argue well enough rather than administer cognitive testing.

(Btw I am aware people can lie in their profiles and I also know I have nowhere near enough answers to these topics to make any scientifically valid claims about autists being a certain way. But I think most people are honest about their status, and I'm not trying to write an article, just figure out what of autism is me and what of me is autism. )

Yes, except people are not going to listen, will not agree, and will continue with their prior opinion as humanity has done for the last five thousand years. This is an argument, a discussion, a debate, w/e you want to call it that will not end, and has no point. In essence it is no different from religions claiming their god or fairy tale is real and another false. You will fail at convincing and you will deepen any rift that exists, or you will create a rift. It is a topic best left undisturbed due to its volatile nature and the simple fact that nothing will ever change because of it on either side of the debate.

This is a not aimed at you in particular, it is aimed at everyone who continues this on either side of the debate. I merely quoted you because you wished to have people check the ramifications of their viewpoint. While a noble goal, it's about as likely to happen as convincing the entire planet the world is round. Such an obvious fact should be obvious no? Yet there are still flat-earthers, as they call themselves. I'm sure you can also find people that truly believe the moon is the size of a quarter and no matter how you try, no matter how many rational arguments, facts, science, and even if you take them to the moon, they still will not believe you. This is humanity. Deal with it, argue pointlessly some more, or sit back and laugh at peoples incredible self-delusions as I do, but please let these threads stop. It's just tiring.

(Again this was directed at both sides of the debate, not Fiddler)

And to answer your last question, I have never visited anyones profile to check their diagnosis. I haven't actually ever visited anyones profile for anything. I've only been on mine once, when I first joined.

Usually if I check somebody's profile, it's to find out their gender. If age and location are going to be listed, I'll see it right under their name, but a lot of times I get very confused about whether a post is coming from a male or female.

You may be right. However, no one is forcing your hand to continue to read these threads (unless you have some sort of compulsion to read every single post on this forum).

I would suggest that your suggestion, that people simply stop creating threads for discussion around this topic, is about as likely to happen as actually changing someone's mind.

There. Double stalemate.

Of course it is. I knew the hypocrisy of my post as I was writing it

However, the reason I made the post was because the voice of moderation is something that will lessen the ravening of either side. Another thing history has shown us is that that voice can do such a thing, but it takes time. While it's not really possible to change peoples strongly held beliefs and opinions, it is possible to get them, slowly, to stop pushing it onto others. While there will always be fanatics on either side, there are far less now than there used to be attempting to force their beliefs onto others. It would take a forum rule and mods to keep these types of thread from continually cropping up, but multitudes of people asking them to just stop will slow them. I can start by asking that at least. I'm sure others will continue the debate, yet there will be people there to post "Just shut up, we're tired of seeing it. Or take it to PMs."

Unfortunately, as has always been the case, the vocal minority will most likely "win" because the majority is apathetic and will ignore it, despite how irritating it might be, simply because it can be ignored.

I didn't say the diagnosis guaranteed that the person has AS, I said a person who is diagnosed AND -definitely- has AS.

There was no conclusion indicator.

If a person definitely has AS they cannot not have as because they definitely have it.

An undiagnosed AS person who definitely has AS will be most likely to seek a diagnosis without trying to get a diagnosis of something in particular because they haven't heard of AS - this results in a misdiagnosis or diagnosis of another condition. For me, I was diagnosed with clinical depression, I do have clinical depression but the problem I was having was related to AS. Then I saw something on TV about AS and saw myself in it, in relation to the obssessive traits (I practice up to 16 hours in one day) and then it went on to say the problems and it struck me. I am hated because of what I am, not who I am. I am told directly to stay away from people because I act creepy and weird. I have fantasised about killing my family and then myself because I "knew" they secretly wanted me to because they were ashamed of me. I have permanent scarring from burning myself with heated knives and cutting myself to get out of meltdowns. I have destroyed over £2000 of musical equipment because I was too scared to kill myself but wanted to ruin my life so eventually I would be able to do it.

I have seen a trend of people who have some AS traits who believe they have AS simply because of that but are not crippled by it at all. They then go to doctors who tell them yes, they have some traits but not enough to be defined as a syndrome and it is not detrimental - just slightly unpleasant. So, because they didn't get the answer they wanted they say they have aspergers but are self-diagnosed, making it look like it is not a disability and meaning people thinks that what AS is. Because of this, AS people are seen as lazy by many people and I am ashamed to step outside of my house.

These people I will not hesitate to kill with my bare hands. Grabbing a fistful of neck skin and ripping it open like a seam in a jacket. Ripping arteries and veins with my teeth and then staring into their eyes laughing while they suffer their last few moments alive.

I literally hate and want to kill everyone I meet in person because I was born broken but they made me more broken and now there are people actively and deliberate trying to break me more.

For this reason I do not use somebody's ASD status on a WP profile to determine whether I take the person's statement seriously or not. I rely on the merit of the posts themselves.

OddGoat, perhaps we should create a new category, then. How about "crippled self-diagnosed"? The people who very obviously have something wrong with them, but just don't have an accurate diagnosis?

You have a really good point about the difference between someone who does have a crippling disorder but doesn't have a diagnosis, and someone who has autism traits without having severe functioning problems, and I think that that's a really huge stumbling block in these debates. Pro-self-diagnosis people view the "self-diagnosed" as that first group, while anti-self-diagnosis people view "self-diagnosed" as the latter. That may be the largest source of the whole argument..

