Any aspies have trouble understanding concept of war?

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UrchinStar47
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07 Apr 2010, 12:18 pm

Raptor wrote:
Look at it however you want but there will always be war. Well, always as long as there are people left to make and fight wars. It's just the nature of us humans so it's not going to change.
That being the case then the best defense against a nation being attacked or provoked is having a strong military.

Weakness invites attack.

Si vis pacem, para bellum: If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

I agree, and I would like to point out that Switzerland proves that concept better than any other country.



jc6chan
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07 Apr 2010, 12:57 pm

dt18 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
Ambivalence wrote:
NATO is a defensive alliance; member states are required to act (as far as I understand it) if any of their fellow member states are attacked on home soil in Europe or North America; the Taliban aided and abetted such attacks and are therefore a legitimate target for NATO.


Everyone knows that the Taliban just hated the US for their support of Israel. Now, all other NATO countries are on Bin Laden's "target list". Nice one Canada!! If I die in a subway attack in Toronto one day, I shall say, "why did we have to fight the Taliban? They didn't target us."

You do realize Toronto has a pretty big Muslim/Arab population, right? I would think that in itself would put Toronto at a much higher risk of a subway attack.

Just because a place has arabs/muslims doesn't mean that it is dangerous. At the time when suicide bombing attacks were common in Israel, most of the suicide bombers were not perpetrated by arabs/muslims living in Israel but a lot of them were from the West Bank, where life was getting miserable for various reasons.



ursaminor
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07 Apr 2010, 5:38 pm

All murder is immoral.
All people who kill should go to jail.
The intention does not matter.
The circumstances do not matter.



Horus
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07 Apr 2010, 11:50 pm

jc6chan wrote:
dt18 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
Ambivalence wrote:
NATO is a defensive alliance; member states are required to act (as far as I understand it) if any of their fellow member states are attacked on home soil in Europe or North America; the Taliban aided and abetted such attacks and are therefore a legitimate target for NATO.


Everyone knows that the Taliban just hated the US for their support of Israel. Now, all other NATO countries are on Bin Laden's "target list". Nice one Canada!! If I die in a subway attack in Toronto one day, I shall say, "why did we have to fight the Taliban? They didn't target us."

You do realize Toronto has a pretty big Muslim/Arab population, right? I would think that in itself would put Toronto at a much higher risk of a subway attack.

Just because a place has arabs/muslims doesn't mean that it is dangerous. At the time when suicide bombing attacks were common in Israel, most of the suicide bombers were not perpetrated by arabs/muslims living in Israel but a lot of them were from the West Bank, where life was getting miserable for various reasons.



Yeah.....and just because a place has Americans doesn't mean it's dangerous either.

Though many in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indoneisa, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicuragua, Columbia, Bolivia, Peru, Brazil, Chile, The Phillpines, Iraq, Okinawa, etc....might disagree with that :wink:



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08 Apr 2010, 1:28 am

ursaminor wrote:
All murder is immoral.
All people who kill should go to jail.
The intention does not matter.
The circumstances do not matter.

So American soldiers who killed Nazi soldiers who were responsible for running the concentration camps whould go to jail?



DavidM
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08 Apr 2010, 1:35 am

Couldn't be assed reading this whole thread but I hope somebody mentioned the most obvious thing about war:

War is when old men decide to send their young men off to another land to kill other young men.



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08 Apr 2010, 2:25 am

jc6chan wrote:
At the time, I was confused and thought to myself, "Why are we respecting these soldiers? These soldiers kill people and I was always taught that killing people is bad and that we shouldn't even hurt anyone." This was the problem I had. I was taught these rules of "Don't kill people" and so I thought that these soldiers were bad people and they were all criminals.


Don't blame the soldiers for that. Blame the brass and the politicians and royalty or whatever else got them into that war in the first place. You are referencing WW1 with th poppy thing correct? Applies ESPECIALLY to WWI. Give the international bankers' role in funding and prolonging the war. And arms industries, erc

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Of course, now I undoterstand more of why these soldiers are respected as they fought for what they (or the country at least) believed was right. But I still have trouble with this whole concept of placing special honour for these soldiers.


What the ruling class of said country considers 'right'. Not to mention 'what is a country' - e.g. French Quebecois fighting for the English forces in WWI - even if France was an ally of the UK then. Also see black USA soldiers.

Quote:
The current war in Afghanistan:
I can see that Canadian (and other NATO) soldiers have good intentions and they are actually helping to establish what is believed to be a "stable democracy" for Afghanistan. They are conducting to reconstruction efforts. However, I still question if the best course of action was to actually destroy the Taliban regime. I don't understand what gives us (NATO countries) the right to just destroy the pre-9/11 government in Afghanistan. Another thing I don't like is how, in my opinion, we are actually demonizing the Taliban by forcing them to use suicide bombing tactics. If we didn't destroy their government, there would not be so much suicide attacks. I'm sure that if someone were to attempt to destroy a weak Western democracy, some people would resolve to terrorism to defend democracy.


foreign policy of great powers [USA] to access central asian oil and bypass russian controlled pipes.

