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bjcirceleb
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09 Feb 2011, 2:35 am

It is important to remember that Guide Dogs are only one type of service dog. There are also those for physical disabilities, who do retrieve, pull doors open, etc and these are very much natural dog behaviours. Think of fetching balls and playing tug!! Hearing dogs are very easy to train, you are just asking them to come and tell you when they hear something, something that is very natural in dogs to some degree. But hearing dog programs have never succeded in creating breeding programs. The dogs they need are simply not something you can raise. Most dogs when they get used to a noise, ignore this, these dogs have to never ignore noises and the average puppy raiser would go nuts trying to reinforce those behaviours. The dogs that don't ignore noises are usually hper sensitve and fearful of them and you cannot have that either. Dogs do many things naturally, sniffing, fetching, herding, etc and in many ways what is expected of guide dogs is counter to that.

Guide dog programs start with the top breeding, but how they raise those litters is also incredibly crucial. Most guide dog schools do not desex dogs until very late in training, often just being being partnered with a blind handler. This is to ensure that the best of the best become breeders. You need to ensure that the dogs you are breeding have the traits that you want. Research has shown for instance that the part of the brain in guide dogs that deals with sight is slightly more enlarged than in that of other well breed dogs of the same breed. Not something you can plan for, but it is something that does appear to have happened over time. Sure they still see like dogs, but they do appear to have the best of the best eyes. The best guide dogs are taken from the training program and used as breeders this is the first step in the process. They are fed on the best of the best food, kept in top physical shape and given appropraite exercise, rest, etc, etc. They live with families in the community, but they usually insist on someone being home at least part time as they will not have the dogs left alone for long periods of time.

