How is Asperger a Disability or a Disorder?

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robinhood
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20 Nov 2009, 3:21 pm

Maggiedoll wrote:
If you do not have impairment, you do not have the disorder.


Absolutely. And success in a career doesn't necessarily imply freedom from impairment in other areas.



ottorocketforever
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20 Nov 2009, 3:31 pm

I only have a 98 IQ. :(



robinhood
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20 Nov 2009, 3:36 pm

Just copied this from another thread just posted.......

Quote:
The Record: Adults with autism
Friday, November 20, 2009
The Record

AUTISM has been getting more of the attention it deserves in the last few years, and the once-grim landscape for people with autism is changing. Recent developments include a task force appointed by the governor, mandatory health insurance coverage and courses on the disorder offered to parents and teachers.

With greater understanding and wider acceptance, autism can move from the hushed side rooms to the main hall of daily life. But that will require a greater focus on treating and assisting adults with the disorder.

We know the numbers: 1 in 94 children in New Jersey is diagnosed with autism, higher than the revised nationwide estimate of approximately 1 in 100. Those children grow up and when they do they still need help, from housing to education to health care. But help has not been easy to get. Two bills that will be introduced next week would begin to change that. We support the measures.


The point being, we NEED this recognition - an Autism Bill has just been passed by the UK parliament to protect the rights of autistic people. If we say it's not a disability, how could we argue for these rights?



wildgrape
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20 Nov 2009, 8:35 pm

As someone already mentioned, AS is a spectrum, and without doubt some are sufficiently impaired by autism that it would be difficult to consider their condition other than a disability. By this I mean that they are unable to earn a living and/or look after themselves. In addition, many with AS suffer from associated conditions, such as social anxiety and depression. I have read a number of posts on these forums where contributors have stated that they are more impaired by their anxiety or depression than they are by their AS. From folks' own descriptions of their difficulties, I have no doubt that this is true.

Another factor is that much of the interest and activity surrounding autism and AS is related to obtaining accommodations and funding. Thus there are powerful agendas and interests at play that go to considerable lengths to marginalize/deny the existence of successful autists. One of the more specious arguments is to quote the APA's "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" and suggest that successful autists are simply not autistic. Another tactic is is to quote dubious statistics for which there is no available information detailing how they were derived. Some of the statistics cited clearly don't come from any rigorous scientific enquiry, but are nonetheless treated as truth by some.

Perhaps what muddies the debate most is that since there is no physical test (blood test, genetic test) or definitive markers for AS, nobody really knows who has it. It stands to reason that those autists who cope reasonably well do not seek assistance or identify themselves as AS. In particular, the most gifted and successful seem least likely to identify themselves as AS, thus skewing the perception of the condition.

In any event, every individual has strengths and weaknesses, and if everyone with a weakness or deficit was considered disabled almost everyone could be considered such. Personally, I reject the notion that I am disabled or disordered, even though I have significant social deficits and sensory issues. I will add that my successful career would not have been remotely possible without my intellectual gifts.



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20 Nov 2009, 9:46 pm

robinhood wrote:
Maggiedoll wrote:
If you do not have impairment, you do not have the disorder.


Absolutely. And success in a career doesn't necessarily imply freedom from impairment in other areas.

Right, but if there's impairment in other areas, it's not a "blessing."



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20 Nov 2009, 11:33 pm

I think it's utterly senseless to say that you can't consider a disability to be a blessing. Yeah, by all means, let's rank autistic people by how disabled they are, and pity the ones with more disability points! Oh, no, you don't want to be one of THOSE disabled people. You want to distance yourself at every turn, because disability is shameful horrible and if you so much as touch it you'll be contaminated! You can't possibly be happy if you're disabled. Your life will always be worth less than if you weren't. You'll always be happier if you magically lose your deficits, because they can't possibly be part of your identity; oh no, this part of your brain that you've had since infancy is just an irrelevant part of yourself that can be dropped without changing you a bit! After all, if you find out you're worse than most people at something, the best thing to do is hide it behind your back, hope they won't notice, and wave around your favorite skill to justify your existence and prove yourself superior! Because, of course, we all know that being good at something automatically makes you happier, better, and all-around luckier than somebody who isn't good at whatever you're good at. And, if you like, you can pick which skills you consider important, so you can distance yourself from those poor defective people over there (who also share some of your weaknesses, but hey, those have been declared to be Not Important!). No, just pick a skill you're good at to be the important one, and you can declare yourself superior to anybody...