Quote:
WW1:
Now, why do we even treat the soldiers of ww1 to the same level as those who fight in Afghanistan? People say these soldiers "fought for their country" and I understand that these soldiers needed some degree of bravery.


They were brave. They had to in order to get slaughtered in such numbers by ignorant and backwards-ass generals who didn't factor in what machine guns do to charging soldiers and other new-fangled technology. The common soldiers did the fighting and dying and the generals did their pomp-and-circumstance BS. No wonder the Russian empire fell apart and Germany and France had revolutions and mutinies. Too bad they didn't succeed

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But I ask this question: In what way did Canadian soldiers actually do something good to the world? Did they help civilians in Europe better their lives? Well, maybe they did help wounded civilians as a result of stray bullets, I don't know, but overall, I don't see what good they did. They contributed to the bullets flying back and forth across no-man's land, thats all I know. And so why do we treat soldiers of the past like those we treat today?


Propaganda. Nationalism. And damn ignorance. Also whitewashing. Oh, and they died in a lot higher numbers so people want to cover it or BS that they died for a worthy cause.....instead of admitting they wasted a lot of peoples' lives needlessly and heaped the blame on the surviving central power.

EDIT: in occupied parts of France the Germans basically conscripted people for labor and did jack all the peoples' s**t.....basically draftin and lootin...so arguably that's a "good thing". But German treatment of occupied lowland countries in WWI did not be an exceptionally 'bad' thing - even with the incidents that took place

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I don't know, I guess I would describe myself as close to a pacifist. I do believe that sometimes action needs to be taken like the brutal regime of Adolf Hitler. but honestly, how many wars are really about liberating people from an evil regime?


Not a lot......a lot of wars are about colonialism and imperialism and opening markets to foreign powers.....hey they're doing that TODAY. They did that 200 years ago and simply changed the BS reason.


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08 Apr 2010, 2:30 am

War can be explained through animal behaviour. Observe chimps in the wild.



Warsie
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08 Apr 2010, 2:42 am

justMax wrote:
War is a financial transaction between nations.


Also see "the blunt end of politics" -e.g. "War is a means of an end" (at least) when nothing else works (well supposedly). A very blunt means of settling disputes and a last measure [lol]

[quote="irishwhistle" But how it stands to reason that the question of correct choices can be settled through the sacrifice of the time and very lives of your own citizens, I'm sure I don't understand. They do what they're supposed to do, but who decided it was what they were supposed to do?[/quote]

Ideally the people should decide that. But the ruling class - bankers, corporations, etc tend to use national armies as private thugs to expand upon and build their empires - or HELP with it. And unless aliens are invading and hell bent on human domination.....not needed too badly

[quote="Ambivalence"]
NATO is a defensive alliance; member states are required to act (as far as I understand it) if any of their fellow member states are attacked on home soil in Europe or North America; the Taliban aided and abetted such attacks and are therefore a legitimate target for NATO.

Though by the same token, so are Riyadh and Islamabad. :? [/quote]

Not to mention Florida and factions of the US Federal Government...

Quote:
More than likely - but it wouldn't necessarily make them right to do so. The Caucasus (Nagorny-whatsitsname, the bit of Armenia that's inside Azerbaijan) and Balkans are somewhat relevant examples.


Nagorny-Kabarakh


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08 Apr 2010, 4:14 am

War - Huh! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!


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08 Apr 2010, 7:08 am

I'm pretty sure most people who are NOT autistic have a hard time understanding the concept of war too.

Essentially it's when greed uses fear to allow murder to redistribute wealth, the plan is for the original greed to benefit from the redistribution but not seldom some other greed steps up and takes over. Everyone loses, but because greed is blind, it keeps happening.



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10 Apr 2010, 6:24 pm

War is easy to define. Haven´t you read General Carl von Clausewitz (1780-1831) the military theoretician from the Prussian Army? War is the continuation of policy by other means or "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means. ..." ( On War).



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10 Apr 2010, 7:24 pm

Does anyone grasp the concept of war? As an American, I fully support our troops and our leadership as they fight those who want to kill us. But why do they want to kill us in the first place? Isn't there a more civilized way to air their grievances? There certainly are ways that wouldn't make them inflame the cycle of violence.



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10 Apr 2010, 8:33 pm

jc6chan wrote:
I don't understand what gives us (NATO countries) the right to just destroy the pre-9/11 government in Afghanistan.

The Taliban was harboring some of the terrorists who plotted the September 11 attacks, and they refused to hand them over. The United States considered this an act of aggression, and treaties establishing NATO allowed them to join in as well.



dupertuis
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11 Apr 2010, 2:26 am

NeantHumain wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
I don't understand what gives us (NATO countries) the right to just destroy the pre-9/11 government in Afghanistan.

The Taliban was harboring some of the terrorists who plotted the September 11 attacks, and they refused to hand them over. The United States considered this an act of aggression, and treaties establishing NATO allowed them to join in as well.


The Taliban was SAID TO BE harboring some of the terrorists who plotted 911.

The people who SAID this ordered the attack on Afghanistan.

Seventeen of the nineteen 911 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, so in retaliation they targeted...who?


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