The program that my dog is from has all the breeding btiches spend each heat cycle at the training centre. This is partly to ensure their safety, a male dog can smell a b***h on heat for up to 20 km, and also to not put the volunteer handlers through the stress of looking after the b***h at those times. They are in yards the size of basketball courts during the day with other b*****s and volunteers who pet and play with them. They sleep in the whelping rooms even when not being bred from, as it means that it becomes their second home and they will not be stressed when the pups do come. They are walked twice a day around the grounds by vet nurses. They are bred from every 12-18 months, and once mated they are back to their carers in the community. They come back to the training centre 10 days before the birth, as this means they have had plenty of time to relax and adjust to being back at the centre before the pups are born. They also go through a stress faze about 5 days before the birth and this is more likely if they are in a stressful environment. The b*****s are massaged every day as we know that this touch goes through to the pups and they feel that touch and get used to it to some degree. The welping rooms are totally climit controlled, and have closed circuit TV and two way mirrors and the like so they can have total privacy which is what dogs really do need to whelp, but can also be monitored so that veterinary intervention can take place if needed. They know all the staff that will assist them as they are the only ones to look after them when they are at the centre. The pups are handled each and every day by vet nurses and they do special neuro stimulation exercises with them to get them used to touch and small amounts of stress, it is about building up the brains ability to cope with stress. At 10 days of age they are moved from the whelping rooms and into puppy play rooms. In those rooms the b*****s can come and go as she pleases allowing them to naturally be away form her when it would normally happen. They are taken out of the whelping box and placed on a thin vet bed, which is surrounded by artifical grass. When dogs naturally begin to toilet on their own they attempt to do so off their bed. This means the first steps they take to toilet will put them on artifical grass and this is what we want to encourage, to get them to toilet in the right place from word go. They have sound effects played at different times throughout the day so from the very first moment their ears open they will be hearing the various sounds they will hear in daily life, while still giving them time to be pups and have quiet sleep times, etc. They have teams of volunteers that come in and start working with them from 10 days of age, initially just petting them, handling them, etc. By the time they go to puppy raisers at 7 weeks of age they have been handled by over 200 different people, of all different ages, genders, nationalities, sizes, etc, etc. They are taken to various parts of the grounds and get placed on every manner of different surfaces, stones, concrete, grass, asphelt, gravel, rocks, lino, carpet, etc, etc. They have different things to climb over, play with, etc, etc. They have a cat that lives permanently on site and it is bought in to spend time with them every second day from 3 weeks of age. Other carefully selected and health checked dogs of different breeds are bought in to play with them from 5 weeks of age. At 5 weeks they begin to wear collars for short periods each day, and at 6 weeks they begin to be walked on a leash. They are beginning to toilet outside if possible, have some concept of the command they will use to go, and will use a peice of artifical turf inside if they need to overnight, etc. Their mother does not sleep with them for the last week they are there and for the last two nights they are in pairs or threes with just one or two other littermates so they get used to not being in the huge group when they go to the puppy raiser. The seleced puppy raiers will spend time with them from 5 weeks of age so they know the person. They are weaned onto solid food in invidual bowls. Initally they will lick it from a vet nurses hand and then when they are eating they will all be given named bowls and taught from day one to only eat their own food. They never compete with their littermates for food, they are allowed to eat in peice. If they jump up on a person the person walks away and ignores them and this happens from day one. They are never given the chance to learn to jump it, it is simply ignored. If they make too mcuh noise, the quiet pups are given attention, taken out for walks, etc, etc. This is all done for only an hour or so a day, they have plenty of time to be pups, to play with each other, to learn bite inhibition from their mother and to sleep as only puppies can sleep. They go to puppy raisers toilet trained