BoringAaron wrote:
the average IQ of NTs is 100, which seems very low. What's the average IQ of aspies?
Statistically? Should be about 102. That's what happens when you take a population of people and remove the under-80s. Realistically, it's probably a little higher--105, 110 maybe--because of the stereotype that Asperger's is smart and Autism is dumb, so lots of people who should get diagnosed Autism get diagnosed Asperger's instead because the shrink thinks they seem smart. (If they didn't do this, average Aspie IQ would probably be below 100.) It's honestly really stupid, because there's no clear distinction between Asperger's and regular autism; and if you combine the spectrum, you don't get any special IQ benefit at all (actually, it'd be lower than average). Plus, it's not so simple as higher IQ. We don't have the same kind of IQ profile as a neurotypical person does. Our strengths and weaknesses are all over the place; we might function as someone half our age in one area while blowing the top off the test in another area. This is the origin of savant skills, which many of us (at all IQ levels) have--extreme specialization. The average IQ says practically nothing about us. So drop the IQ thing, seriously.

Anyway, it's silly to say that because a disability is associated with high IQ, it isn't a disability. Let's say, for example, that everybody who's blind suddenly gets a five-point jump in their IQs, for some reason. Can they now fire their assistance dog and/or throw away their cane, get in a car and drive down the highway? Nope. Still blind. Just like Aspies are still socially delayed, prone to meltdowns, and impaired in executive function, no matter how well they do on IQ tests. (Do you say Stephen Hawking hasn't got a disability because he'd undoubtedly have an IQ beyond most/all of ours?) And that's just if you're actually Aspie and not misdiagnosed regular autism; if you're in that category, you probably had problems with verbal communication as well as the non-verbal... lecturing, scripting, echoing, grammar mish-mash. Like I said, though, it's immaterial what your actual diagnosis is, because there's just too much variation for me to say anything but, "well, they're autistic, but I'll have to meet them to know any more."


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21 Nov 2009, 10:46 am

Heres a nice list of 80 bad features in adults, well, mostly bad ones...
http://www.aspires-relationships.com/ar ... for_as.htm

Why do people think their skills are always directly related to their condition? I have talent in areas like drawing/writing but take the condition away and id still be good at them, just without the downsides. The 'difference' thing confuses me.

Is Dyslexia more a difference instead of a disability?
How about OCD?
Bi-Polar?
Schizophrenia?

Yes there are a small number who have freakish skills that may or may not be related to the condition but the vast majority of us have a harder time in life rather than an easier time. So... disability. People promote the 'difference' idea so they can make us (or our parents) feel better. But that doesnt make it any less of a disability.



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21 Nov 2009, 11:33 am

http://www.aspergers.com/aspcrit.htm

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What are the diagnostic criteria of Asperger's Disorder?

DSM-IV DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

A.Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B.Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D.There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).

E.There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

F.Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

GILLBERG'S CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

1.Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction
(at least two of the following)
(a) inability to interact with peers
(b) lack of desire to interact with peers
(c) lack of appreciation of social cues
(d) socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior

2.All-absorbing narrow interest
(at least one of the following)
(a) exclusion of other activities
(b) repetitive adherence
(c) more rote than meaning

3.Imposition of routines and interests
(at least one of the following)
(a) on self, in aspects of life
(b) on others

4.Speech and language problems
(at least three of the following)
(a) delayed development
(b) superficially perfect expressive language
(c) formal, pedantic language
(d) odd prosody, peculiar voice characteristics
(e) impairment of comprehension including misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings

5.Non-verbal communication problems
(at least one of the following)
(a) limited use of gestures
(b) clumsy/gauche body language
(c) limited facial expression
(d) inappropriate expression
(e) peculiar, stiff gaze

6.Motor clumsiness: poor performance on neurodevelopmental examination

(All six criteria must be met for confirmation of diagnosis.)



Note the bit that says "Clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

If you don't have that, you don't have Aspergers no matter what some online test or Wired magazine tells you... :roll:


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21 Nov 2009, 6:42 pm

But I want to make 2 points:

1 - Today, many diagnosis of AS are made in children, and in the case of children it is not much clear what "impairment" reaaly means - if a children is perfectly happy with himself, but the parents and/or teachers think that he is "impaired", he will probably be considered impaired (when I was a little child, I was a very happy boy, with my imaginary life(s) and with my books, but sometimes I heard my parents and grandparents saying between them things like "We should take TPE2 to a doctor")

2 - 20 years ago, a black in South Africa will had many difficulties in his life; these mean that being black was a disease or a disability, in these time and place? These is an extreme exemple to illustrate that "being impaired" sometimes could be not only the result of individual caracteristics but also of social conditions. In the same way, a person with a mild social awkwardeness can be considered only a bit "odd" if he lives in a manufactering-based economy but could have severe problems if he lives in a services-based economy, for example.



Ethyl41
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21 Nov 2009, 7:48 pm

I've seen the Neanderthal theory. Based on what I got out of reading about that theory, there is not enough evidence to convince me. Which doesn't make it false. It just means there isn't enough evidence. To me it seems that it may be a romanticism. Or perhaps an attempt to create a mythology. I think it's a nice story that people would like to be true. But until there's "enough" evidence, I'll remain skeptical.


