organ donation
But the rituals are a social construct.
I think you may have missed my entire point. I get everything you've said. What I am saying is the specific custom of putting your loved one into a sealed casket and burying them where they will inevitably be liquefied from heat and lack of ventilation for the gases associated with decomposition is insane and illogical. Let's not even go into the practice of getting the casket padded and lined with satin so your loved one can be 'comfortable' while they cook.
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
Last edited by TeaEarlGreyHot on 12 Jul 2010, 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No, I get exactly what you say. You're saying that it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money to bury a body that's just going to rot anyway, right?
But they're not buying comfort for the body; nor (unless they have odd beliefs about the afterlife) are they buying the casket for the benefit of the person whose body is in it. They're buying emotional support for themselves.
The benefits of what people buy with money don't always have to be tangible benefits. These are people who, their whole lives, have looked at a face that gave them information about the person who they loved. When they think of that person, they think of that body. They still have emotional ties to that person; and they desperately wish to connect with that person. They can't connect with the soul; so they do their best to somehow connect with the body. Those social bonds are strong as steel; they can't be broken just because the person is dead.
And so your NT, with his whole life based around connecting with people, is left with the body of a person he used to connect with. Old habits are hard to break. Emotions are just as real as material objects. Feelings have just as much of an impact on the mind as logic does.
Everything people do, even supposedly irrational things, they do for a reason. Logic dictates only that the body should be dealt with in a way that stops it from becoming a health hazard; but funerals are not done for logical reasons. The reasons behind funerals are psychological, social, and emotional. Without funerals, people would have more difficulty grieving. People would, paradoxically, be more frightened of death.
Why do we use burial, rather than some other method? That one's cultural. As a culture, we (people from North America and Europe, in this case) have been settled down and farming for a good long time. Farming means being attached to the land; it means passing down the land to your children; it means storing important things on that land. Is it really so unlikely that people who raised crops and animals for a living for hundreds of years would bury their dead in the same land they were so intimately tied to? It was a way of saying, "Here are my ancestors. Here I will be. Here my children will be." It was a way of integrating yourself into your family and your community. That's how people deal with their basic fear of death--they see themselves as part of a larger picture. (Organ donors, incidentally, are doing exactly that by giving permission for their organs to "live on" after them.)
We haven't been industrialized for that long--not nearly long enough for burial to fall out of favor. I think there are many better alternatives; scientific research could use more bodies than it's getting, and there are lots of new options for ecologically safer burials that don't involve so many chemicals or toxic fumes in the air. But even as ecologically questionable as they are, burial customs do serve a purpose. If you were to remove everything but logic from a human being, then sure, they would be irrational; but if you look at the whole social/cultural/emotional picture, they're pretty much essential.
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I was on it (so said yes as I was, but a health condition has forced me out of it.. not really my choice not to be still on the donar register).
Heres some info (you can tell my special interest is medical
People with chronic fatigue immunity dysfunction syndrome have been banned in several countries of the world from donating blood (and not allowed to donate organs either) due to a fairly new virus discovered called Xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus which has been found in far higher amounts in these people than in the normal population.. maybe as high as 80% when in the general community.. it seems to be at about 3%. (i have that condition so arent allowed to donate). This virus has been implanted in the more serious forms of prostate cancer and no one knows yet what else it may be doing (but it goes into the tissues of organs.. been found not only in blood and in prostate cancer but also in respiratory system..and in other places like a female monkeys vagina. (the only female monkey that was in the animal study)
This virus has also been found in higher amounts than normal in those with Autism (i cant remember the amount now..it may of been something like 20%??).. so may be playing a part in some cases of Autism or maybe we are just more susceptable to it. (i dont know if this info is publically available yet.. as i said its a new virus with new research happening.. so more info will soon be coming out and published).
Till it is known just how much more common it is in Autism.. Aspies may want to think twice before donating organs. (as i said.. a disease in which it appears in a large percent..has already been banned in some countries from donating due to this).