to pet dog standard, happy with a collar and lead on and not afraid of a lead, they know how to sit and to wait for food to be put down and to not jump on people, all things that will be reinforced. Our puppy raisers have training sessions before they get the pups, their houses are checked out, and they must be in the hands of adults and a primary adult is the only one to walk them on a lead, this person must be home most of the time, and they must not have kids under school age, as they need to be able to dedicate enough time to the pup. They are checked every week by fully qualifed instructors and taken to different places very slowly at first, being carried to get used to noises, smells, etc. They learn to walk on a lead without sniffing before they walk in public places so they are not expected to do things they are not ready to do. They never toilet with their puppy jackets on and know that jacket means work. They only wear the jackets for an hour or so a day initally. They are never allowed on furniture, to jump up on anything. They are never outside unsupervised. They are left alone on regular occassions, but only for periods of up to 3 hours a day. They do not accompany the puppy raiser on errands as the raiser cannot train the dog while shopping, banking, etc, etc. They are taken to a variety of different vet clinics regularly, just to be petted and to get attention so they see them as great places to go to. They have full body handling every single day so they are happy to be handled, to have a blind person try to figure them out, etc. The blind person is taught to put drops in ears, eyes, flea prevention on, to pick up after them, etc, etc. When they are with puppy raisers walking if a stick is on the ground, they will be walked around it not over it. Puppy raisers do ony teach basic obedience, but they proof those behaviours like nothing else. Once one command is proofed it is much easier to proof others. It is about the dogs understanding that sit means sit, no matter where I am, what is happening, the noise, smells, food, other dogs, toys, etc, etc. They only every cross roads at the correct spot and never walk on a no sound. They are taught to walk on the left hand side in a straight line with a slight pull to the lead with their back legs equal to the raiers feet, the position they will be in in harness. They train them all on the left to begin with, as most people are right handed and this allows the blind person to have their dominant hand free. The program I am with will train the dog to work on the right side if it is more appropraite for the person concerned. I am not aware of any dog that has not learned to be wary of moving cars, they have the traffic skills of a 3-4 year old child, that is how it is explained to us. A 3-4 year old does have some concept of cars and not going when they are there, etc, but they do not cross the road the way we do, they cannot judge speed, distance, etc, etc and this is what they feel about the dogs. They really do have some concept, but they do not know what the public thinks they know and what they make out if that makes sense.

It is a very long and slow process, that starts from the perfect dog parents and goes on. If at least 60% of the litter do not make the grade, they will not breed from that combination (male and female) again if that makes sense. If they have a really successful litter they will mate the same dogs again. They regularly share sperm with other guide dog schools and do every year or so send over a female breeder so as to ensure that they are not inbreeding. The breeders must have perfect hip and elbow scores, etc. Here our hip and elbow scores are scored on a scale of 0-15, with 0 being perfect. They will train dogs that score up to 2 on either hip and 1 on elbows, but if they do not score 0 for each of them, they will be desexed and become guide dogs, they will never be breeding stock unless they are perfect. They are all checked by veterniary opthamologists at 6 weeks, 6 months, 12 months and 18 months of age to ensure that their eyes are perfect. They rarely if ever remove dogs from the program before the end of the puppy raising stage. They do at times give dogs to sniffer dog programs, even though they need dogs that are hyper, that sniff everything in sight, jump up on things and the like. The fact is the best breeding, raising and training programs simply cannot change the nature of some dogs!! They give some of the really high quality dogs that passed the temperament and health checks but did not have guide dog material in them to programs for physical disabilites. The other high quality ones are given as pets to blind children and adolescents and other people with disabilites, as well trained pets, to help at home and the like, and those that are not suitable to any of that are initaly offered back to puppy raisers and if not sold to the public.