What's the neanderthal theory? Help. Somebody?



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21 Nov 2009, 8:51 pm

Not understanding 'social things' very well, some of us can't talk(Though we may type or use other means of communication), sensory issues.

Need I say more?



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21 Nov 2009, 9:24 pm

TPE2 wrote:
But I want to make 2 points:

1 - Today, many diagnosis of AS are made in children, and in the case of children it is not much clear what "impairment" reaaly means - if a children is perfectly happy with himself, but the parents and/or teachers think that he is "impaired", he will probably be considered impaired (when I was a little child, I was a very happy boy, with my imaginary life(s) and with my books, but sometimes I heard my parents and grandparents saying between them things like "We should take TPE2 to a doctor")

2 - 20 years ago, a black in South Africa will had many difficulties in his life; these mean that being black was a disease or a disability, in these time and place? These is an extreme exemple to illustrate that "being impaired" sometimes could be not only the result of individual caracteristics but also of social conditions. In the same way, a person with a mild social awkwardeness can be considered only a bit "odd" if he lives in a manufactering-based economy but could have severe problems if he lives in a services-based economy, for example.


Ahh, we have a symbolic interactionist!

You are absolutely correct in that impairment is a social construct and means whatever a particular society decides in means. Still, that does not change the fact that in most modern human societies people with Asperger tendencies are defined as 'impaired.'

As the Thomas Theorem states-If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.


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21 Nov 2009, 9:41 pm

ottorocketforever wrote:
I only have a 98 IQ. :(


it doesn't matter, IQ scores are meaningless anyway, because it only tests a few dimensions of your mind. My IQ is 160, and I'm usually an idiot.



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21 Nov 2009, 10:00 pm

Maggiedoll wrote:
If you do not have impairment, you do not have the disorder. You would see that if you looked at the diagnostic criteria. It doesn't matter how you scored on an internet quiz, or what Wired magazine said. It's a disorder because it causes impairment. If you have a few traits and no impairment, you don't have it. It's in the definition. If you think it's a good thing, you don't have it. It also does not "cause" higher IQs. The average IQ of people with Asperger's is higher than the average IQ of the general population because it specifies that people with Asperger's can't have other developmental delays. If you chop out the bottom of the intelligence spectrum, of course the average will be higher. That doesn't mean that it "causes" IQ to be higher. It means that by definition the average must be higher.
Nothing you're saying makes any sense. It's like saying that since some people with bipolar are creative, it must be a good thing to be bipolar. Ignore all the people with bipolar disorder who kill themselves, that's just a fluke?

I agree with all of this.
I am one of those impaired aspies.
I don't work, I live at home and fail at relationships. There is more to it like sensorary issues and social issues but I'll leave it at that.
I think Asperger's is so overdiagnosed that some people that are diagnosed are so mild that they aren't in any way impaired with it. This is probably where the whole idea that it's a blessing comes from.

Oh and to whoever said that 100 is very low IQ score I'm about 3-5 points lower. And here I was thinking 60 was a low IQ score...silly me. (Note: sarcasm).


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21 Nov 2009, 11:21 pm

JohnnyD017 wrote:
Why do people think their skills are always directly related to their condition? I have talent in areas like drawing/writing but take the condition away and id still be good at them, just without the downsides. The 'difference' thing confuses me.
I think it's because people with autism have, as part of their difference, a wide scatter of skill levels. Even on the IQ tests you can see this; most NTs have a performance/verbal gap of five points or less, but it's not uncommon to see an autistic person with twenty or thirty points gap (that's two or three standard deviations--huge!). Even when your gap is only ten points or so, your sub-tests can show that you're below average in one thing, while at a relatively closely related thing you're untestable because you reached the end of the test without a mistake.

And that's just the IQ test. Extend that to daily life, and suddenly you get odd disparities like people who can read five pages in a minute but can't do simple addition; people who can work a computer but can't cook a meal; people who can write a novel but can't dress themselves. Half or more of the world's true savants are autistic; many of the autistics who aren't actually savants still have some skill level far above average, or at least far above their personal average. Autistic brains are incredibly specialized; and it doesn't make much sense to say that the deficits are part of autism, but the savant skills aren't. The presence of special skills, however, does not change the status of autism as a disability. However well you do some things, you are still delayed in some necessary skills expected of you, and that is what makes a disability.


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22 Nov 2009, 12:06 am

I was reading this forum for a long time and came to a firm conclusion that the most disabling aspect of Asperger`s Syndrome is

DSM-IV-TR wrote:
Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior

It is (of course) especially disabling in situations that require a great deal of flexibility, such as communication with other human beings.