A somewhat convoluted question about socialization...

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Ah! No, I didn't mean to make it sound as if that was your entire message. I did get the rest. I admittedly DID pull it out of context, not to single YOU out, but as a perfect example of the kind of encouragement I think we tend to misinterpret as "coercion."

I DO get your point. And I do force myself as well to socialize, even at times I really don't want to.

It's just that there are times, I believe, when it just best to leave them alone. And that's a tough thing to convince others, especially school staff. In particular how to tell when backing off really is the best thing to do. As parents, we're pretty good at that with our kids. But it's really hard to get that through sometimes to school staff. Some of them really believe they know better than we do, and yeah, that does tend to cultivate resentment.

Right now I think we're at the point of simply insisting that none of them make the call when the situations become difficult, to consult us instead, and respect our decisions.

Believe me, we do encourage them to be as social as they can. But they seem to be able to tell the difference more easily with us, between true encouragement and insistence, than they can with others they don't know as well. Really, it's a matter of trust. The more they trust a person, the less likely it is they will misinterpret their encouragement, and more likely they will be to be honest, and not necessarily cave in when the situation really is causing a great deal of distress.

I agree with a lot of what's being said in this thread. On the one hand, I need to be forced into social situations or else I'll simply opt out of them. On the other hand, because I'm stubborn (to the point of annoying myself) I will push back as hard as I can when I'm being pressured.

My parents often forced me into social situations and I always expressed my dislike of attending them but each time I was told it was "for my own good". Now that I'm older I do understand and occasionally feel that I have a need for social interaction. The problem is that I don't know how to get and stay motivated to do so, the urge to give in when the anxiety sets in is often too great.

I think there is a mixture of stuff. I was never really forced to do anything I didn't want to do. My parents have always been very understanding of me being "people'd out" as we call it. Plus they gave me a lot of freedom, so any activity we stayed at for long, I could go off and be by myself if I needed to. I finally came to my own and started going to activities on my own about two years ago. It just took some time.

For me, I need two things to participate in social activities.
First of all, I have to respect and trust the person asking me to do the activities, and they have to be there. If trust is not there, you may as well forget it.
Secondly, you can force me to be somewhere, but you can't force me to talk. If I am being quiet and you try to force me to talk I will get really annoyed. I need a place to back up and watch what is going on.

I do best when I am with another quiet person whom I don't feel the need to talk to. That way, we can stand around looking social, (because people think that those standing or sitting alone *need* to be spoken to and bugged until they are in a group) but we don't have to actually speak or figure out a conversation, haha.

If those two things are there, then I will be ok, as long as I can recharge afterwords. I schedule an entire day each week to recharge. It is very important for my sanity to be able to do that.

Just in case you haven't read this yet..

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/qui ... e-question

sometimes less is more...

Here's the solution that my daughter's school came up with in conjunction with us.

She goes to the social situation with the rest of the class but she has a laminated break pass. She hands the break pass to a teacher's aid when things get to be too much. She and the aid leave.

Before this system was instituted, she would melt down at the prospect of going somewhere with the class or would melt down during this social activity (field trip, recess etc.). At first they told her "just tell us if you need to leave" but she couldn't. Her capacity to tell anybody anything evaporated when she was stressed. But neither did they want her to just never join in anything. This laminated break pass system is teaching her how to tolerate small amounts of socialization and more importantly, how to recognize her limit before meltdown point is reached. She doesn't need words to use it and she approaches social situations with much less stress knowing that at any time she can leave.

I think the greatest benefit to my daughter since insituting the break pass is that I see this growing ability in her to be mindful of her limit and know when it's approaching and do something about it. Previously when she didn't perceive any means of escape, and there was only never going into the situation or meltdown during the situation, she was tending to agoraphobia (which in the classroom translated to never wanting to leave her desk). Now she is more confident going into situations because she has a non-verbal means of leaving at any time.

Maybe something similar might help at your son's school.