bjcirceleb
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09 Feb 2011, 2:57 am

doeintheheadlights wrote:
bjcirceleb wrote:
When she is off duty she is playful and runs around like any other dog, and will interact with anyone else, any other animals, etc, etc. She has 2 very distinct personalities, on duty and off duty and she knows that.


Just out of curiosity, what is your dog like off duty? Most working dogs I see are absolutely bonkers when they aren't working. They're hyper, super playful, so full of life, and a little mischievous. Those are the traits that I always look for in puppies when I'm picking my dogs for both Schutzhund and agility, and usually that's what I think signifies a dog that has a lot of potential to be a great working dog. Is your dog similar to that off duty, or more mellow?


Given my autism, she is very placid when off duty compared to many of them and she has never barked, which is why she was chosen for me. But that does not mean she does not have a severe case of mulitple personality disorder!! At the park she will run like a crazed dog and not stop for ages, and she loves people, but is also really well behaved around them. She will walk up to them, but never jump and never shove herself on them. But off duty she would ask for attention from anyone, walk up to everyone she sees. She loves playing with other dogs and if she comes across a dog that is ball crazed she is very offended. She loves balls and other toys, but not if other dogs or people are around. But the highlight of her life is her harness. Get out the lead and no harness and she comes warily as though is that all I get!! She usually refuses to go to a park until she has worn her harness for the day. She is very curious about everything and if something is near her she hasn't seen or heard she wants to investigate it, sniff it out, etc. but she does so in a mellower way to the most of the dogs from the program, but she would never leave something univestigated. But she would never try and grap something, eat something, etc, she just watches it intensly and sniffs it. Nothing at all fazes her, a bomb could go off and she would say is that all it is, and I need that, given how anxious that I am. Basically she has an inside and outside personality as well as a working and non working one. I do voluntary work half a day a week in an office and she is off duty there and spends the whole time trying to get pets from them all. They took me out for lunch recently to say thankyou and were totally amazed that she totally ignored them once the harness was on, and how she took control immediately so to speak, even when they were around. If they talked to her, she would ignore them, but when that harness is off, she can lie around the office and walk to them, and the like, but she is still full of interaction. If she is not getting any attention from anyone she lies in the middle of the major walkway to ensure that no one can walk past her without interacting with her!! ! She is miscrevious in her own way, not the way many of them are, not in a bouncy boisterous way, but nothing gets past her and no one gets past her without giving her attention. She simply does it in a well behaved and silent way, in some ways more cheeky than that which is outward!!



ASdogGeek
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09 Feb 2011, 7:10 pm