I have a friend who likely has AS, she has many traits and she has a brother and sister on the spectrum too, who are lower functioning than her. She has made a complete success of herself and is quite functional, though she has problems in some areas. She is at about the same level of AS as me yet she got help early and I didnt. I am now living with my parents, with some really huge problems and I have lost the modest amount of functioning I had in my 20s. Yet I dont believe she is any less AS than me, just because she is doing (way) better. That seems to be what this is about, people being angry at others who for whatever reason are high-functioning.

Zen, I think it's more a feeling of mockery, or like their own problems won't be taken seriously if people who function far better are diagnosed with the same disorder.
Kinda like when people with mild headaches claim they have migraines. Then people with actual migraines are likely to be told to take a Tylenol when they're having crippling pain, because people will be used to the word "migraine" being used by people who mean "slight headache."

I like the analogy that Maggiedoll used about the headache thing (it was one that I understood yay! Cause it's a simplistic analogy when people use these long analogies I get so lost and don't catch the entire thing.. short and sweet analogies are wonderful!)

I just want to repeat what I say to a lot of people via PMs cause I don't want to cause a lot of drama, I support self-diagnosing if one has done a lot of research and has concluded from a, b and c = this kind of thing. I support thsoe who have done research for six months to a year more cause obviously they have put a lot of time and effort into their diagnosis and are probably right on the nose more than someone who has read about asperger's for a week and are convinced they have it without doing a sufficient amount of research.

The problem I have, is when there are people who have done this to me so I am not exaggerating (this has to do with the merger of AS & PDD-NOS with Classic Autisma nd just calling it an ASD), who self-diagnose with AS (No one on here I swear I know a gorup of people who are SD who have done their research, some who haven't and just want to fit in somewhere...) that they don't want to be lumped in with the ret*ds, the ones who struggle more than they do and would rather be seen as the better type of Autism. And I hate to break it to people but there is no better type of Autism.

I think, that those who are so anti-self diagnosis do not want to have to risk being put with people that may actually make it harder for them in the sense that people will expect them to be able to function juts as well as those who are SD who to them probably don't have a bad of an impairment as those who were diagnosed whether it be early in life or in adulthood (and have gone through multiple different diagnosis's) And there is a resentment cause then they are treated poorly cause they have a diagnosis and aren't being treated as if they actually have it, adn are actually impaired because there are people who are doing so well compared to them and they are possibly jjealous and can't understand why someone would want to have AS when it impairs them so much that its a daily struggle for them.

I'm tryign to play devil's advocate here, Maggiedoll and Apple_of_my_eye know I'm a moderate person on this subject and that I do support the SD that do research and such.

The thing is, it doesnt turn out to be a struggle for everybody. Many people have found their systemising mind actually helped their career, or gave them a great talent. They still have AS though.

I completly agree with fiddler.

Zen, that's just not true, though. Somebody who doesn't struggle and doesn't have problems functioning doesn't have a disorder. They may have traits, they may identify with people on the spectrum, but if they don't have problems in functioning, there's no disorder. That's the impairment criterion and that is probably why so many people are so against people who don't have a professional diagnosis.

When I refer to people who are self-diagnosed, I'm not talking about people who are diagnosed with nothing, I'm talking about people who have been diagnosed with half the DSM and never found any help or anything accurate. I'm talking about people likely to be diagnosed with agoraphobia because they're afraid to go anywhere or see anybody, or people who got slapped with a borderline diagnosis because they're the most severe self-injurer most doctors have ever seen, and therapists find them frustrating because they don't know how to communicate. I'm talking about people with serious problems who get really, really upset by these threads about how anybody who doesn't have an official diagnosis doesn't have a real problem. I'm talking about people who have LOTS of diagnoses, but can't find help because the root of the problem isn't being addressed, and who are getting blamed for that. I'm talking about the anorexics with undiagnosed AS who will probably never be diagnosed because they're girls, so nobody will even consider it, and who can't get help because you can't treat an eating disorder in someone with AS in the same way as you can with a cheerleader or dancer. I'm NOT talking about people who don't have real problems. A decent number of the people I'm talking about are probably going to die from the lack of diagnosis.
Ok.. um.. I didn't mean for this to turn into another rant.. I'm just trying to explain the difference in what "self-diagnosed" means to me as opposed to some of the anti-self-diagnosis people..

(Not you, WhittenKitten, you make sense, and it sounds like OddGoat is of the same opinion you are about those with problems vs. those without problems. It's probably actually just trolls who do the completely anti-SD thing rather than the anti-self-diagnosed-people-without-real-problems thing. But it just makes it hard not to filter all anti-self-diagnosis discussion through that.)

maggiedoll, you have taken this discussion completely out of context with your vendetta. people were trying to discuss the comparison between self-diagnosis and this story. and you turn it into an argument about the validity of self-diagnosis VS professional diagsosis. FOR NO REASON! why??? you just randomly started raging! self-diagnosed people claim to be sick of this debate...but who bought it up? you, a self-diagnosed person. and completely unprovoked!

i mean i do don't care how you feel or think either way, but i mean at least stay in context and not just start ranting and raving at one random mention of self-diagnosis. maybe take the time to get your head around what people are ACTUALLY saying, rather then what you interpret things as in your rage.

88BK, you're not making any sense at all. How can you say that the thread has nothing to do with the validity of self-diagnosis? Again, you're just making personal attacks on me, and I'm not sure why. Just to be nasty, I guess. And at this point, YOU are the only one here I'm feeling any rage at all at, and it has nothing to do with the validity of any diagnosis, but the fact that you seem to be attacking me for no reason.