NT's should explain themselves. (A challenge to NT's)

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I think maybe what they're talking about when they say socializing is fun is... exactly what we're talking about when we say our special interests are... well, does anyone here actually call them fun? But you know what I mean.

Then again, when I have a highly successful social encounter, I experience an odd feeling, a feeling which I would not like to feel often, but which is a high-energy, slightly irritating euphoria, comparable to when I read something where every line is interesting, or walking into a room with several things that I consider fun (say, that particular grocery store). I imagine that if I found it easy to achieve, and did not find it tiring and unpleasant, I would do it more often. (As it is, this happens every few months or so. It happened in early December, and then at around Easter, and hasn't happened to me since.) It's like NTs are a group of people who like green, whereas I like blue and black and rarely yellow. So I'm thinking I can kind of see what green is and why they like it so much, only it's not my cup of tea, and in fact I would rather not see green. Yuck, green.

Face it, though. They don't see a need to explain it. After all, they're normal, they experience things the "right" way (the default way, at least). It's the abnormal things that need explanation, to them. (...Not to me, but anyway.)

I think maybe what they're talking about when they say socializing is fun is... exactly what we're talking about when we say our special interests are... well, does anyone here actually call them fun? But you know what I mean.

Then again, when I have a highly successful social encounter, I experience an odd feeling, a feeling which I would not like to feel often, but which is a high-energy, slightly irritating euphoria, comparable to when I read something where every line is interesting, or walking into a room with several things that I consider fun (say, that particular grocery store). I imagine that if I found it easy to achieve, and did not find it tiring and unpleasant, I would do it more often. (As it is, this happens every few months or so. It happened in early December, and then at around Easter, and hasn't happened to me since.) It's like NTs are a group of people who like green, whereas I like blue and black and rarely yellow. So I'm thinking I can kind of see what green is and why they like it so much, only it's not my cup of tea, and in fact I would rather not see green. Yuck, green.

Face it, though. They don't see a need to explain it. After all, they're normal, they experience things the "right" way (the default way, at least). It's the abnormal things that need explanation, to them. (...Not to me, but anyway.)

I was asked some very intrusive questions at school when I was 5 years old.

I have been told that I have brilliant self awareness.
I believe this is because I was questioned and therby forced to self monitor from a very young age. To be fair, the staff genuinely didn't know what to do with me at times, so took it upon themselves to have me under constant survelliance.

Nothing was sacred. I was asked who I was going to play with at playtime. If I didn't play with the required number of people, questions were asked. My private social life was subject to intense scrutiny by teachers and pyschologists. They wondered why I didn't copy everything that everyone else did. They wondered why I had great difficulty joining in the compulary "okey kokey" sessions. They wondered why I enjoyed to keep to myself and mind my own business. They wanted me to gossip like a little girl should. They wanted all of the children to be exactly the same so that they could be herded together for activities and not be any trouble. Dissent wasn't allowed. Doing your own thing wasn't allowed. If you dissented or had different ideas to the main group then, you were deemed to be someone that required psychological intervention.

I noticed that when kids from other cultures joined the school, they were subjected to a similar treatment by peers and teachers. The kids were singled out and asked why they had "funny accents" or behaved in a "different" way.
Definitely a culture clash.

It was thoroughly confusing because I was being taught a completely different set of values at home "keep to yourself" to what I was being taught at school "join in, share your personal details or else".

As I grew up, the adult survelliance continued.
I was told to do a billion extra curricular activities of the adults' choosing or I was a "loser".
I was told that having one interest was "pathological" and "not enough".
I was told that in order to impress employers, I would have to spread myself thinly and be a "well rounded person".