I was on it (so said yes as I was, but a health condition has forced me out of it.. not really my choice not to be still on the donar register).
Heres some info (you can tell my special interest is medical
People with chronic fatigue immunity dysfunction syndrome have been banned in several countries of the world from donating blood (and not allowed to donate organs either) due to a fairly new virus discovered called Xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus which has been found in far higher amounts in these people than in the normal population.. maybe as high as 80% when in the general community.. it seems to be at about 3%. (i have that condition so arent allowed to donate). This virus has been implanted in the more serious forms of prostate cancer and no one knows yet what else it may be doing (but it goes into the tissues of organs.. been found not only in blood and in prostate cancer but also in respiratory system..and in other places like a female monkeys vagina. (the only female monkey that was in the animal study)
This virus has also been found in higher amounts than normal in those with Autism (i cant remember the amount now..it may of been something like 20%??).. so may be playing a part in some cases of Autism or maybe we are just more susceptable to it. (i dont know if this info is publically available yet.. as i said its a new virus with new research happening.. so more info will soon be coming out and published).
Till it is known just how much more common it is in Autism.. Aspies may want to think twice before donating organs. (as i said.. a disease in which it appears in a large percent..has already been banned in some countries from donating due to this).
Yep, read a bit about this......if you are interested, google "mitochondrial disease/disfunction in people with autism"......I have fibromyalgia/CFS(EM) and a lot of this starts with the mitochondria. Whether autism is the cause of mitochondrial disease or is more of a co-morbid, I am not sure.
Sorry, off topic.
Mics
Heres some info (you can tell my special interest is medical
People with chronic fatigue immunity dysfunction syndrome have been banned in several countries of the world from donating blood (and not allowed to donate organs either) due to a fairly new virus discovered called Xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus which has been found in far higher amounts in these people than in the normal population.. maybe as high as 80% when in the general community.. it seems to be at about 3%. (i have that condition so arent allowed to donate). This virus has been implanted in the more serious forms of prostate cancer and no one knows yet what else it may be doing (but it goes into the tissues of organs.. been found not only in blood and in prostate cancer but also in respiratory system..and in other places like a female monkeys vagina. (the only female monkey that was in the animal study)
This virus has also been found in higher amounts than normal in those with Autism (i cant remember the amount now..it may of been something like 20%??).. so may be playing a part in some cases of Autism or maybe we are just more susceptable to it. (i dont know if this info is publically available yet.. as i said its a new virus with new research happening.. so more info will soon be coming out and published).
Till it is known just how much more common it is in Autism.. Aspies may want to think twice before donating organs. (as i said.. a disease in which it appears in a large percent..has already been banned in some countries from donating due to this).
Scenario 1:
Organ donor and non-organ donor are brought to a small hospital in the middle of the night in bad shape. The one surgeon on call has the time to save just one of you. There are no other factors to decide which patient to operate on first. Which one do you think they'll let die first?
Scenario 2:
Doctors aren't sure what is wrong with you and can attempt a treatment which could help if they are right, and would kill you if they are wrong. Do you think their judgement here would be affected if they knew you were an organ donor?
Scenario 3:
Huge accident, overturned bus, airline crash, terrorist attack; a hundred people are brought in. They couldn't possibly be all helped all at once, so doctors must decide who to treat first. Some of the accident victims may even need organs themselves, or the hospital has other sick patients who need organs. If doctors made certain choices here and bumped a couple of organ donors to the bottom of the queue, the odds are no one else would ever learn their reasons.
I'm not an organ donor.
But they're not buying comfort for the body; nor (unless they have odd beliefs about the afterlife) are they buying the casket for the benefit of the person whose body is in it. They're buying emotional support for themselves.
The benefits of what people buy with money don't always have to be tangible benefits. These are people who, their whole lives, have looked at a face that gave them information about the person who they loved. When they think of that person, they think of that body. They still have emotional ties to that person; and they desperately wish to connect with that person. They can't connect with the soul; so they do their best to somehow connect with the body. Those social bonds are strong as steel; they can't be broken just because the person is dead.