bjcirceleb wrote:
Not all dogs have the temperament suited to be a working dog. The vast majority of dogs will not be comfortable in public places. You have to think about the long hours that are expected of them, that they will constantly have people yelling and screaming around them, they will have kids come and pull their tails, etc, etc. I have had kids shove pencils up my dogs nose. It is up to my dog to take whatever is put onto her and to turn to me and to say "can you please work this out for me". In order to be a working dog they have to believe that everybody loves them. My dog thinks that the whole world is her best friend. BUT she also feels that helping me is more important than anything else. When she is off duty she is playful and runs around like any other dog, and will interact with anyone else, any other animals, etc, etc. She has 2 very distinct personalities, on duty and off duty and she knows that. She knows that on duty means I can never go to the toilet no matter how much I need to, I cannot interact with others, I cannot play, I cannot make a sound, I cannot do this, I cannot do that. Any dog can have basic obedience training, but the fact is what is required of a working dog is not something that all dogs can do. It does not matter if someone pulls her tail or a wheelchair runs over her paw, she is working and simply has to take that stuff, and she does. What these dogs go through on a daily basis is not something you would want to put your worst enemy through at times, and if it was not that my dog loved every second of it, I would seriously question what I ask of her. The fact is she is only really happy when that harness is on. It is the highlight of her life. Yes she loves to play, yes she loves to run with other dogs, and to interact with people and to get lots of belly rubs, but to her the highlight of her life is having that harness on and having to focus her energy 110%. Most dogs are more than content to lay back and just take a walk once or twice a day, to be able to sniff when they want to and simply ask to go outside when they need toilet. You also need to recognise that dogs sniff to find out about the world and when in public they cannot do that. They cannot walk past food places and sniff, they cannot try to get food off the floor, and it is not about being told to leave it, it is about not trying and not being tempted to do it in the first place. These are not dogs that are asked to hold a down stay for 20 minutes while the handler is out of sight, they have to be able to hold a down stay for 4 hours at least while everything under the sun goes on around them. It is not about being able to toilet outside, it is about being able to fly in the cabin of an aircraft from one side of the world to the other without going. It is about being able to remain cool, calm and collected while a gunman shoots and holds up a bank, so as to not get their human partner in any more danger than they are already in. They cannot show the slightest bit of aggression as it does not matter what happens they have to tolerate it. They have to be able to be led away from their handler from the scene of an accident by a fireman in full uniform, etc and without battering an eyelid. Most dogs would rigthly be concerned about a fireman in full gear, and to then be having the person they love the most lying hurt and this alien looking creature leading them away from that person that is not easy for the average person, let alone a dog.

Technically you do not have to have a dog registered and tested to be a service dog in the US. But public places do have rights and if you want to complain about what they have done, you do have to prove the dogs training in a court of law. Standing up in court and saying the dog is trained because I said so, is not going to hold, nor is saying that I am disabled, because I said so. You need to have an incredibly long paper trail to make sure that you do have all the evidence you need if you ever are challenged. The dog must meet public access standards and it must be task trained and those tasks must help you with activities of daily living that you are unable to do for yourself because of your disability.

If you want to get advice about owner training, legal requirements, etc, etc then the best place to go is Service Dog Central. BUT before you start out on any training you have to decide what you will do if the dog will not make the grade. The simple fact is not all dogs can make the grade, what is expected of them is not something all can do, no matter how much you want it. They also have to be physically up to the task and the majority of dogs are not. Guide/Seeing Eye dog programs have extensive selective breeding programs and specialised socialisation and training that goes on from birth with the best trainers in the world and then only 50% of the dogs make the grade, not because they cannot guide, but because of what is expected of them in public places and the stress it would put them under. To claim that you will be able to pick the right dog and train it right so that it does work out is incredibly naive and shows that you have no concept of what is really involved.
http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/

wow you seem to be against owner training. I owner trained Nimrodel and she is a WONDERFUL service dog! Also anyone who IS dedicated to learning about and has had experince with dogs CAN pick dogs who seem to have a good temperment for the job. I am owner training my next SD because I feel better training my own dog. I am majoring in dog training. quite frankly anybody willing to try and take on owner training I apluad them. it does require a LOT of work and traiing ut it is well worth it! as far as teathering goes it is a good method for shopping in crowded areas and NO RESPONCABLE parent or organiation would ever tell you to tie the kid to the dog andlet them go oiut on thier own!


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bjcirceleb
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10 Feb 2011, 1:52 am

If your dog is so "WONDERFUL" then why do you need to use a head collar on her. Any trained dog does not need to use training aides to be controlled by a human. The fact is a head collar is simply that a training aide, and a trained dog does not need an aide, they are afterall, trained!! ! And to then say that a dog that cannot even walk on a loose leash is safe to be tied to a child leaves a lot to be desired. Afterall I am yet to know of any of these programs that do not place dogs without a head collar or some other training aide on them.

There is nothing wrong with owner training, but you have to face the facts that not all dogs can make the grade. You claim that you pick a dog at 8 weeks of age, who can make the grade. If that is the case, then WHY do you not share that information with other service dog programs. I mean we have professionals, who have DECADES of training dogs and working with them and they cannot pick them out, how can you as the average person. I agree owner training can work well in some cases, but the fact is even you have not said what you will do if your next dog does not make the grade, you have simply said it will make the grade. How can you guarantee it will not have major health issues, etc. The fact is the best breeders and the best health checks before mating cannot guarantee that none of the litter will not have major health issues.