Thanks very much for the (much needed) feedback, leejosepho. I've enjoyed reading your posts in other threads

Well, I guess I have a different perspective because I would not call the very casual and tenuous connections like working at the same office or having kids in the same neighborhood the kind of connections that can form a "bond." Nor do I think that "doing things together" and "hanging out" are bonding experiences. Those are very casual, breezy sort of experiences. Which is why they can turn ugly at the drop of a hat. No one is genuinely invested in the well being of the others in the group, they are only interested in being able to hang out. So if someone in the group is cruel or malicious, no one cares as long as the veneer of agreeableness remains. But if someone is horrified by that person's cruelty and says something, then he/she is the one being unpleasant and rocking the boat. Groups like these have no real solidarity or concern for their membership. And while that may be fine for some, I can't abide indifference to cruelty or the sort of superficial connectedness that is inherent in such a group.. And that is why I don't see them as any meaningful antidote to loneliness. If you are genuinely lonely and say so, to people in a group like this, then you are just a bummer and tiresome.

This is not my experience in these groups at all but you don't believe me. Oh well.

Neighbors, fellow parents and coworkers have come through for me in tough situations and I have come through for them. They have my back and I have theirs. You look from the outside and just assume this isn't possible but our bonds have been tested by circumstance and we have come through for each other.. There is solidarity. There is concern. There is not maliciousness. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false.

I'm not looking from the outside, I'm looking from the inside.

You aren't looking from inside my head and my experience, which is the perspective that the OP asked for. She said, "NT's explain yourselves. Explain why you do these things". When I explain why I join groups, that is my experience. It is not meant to be universal. It is the very personal explanation that Chronos asked for. So when I say that my neighbors, fellow parents and coworkers have my back, that's exactly what I mean. Do you think I'm deluded about my own experience and that my neighbors would turn a blind eye if I were in trouble? I already was. They helped me out. And I helped them out when they were in trouble. This is what Chronos asked for. This is what I gave. My own reasons and own experience, not intended to be universal.

I'm looking from the inside of having been in such groups. I don't doubt that they would help you start your car or watch your children if you had to go out on an emergency. But groups like these don't allow for any dissent or waves within the group itself. So if one member is being catty towards you or someone else (and I can't imagine you saying that that doesn't happen or has never happened even to you) and you ave the audacity to call them on it, then you are instantly an outcast and troublemaker. This happens even if you don't do anything in particular but are just weird and tiresome. I'm not the only one saying this. You can find other pots on WP that say the same thing. Aspies are not generally tolerant of malicious gossipers or superficial friends.

I'm not saying you are not describing your experience, just that your experience seems delusional to those of us who have been in such groups and actually challenged the group's veneer of togetherness and agreeableness That apparently is perfectly fine for NTs, which is why we Aspies (or at least this Aspie) don't understand the desire to be in groups that have only hurt us.

I deleted my post, coming back after some more thought and editing.

Last edited by tenzinsmom on 21 Jul 2010, 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have Aspergers and I move my hands around when I speak - it helps me focus.

It's interesting you interpret NT behaviour as exceptionally insecure. I haven't noticed any NTs being more insecure than people with AS. Often those with AS (including myself) are more insecure, because of being unable to understand what others are thinking, and being aware that what they are thinking of us will affect how they behave towards us. It makes life more unpredictable. Had I been given a simple set of behaviours that would have enabled me to be treated well and not get teased or ostracised in high school, I would have done them, just to make life easier.

With regard to doing things you don't want to do, sometimes it is a trade-off, and you choose the lesser of two evils, because if you don't do it, something worse will occur. It can be a logical, rational decision. I do it often myself, with all sorts of things. I don't want to go to work, but if I don't go I won't get paid, and then I won't be able to afford food and bills. I don't want to wash dishes, but if I don't do it, then I'll have no clean dishes to eat from. And with regard to people, sometimes I make myself do social chitchat with people I don't know, even though I find it hard and don't want to, because if they are people with whom I will have to spend a lot of time, such as future colleagues, it's in my best interest if they like me, because then they will treat me better and it will be easier to work with them.

Bee33, I have been thinking about your post, and I would like to attempt to answer your questions that i have seen you ask about groups.