And so your NT, with his whole life based around connecting with people, is left with the body of a person he used to connect with. Old habits are hard to break. Emotions are just as real as material objects. Feelings have just as much of an impact on the mind as logic does.
Everything people do, even supposedly irrational things, they do for a reason. Logic dictates only that the body should be dealt with in a way that stops it from becoming a health hazard; but funerals are not done for logical reasons. The reasons behind funerals are psychological, social, and emotional. Without funerals, people would have more difficulty grieving. People would, paradoxically, be more frightened of death.
Why do we use burial, rather than some other method? That one's cultural. As a culture, we (people from North America and Europe, in this case) have been settled down and farming for a good long time. Farming means being attached to the land; it means passing down the land to your children; it means storing important things on that land. Is it really so unlikely that people who raised crops and animals for a living for hundreds of years would bury their dead in the same land they were so intimately tied to? It was a way of saying, "Here are my ancestors. Here I will be. Here my children will be." It was a way of integrating yourself into your family and your community. That's how people deal with their basic fear of death--they see themselves as part of a larger picture. (Organ donors, incidentally, are doing exactly that by giving permission for their organs to "live on" after them.)
We haven't been industrialized for that long--not nearly long enough for burial to fall out of favor. I think there are many better alternatives; scientific research could use more bodies than it's getting, and there are lots of new options for ecologically safer burials that don't involve so many chemicals or toxic fumes in the air. But even as ecologically questionable as they are, burial customs do serve a purpose. If you were to remove everything but logic from a human being, then sure, they would be irrational; but if you look at the whole social/cultural/emotional picture, they're pretty much essential.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I do understand burial itself... it's the process of embalming and wanting to preserve the body, and then sticking it into what's essentially an oven that confuses me. lol
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
Organ donor and non-organ donor are brought to a small hospital in the middle of the night in bad shape. The one surgeon on call has the time to save just one of you. There are no other factors to decide which patient to operate on first. Which one do you think they'll let die first?
Scenario 2:
Doctors aren't sure what is wrong with you and can attempt a treatment which could help if they are right, and would kill you if they are wrong. Do you think their judgement here would be affected if they knew you were an organ donor?
Scenario 3:
Huge accident, overturned bus, airline crash, terrorist attack; a hundred people are brought in. They couldn't possibly be all helped all at once, so doctors must decide who to treat first. Some of the accident victims may even need organs themselves, or the hospital has other sick patients who need organs. If doctors made certain choices here and bumped a couple of organ donors to the bottom of the queue, the odds are no one else would ever learn their reasons.
I'm not an organ donor.
They choose based on who needs the medical help the soonest.
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
That's a little naive, don't you think?
I have friends in the healthcare business. (And oh yeah it is a business, at least it is in the US.) I know what I'm talking about.
Besides, what if they can't choose who needs help most? Lacking triage, the organ donor could very well find themselves at the bottom of the queue.
Besides, what if they can't choose who needs help most? Lacking triage, the organ donor could very well find themselves at the bottom of the queue.
I have friends in the healthcare business here in the US, too.
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
apparently the uk is moving towards an 'opt out' rather than 'opt in' system anyway which i think makes alot more sense
I agree, it does make more sense.
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
but they still cant have my eyes
"Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"
Roy Batty
Yes, for some reason, I was unable to agree to donating my eyes. This was, of course, completely irrational and selfish, but I couldn't help it. I just found the idea of someone prying them out of my skull or cutting them open just after I die too grotesque - even though I know the donation would benefit someone else. Internal organs are just mechanical parts that are necessary to keep you going - your eye, your face - they're bound up in your identity too much, I just couldn't stand them being disposed of in any other way than being cleanly destroyed, not mutilated first. I wonder if I would change my mind on this subject, however, if I need a cornea transplant later in life...