Why not tether the child to the adult. WHY do you need to tie the child to the dog. You are assuming that no dog ever makes mistake. You clearly have not come across a tethered child and dog, when the dog did do what all dogs do and that is make a mistake, and drag the kid along the floor, when the dog got so distracted as to rip the lead out of the parents hand. Sure my dog has never pulled a lead from my hand, but it does not mean that she can't. Every single one of these programs have pictures of the dogs and children tied together in public places without any adult holding the lead. No one is physically controlling that dog at that stage. No dog is so well trained as to never ever need a lead. What if the dog got distracted at that moment and took off, who is going to stop it then. The only way to physically control a dog is to hold the lead and in the ideal situation the parents would also be tethered to the dogs, that would then make it safer to use, yes. The fact is children have rights and that involves the right not to be tied to an animal. ALL dogs make mistakes, just like all humans do. Every single one of us was taught not to swear, it does not mean we have never done it. The same goes for dogs. Every single dog will make a mistake at some stage. Sure only a stupid parent would let a young child out alone with a dog, but the fact is, in every single one of these programs websites they have pictures of children tied to dogs, without any adult holding the lead. That is assuming that those dogs can work under voice controls and never ever need a leash, which is plain stupid and niave in and of itself. Sure my dog is trained to work offlead and is tested in that every year when we are re-evaluated, but that does not mean that I would ever be stupid enough to let her off lead at a bus stop and yet we have plenty of pictures on these tether dog websites of these kids tied to dogs on main streets and the like without anyone holding the leash. The fact is people have been killed while being tied to a well trained dog that got distracted. If a kid needs tethering then why not tether it to an adult. The whole reason these kids accept tethering and not holding hands is that they cannot handle human touch. Understanding the most basic aspects of autism would allow anyone to know that.

By the way, would you be willing to have your dog independently tested to ensure that it does meet minimum standards. Afterall people have to have licences to drive a car, why not have a licence to have a service dog, to ensure the dog is trained to minimum standards. I respect peoples right to train their own dog, but I do expcet it to be tested the way my dog has been. No one has the right to drive a car, just beacuse they feel like it, they have to have a licence first and in my opinion the same should happen with service dogs. That way businesses really would know what dogs are allowed in and what ones are not, and it would clear up everything for everyone.



doeintheheadlights
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10 Feb 2011, 5:59 am

ASdoggeek, did you get Nim from a breeder or shelter? If it was from a breeder, how did you find a suitable one and did they breed working dogs? I have to say I doubt you can be 100% confident that the 8 week old puppy you pick out is going to be working dog material. I know from Schutzhund that a puppy that may seem like they have great potential turns out to have a small problem that enables them to become suitable for the job. There are loads of people in my Schutzhund club that very frequently pick out a puppy who turns out to be unable to compete in the Schutzhund ring. One person I know now is working with his GSD who is gun shy, and has just made the decision that he will be unable to compete in Schutzhund. This is a dog who is from working lines and was bred specifically for the Schutzhund sport, but very rarely are breeders of service dogs available to the public.

I'm sure that your dog is a suitable service dog for you, but it seems that you already have quite a bit of experience with training dogs as you are going to university for it. Most people don't have that experience, and I think it's kind of irresponsible for them to try to train their own dog and expect it to make the service dog mark. Training dogs is an art where even the tiniest mistake can leave you a big problem. For people who have never trained service dogs before, you're bound to make mistakes, and with service dogs those mistakes can very well endanger a person's welfare.



ASdogGeek
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10 Feb 2011, 12:41 pm

I use a halt because I like it she doesn't need it for me it is a preference thing normal collars and harnesses stress me out to much.

Yes I would have Nim independently screened and know she would pass she is exceptionally obedient the thing is it is pointless as she is 8 now and will be retiring in a year or two due to recent health issues CHD and osteoarthritis.