Ok lets say you join a social group as an aspie who doesnt have great social skills. Not only this but you may have sensory issues too which cause problems. You meet people, they can be friendly at first and then you start getting to know some of them.

What could be happening, unknown to you is that you are making social mistakes all the time that they can see but you cant. They start talking about you when you are not there, saying "Whats up with her?".

You may have some problem, such as what happend to me with some "friends" when they decided to walk down this stale-urine soaked staircase in a parking building, and I had a near meltdown over it. They decided i was the one with the problem, that I should just grow up and deal with the stale, horrible urine puddles everywhere.

Anyway I digress, but what happens is these people talk. Then when they see you again they act all nice. Then next time you unwittingly do something they dont like, they all suddenly attack and it seems to come out of nowhere. But actually it didnt, it just looks like it to you.

Also what could happen is that there is some kind of alpha female. There are nice alphas, and there are bitchy ones. lets say you have a run-in with a bitchy one.. what happens in the group is everyone is forced to take a side.

Of course they will side with the alpha, because 1) Most people in a group wont take on a bitchy alpha, and 2) as the aspie is sometimes an outsider (whether they realise it or not), noone would side with the outsider unless they would want to lose their connections and get themselves evicted from the group.

Perhaps you may get some sympathetic people who gently voice that you have been unfairly treated.

Sometimes, if enough people in a group strongly disagree with the nasty alpha, they themselves will be the one who is shunned.

In many ways it is not the alpha who has the real power in the group,it is the ordinary group members who defer to them and put them in their position.

You may read this and think, ugh, that sucks. but yes it does suck, for the outsider, but it absolutely does not suck for the average person with social skills. They can be protected by groups they are in.

It will seem not to make sense, but it is actually an ancient biological throwback, from when people moved around in tribes and had to learn to fear outsiders, war from neighbouring tribes... etc.

It can even be seen in the animal kingdom, I once watched a documentary about this pack of wolves, and there was this wolf for some reason that didnt fit in, and couldnt be part of the pack.

Also, normal members can be ousted from groups if they do something that makes them in any way different, so it is not only aspies who can bear the brunt of this.

Anyway i hope this has helped answer some questions a bit.

I think many if not most NTs are quite willing to explain if the questions are posed politely. I think it's great that you started a thread to ask these kinds of questions and have every right to ask.

1. Why do you not have special interests?

I do have special interests, I just don't monologue about them, at least not often. When I see people's eyes glazing over I stop talking about the subject nearly every time. I think the big difference between my Aspie kids and me in that regard is that I notice when it's time to stop talking about special interests, not that they have them and I don't.


2. What are these non-verbal cues you are perceiving? Explain them in detail for each social situation.

Now you know that isn't a fair question. Give me a situation and I'm happy to try to explain the cues in that situation.



3. Why do you spend so much time socializing?

I don't. Not all NTs spend a lot of time socializing. We are not more extroverted or introverted than Aspies, we just have an easier time with certain apects of socializing.


4. How do you know when people want to be your close friend if they do not explicitly say so?

It's something that happens over time. When you have a lot of things in common and both enjoy each other's company you seek each other out. If circumstancers and schedules don't get in the way you gradually become close. That's how it works for me.


5. Why do you move your hands when you speak? Do you not feel your words and tone are sufficient?

I have ADHD. I can't hardly stop moving. My Aspie kids also move their hands. I think it's more cultural than Aspie/NT. It doesn't bother me in the least if someone else doesn't use their hands when they speak, I'd not even notice.


6. Why do you feel the need to empathize with fictional characters? Are not only the facts of the story and concepts it attempts to convey important? The characters are not real people and do not require your empathy.

Great question. I empathise with fictional characters and situations because they are similar to real ones. They help me deal with real situations by giving me a non threatening way to think through the real stuff. I find I get more truth from fiction than from non-fiction. Not all NTs would agree with this. Many NTs aren't crazy about fiction.


7. Why do you feel the need to "fit in" to a group?

Because I do. I get lonely when I don't have friends. I also find it helpful to have a group of trusted people to talk over things with. My friends are my advisors, role models, and supporters. I don't feel a need to have a huge number of friends, but would be very sad if I didn't have a few really good ones. I enjoy spending time with lots of people, but don't consider most of them close friends. I find people interesting and stimulating.


8. Why do you all become so insecure in highschool such that you will do things you do not really want to do and say you like things that you do not really like?

Not everybody does that. My 13yo Aspie son does that more than I ever did. I think my 11yo Aspie son won't be that way. At puberty people develop a stronger drive to be socially connected to other people, depending on how extroverted they are. My eldest Aspie son is very extroverted and is really struggling with lonliness more than I ever did.


9. Why do you not write down your unspoken social rules for others? What makes you assume that others know them?

Lots of people have written those down. There are loads of anthropology, sociology and psych books about the subject. There are also books about manners by people like Amy Vanderbilt and Emily Post. Miss Manners is another one I like. My all time favorite book about social rules is called "How to Behave and Why" and lays things out very simply and logically. It is written as a children's book but is really good for anybody of any age.



10. How do you know if someone really wishes to socialize with you or be your friend since many of you will act as a friend when friendship is not desired?

That's not always easy to tell. People will be friendly just to be polite. They may dislike you, or even like you but not really want a deeper friendship. Remember not all NTs are extroverts looking for new friends. That's like saying Aspies can't lie, because some are so literal in their thinking they can't do it.

If someone really wants to be a friend they will make an effort to be with you. If someone isn't willing to do that then they either don't like you, or just don't have time for another friend right now but might want to be a friend at another time.

Azurecrayon,

I'm very amused that you mention the Zombie Survival Guide. I can see my husbands copy of it on his night stand, which I gave him for some occasion before we were married.

Kiley

Last edited by Kiley on 22 Jul 2010, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

@Bee33

My experiences are very similar to yours, but they apply (for me) only in groups based on somewhat "arbitrary" criteria like location, workplace and so on. Rules change when a deeper connection or bond is created. It's one of the reasons I don't like to socialise with neighbours an co-workers unless we have a lot more in common.

My husband offers a lot on input on such issues and I came to understand something - gratuitous meanness and disparaging remarks are rarely tolerated in adult groups. (When I'm saying adult I'm thinking of people mature or confident enough to overcome the desire to have a pariah in the group and I do realise that many adults never grow up to this point). When malicious reactions are tolerated and backed up is because someone is breaking an unwritten or hierarchy rule that everybody in the group (except people like you or me) instinctively understands. Apparently this method is used to pressure others to curb or stop what is seen by the other members as unacceptable behaviour - you know, like shooting someone dirty looks because they're slurping their soup? If you "call them out" on this you'll be outcasted because it will be perceived as reinforcing bad behaviour in others.

Of course, some people are just mean and petty, but that's not really tolerated (assuming we're not talking about a group of bullies or psychopaths) - others just bide their time and wait for the right circumstances to punish such behaviours without risking too much themselves (there can be a lot at stake if you sour your relationship with a neighbour or co-worker)

I'm also baffled by the "belonging to a group" thing. For me closeness is something that can only come about through one-on-one interaction. When people are in a group they tend to take on certain roles or conform to certain characteristics of the group. I'm also not fond of just being "me" in a group. In fact I find it's nearly impossible to be truly genuine and open since I have so many emotional problems. Nobody dares make themselves vulnerable. I can't relate to groups where the sole purpose seems to be to joke and entertain each other. How is it possible to really get to really know people that way? Or do some NTs just not really care for more than the superficial? It often seems like this to me. It seems like 90% of interaction between guys is jokes, and if I'm not in a good mood I really can't make myself laugh at unfunny people. I often feel at my LONLIEST when around such groups.