I can't garentee Pippin will make the grade but I have a lot of confidence he will and if he doesn't I have a plan t go to wilder wood dogs for a SD. I don
T suggest owner training with out a private trainer unless you have experience training I have one I reference to a lot especially with Nim's recent health issues. I know there is no garentee Pippin will be heLthy but I have spent 4 years researching breeders and been in contact with mine for 3 of those years.I have done everything I can to ensure he is healthy now we have to wait and see but I have faith things will work out. If you have an organization willing to test Pippin if I decide he has made the grade I would be more then happy to have him testEd. Your right owner training isn't for the average person but I have been going to school to train and successfully trained Nimrodel she haas been working for 4 years with no problems 2 screw ups in the early phases but she never causes trouble she is well behaved obedient and does her tasks accurately no matter what. Also some families shouldn't have ads one oerson told me she had 1 dog for 2 kids. I don't trust most autism service dog organizations only trust wilder wood how old is your sd


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bjcirceleb
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12 Feb 2011, 1:32 am

Finding a decent private trainer to work with is as difficult if not more difficult to finding a good program. It is also much more risky for someone who does not know and understand dogs at all. It is all well and fine to say they have a trainer to call one, but they need someone there at all times during some instances of the raising and training of a dog. It is also assuming that they will be able to pick the right dog to begin with. At the absolute minimum they need to find a good trainer and have the trainer involved in the selection of the dog, but it rarely if ever works out that way. They fall in love with a dog which has definately not got the temperament for service dog work, as they had no idea at all of how to choose to dog to begin with. They start training the dog themsevles, problems develop and then they go searching for a trainer to help them, and they keep searching until they find one who says that they will work with the dog they have. Many of the good ones would come in, assess the dog and tell them the truth, that it cannot work and cause they don't want to hear that, they simply keep searching until they find one who says what they want to hear, and then the dog just remains in training for years on end. And all the bad behaviours are excused as the dog is still in training!! Then the question is who decides when the dog is in training and when it is trained?? They also use the excuse that because the dog performs tasks then it does not matter if the dog is public access trained. One only has to consider why the Department of Justice felt the need in the new definition of service animal to say that the dog must be housetrained. It is not a definition that I thought would be needed, common sense should say that the dog must be housetrained, at an absolute minimum. But the stories I hear from other service dog users in the US explains to me why it is needed. I know of someone with a brillantly owner trained SD, who regularly goes to one particular restaruant who are very supportive of service dogs. Each time she goes in there they come and ask her questions about other dogs they have had there. Is it normal for the dogs to jump up onto the table and steal food from other tables as they are walking past, Is it normal for dogs to defecate and urinate in the restaraunt, is it normal for the dogs to bark all the way through the meal, etc, etc. The reality is that this restaruant is trying to do the right thing, but people turn up with totally out of control dogs, show cards that explain the laws, threaten legal action and the like and they are too scared to ask them to leave. Or they have one bad experience and so they then try and refuse access to all other service dog teams. Ask any veteran guide dog user and they will tell you that access dispute were unheard of in the past, and it is only in recent years with the ADA and everyone claiming that they can train their own dogs that they have had the problems they are now experiencing. And to be honest it is not just owner trainers, it is also people who sell dogs as supposed service dogs to desperate families and the like. As you said you do not trust any service dog programs, yet people have come to believe that these dogs produce miracles, that they can do anything at all, and so they will do anything do get one of these miracle dogs, and everything is justified away. I have seen websites of service dog programs in the US say that the dogs do not come house trained!! ! They are task and obedience trained, but they are not toilet trained!! I can assure you that the average business owner does expect the dogs who enter their stores to be toilet trained at an absolute minimum!! People who take puppies into stores for public access trainer are expected at an absolute minimum to have toilet trained the puppy first and yet there are people out there running programs, and claiming to produce these brillant dogs that are not even house trained. Service dogs began from guide dogs. The community came to see these dogs as well behaved, healthy, clean, etc, etc, and they are happ to have such dogs around. But when every jo blow claims to be able to train dogs, that they claim that 2 year olds can look after dogs, etc, etc then problems develop. And lets be honest I am not aware of ANY autism service dog program who does not claim that these dogs can attend school and preschool, etc with the child. Who is controlling the dog then?? The parent is the certified handler and yet they turn up at a preschool when the child is 3 years old, with the kid tied to the dog and then expect the school to have the dog there. The law is clear a public accommodation, ie. school is not responsible for caring for a persons service dog. Even Wilder service dogs who you say you like expect preschools to have the dogs in attendence with the child?? Are they somehow claiming that a 3 year old who is non verbal can control the dog all day, are they saying that the dog does not need anyone to control it?? Who is going to offer the dog a drink of water, afterall it is there for 6 hours a day or more?? Who is going to take the dog out to toilet it? Are they saying a 3 year old can do that?? Who is going to ensure that the dog does do as it is supposed to do, who is going to ensure that the other children, also aged 3 do not hit the dog, pull its tail, etc, etc. This is where a lot of the issue of these dogs for children stem from, that these programs are expecting the child to control the dog, for the dog to control the child, for public accommodations to control the dog, etc, etc. Fact is if these parents want to have the dog in public and it is well behaved, who cares, but if you are expecting someone else to care for the dog, if you are expecting the dog to care for itself or you are expecting a 3 year old to care for the dog then you really have to question how confident you are to be placing these dogs to begin with. Guide dogs do not place dogs with children, becuase children cannot control and care for the dog, nor utilise it in the way it is needed. Sure dogs are great therapy, but that does not mean that you can force someone else to care for your dog, to pick up after it, etc, etc. If you cannot care for the dog, then you must have someone with you who can, it really is as simple as that, and no autism service dog program has yet managed to understand that. Are there programs out there expecting one dog to look after two children, quite a few that I know of have done this, but is it any worse than what the others are doing. If you expect a dog to control 2, two year olds they are in effect much smaller and weigh less than one 12 year old?? The fact is neither is right. Take the dog with you if it calms the child or children by all means, but do not tie one or more children to the dog, it is simply not fair on the dog, nor on the children concerned. As a person who is incredibly high functioning, I am lucky to go to shopping mall once a year or two. The fact is they overwhelm me and I do not cope with them. Why force myself to do something that is not necessary. There are places that we all do not want to go, going to a shopping mall is hardly an essential part of life and it certainly is not for a 2 or 3 year old child. I respect that finding carers for children is hard, even harder when they are on the spectrum, but forcing them into things they cannot handle is hardly the solution either. The fact is they need to learn through desesitisation and the like to be able to tolerate such things for short periods of time and that is going to be much more benefical to them in the long term, than tying them to an animal and expecting the said animal to control them. There are times when the dog cannot be with them, the dog will get sick, will need to retire, etc, etc. How do they cope then. I know I can't go out without my dog or a person with me, hence if I need to go out without the dog I can and do go out with a human carer. Sure I love the independence that my dog gives me, but I am 36 years old, a 3 year old for the simple fact of being 3 does not need indepedence, and they sure as hell do not require it in a shopping mall.

As for finding good programs, it begins by looking outside the square. If all you look for are autism service dog programs, then I question whether any good ones actually exist. But when you think about it the tasks we requrie the most are guide dog tasks and I am not aware of any bad guide dog programs, which is why I chooose to go the route that I went. Tasks have been added on later, but the dog itself came from the best of the best, and I can't ask for more. Autism service dogs have been taken over by tether dogs and any program that thinks it is ethical to tie a child to an animal, to expect a dog to accompany a 3 year old to school without an adult handler, etc is not one I could possibly respect. My dog is almost 7 years old, I have had her since she was 18 months old and she is no where near retiring, her health is perfect as physically she is perfect, no signs at all of arthtis or anything else. She is fit, healthy and loves her job, I cannot ask for more. I dread the time she needs to retire, I know another dog will be there, but I do not look forward to putting my trust in another dog, thankfully that is not something I even need to begin to think about yet.



ASdogGeek
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12 Feb 2011, 3:27 pm

No I agree with everything actually. A 3 year old doesn't need independence in a mall I only trust wilder wood because the founder is a psychiatric nurse of 12 years and founded to work with neurological disorders. iit drives me nuts to many organizations are plaacing well trained dogs with kids and then calling the service dogs. How did you get a SD from a seeing eye program? That is awesome I considered it but didn't think I qualified. What program did you go to? You are very lucky with the health unfortunately Nim has everything going for her but her health. We are working so hard on hydro theraoey and homeopathy to help he. I am really worried about retiring her . With out her I can't function and I need he to go out or to have someone with me. Do you have a face book? I would really like to have you join my autism service dog group. I am also considering taking Pippin to wilder wood to have some extra aid in training but I am not sure. Actually the PSA test would be a good requirement to pass for public SD acres I agree. Nim wouldn't dare jump on a table to steel food! That is terrible places have had that happen!! !! !! When we go out Nim lays under or next to the table and sleeps if food falls she doesn't even look at it she normally turns her head the other way.. Nim is such an amazing dog I couldn't ask for a better SD I am honestly nervous and excited about Pippin. I have spent 4 years researching breeders interviewing and meeting them. Now I am getting all the things I will need for him ready and investigating puppy kindergartens , one he is. House trained we will begin public access training in pet friendly stores we have a lot of work to do but Nim will be there through it all I agree house trained is kinda common sense I have to remember most people are clueless about dog training. Organizations that put 2 to a dog really get me upset. Nim is very healthy minus CHD and osteoartritis. She is happy and playful and even tries to work and play when she is in pain. What organization did you go to as I need a back up plan an need to investigate those too. I am beyond obsessive about training and training requirements, diet and her exercise. One good thing about pip's breeder is that for every obedience title he earns. We will be doing obedience and agility when he is 2 we will train agility competitively, what is your girl's name?


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bjcirceleb
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13 Feb 2011, 1:13 am

I'm in Australia, but I do know of people in the US who have gotten guide dogs for Autism. It is not about simply asking them, it is about providing them with medical documentation that explains your condition in a way that they can understand it, and that explains the tasks that you need and why, that you are fully capable of looking after and caring for the dog, etc, etc. No not all programs would do it, but many are willing to think outside the box with the right person.

I am not so much opposed to programs giving programs to young children, providing they are used appropraitely. I know of many children with autism who are calmed immensly by the presence of dogs. I have no problems with the PARENT taking a dog with them in public places to help to calm the child, providing they are not tying the child to the dog. But it must be recognised that it is a dog to help the parent with the child. When they demand public access when the parent is not there, ie, in schools and preschools I have a problem. Teachers are not employed to pick up dog droppings, to babysit dogs, etc, etc. At the absolute minimum it is about ASKING the teacher, not demanding that they do it, and it sure as hell is not right to go to court and sue school disricts when all they have done is to ask for an adult to be there to control the dog. Schools have a responsibility to provide an appropriate education for a child and to ensure that they are able to function in the school environment. If they are providing one on one support there is no role for a dog to be there. Maybe in high school, but by that age most kids are wanting to blend in and be invisible, not stand out. I find it funny when I read about parents who got these autism tether dogs when the child was younger and when they become teenagers they do not want anything to do with the dog, they want to blend in instead, and the parents are stuck with a dog who expects to go everywhere and no where to take it!!

I know a parent with a child with autism and they got a failed guide dog, that is incredibly highly trained, obedient and the like. The child gains enormously from the dog and they have organised to bring the dog to school for the child's therapy sessions, so the parent is there with the dog to control it, etc, but so that the therapist can also use it in working with the child. But the dog is not there all day every day, the parent is there to control the dog, and permission was granted etc, etc.

Dogs are great therapy for children and that should not be under estimated, there is a real value in them when they are highly trained, etc. I know of a child aged about 10 in a wheelchair who has a dog to assist only at home. It has given the child "age appropriate" independence. The dog helps the child to get dressed, picks up things when he drops it at home, etc so the child is able to have time alone, without having to rely on his parents to do everything for him. But he is not at an age where he would be going out alone, and so there is no role for a dog in a public place. Over the next few years he will be able to begin to take the dog to park on his own, and basic things like that, but he does not need a dog in a public place, at least for the time being.

I am all for inhome service dogs for children, for encouraging the dogs to be used in therapy and the like when the parents are there to control the dog, and to be honest if the parent wants to take the dog in public, who cares, providing the dog is well trained and well behaved. I'm not against emotional support dogs in public, providing the dog is public access trained. That is honestly all the public cares about, no one could really care if the person is disabled, providing the dogs are trained. Most people are in awe of extremely well trained dogs as you would well know, and that is all the general public cares about.