Wow, what a great idea. Sounds like your daughter has a very nice and understsanding school.

"Everyone feels happier when they socialize, concluded the researchers - introverts included."

That was the first part of the article I read, and almost didn't bother with the rest solely for that single statement. What an unbelievably inaccurate way to interpret their data!

But, I read the rest anyway, and it's a very good article. At least the author saw it in a more balanced light.

I don't consider myself an introvert by strict definition. There's a big difference IMHO between being primarily concerned with one's own thoughts and feelings, and having limited ability to be aware of others thoughts and feelings. See, it's not a matter of lack of concern for me, it's a matter of simply not being aware that other's thoughts and feelings might be different from my own. Intellectually, I know this, but to practice it is another story. I have ADHD on top of AS, so I'm constantly forgetting to "check."

The points she made all apply anyway. I love the section about "flow." More like hyper-focus where I'm concerned. Just because I don't smile and glow constantly doesn't mean I'm not happy. I'm very happy! Happy in my contentment! Being around people who are constantly smiling and glowing too much, actually becomes quite stressful for me.

Janissy, how old is your daughter?

There were things very similar in place for our boys in the past, but all three are just about in Junior High now, and are now expected to speak up for themselves. The thing is, they do, but are still pressured to participate even when they are clearly advocating for themselves (which the schools say they don't do enough of, ironically) verbally.

That's the part I don't understand. When they actually DO advocate for themselves, and vocalize clearly if they don't want to participate in certain events, the staff doesn't seem to recognize that they are doing exactly what they have been trying to get them to do for years, yet try to talk them into participating, and don't acknowledge the fact that they are finally speaking up for themselves. Seems a bit paradoxical to me. It confuses the kids. They think they're doing what they are supposed to, but are being made to feel as if it's wrong. Mixed messages from the schools (as unintentional as they may be), are really confusing them.

What brought this one was a specific event that is being held for the second time in two years. It didn't occur when my first son was in sixth grade. It did last year, and my second son wanted to attend, so we let him (there were permission slips that we could have refused to sign). This year, they are holding it again, but my youngest was stressing over it, and didn't want to go. Well, there ARE permission slips, that we don't HAVE to sign, but he and I were told attending the event was "required."

Really? Then why do they need my permission? Another "mixed message." It's amazing how much of what they do and say that simply doesn't make sense. He was also told that any students that didn't go to the event, would have to stay at school, and "do a lot of hard work." (His words)

Anyway, long story short, I sent the school a letter stating he would be staying home. IMHO, none of them spend enough one on one time with me, so he'll be here with me, by himself tomorrow. That, I told the schools, is probably a far more valuable use of his time in this particular instance.

If they didn't understand or agree, I'm not sure, but at least they respected the decision.

The thing is, all three of the boys do choose to participate in some school functions. Just not that many of them. So they do get some socialization, and all by choice. Every now and again functions are scheduled during school hours, and they are made to feel as though they don't have a choice. Those tend to be the events they stress over. It's not like they never stretch themselves. They do, but probably not as much as most students do. And that, I feel is fine. So it's different. So what? Nothing wrong with different.

Actually Lecks, this is exactly what I'm afraid forcing them will cause when they become adults.

I don't have any problem at all with encouraging the kids to find their OWN motivation for going to social events. Then at least, they will learn how to develop their own motivations and know how once they are adults.

Being forced to attend events doesn't teach anybody how to want to do it themselves. Sure, attending events even under coercion can be good for us in that moment, but we're doing it because of outside influences, not from internally generated motivation. And that, I feel, is why you (and I for that matter) didn't learn how to drum up our own motivations for socializing. I'm twice your age now, and have learned, but I had to do that on my own, and it wasn't easy believe me!

When a child only participates when he's motivated, but is encouraged to learn SELF motivation, I think that's far more valuable in the long run.

I do think though, that Aspies in general don't necessarily need as much social interaction as others may. From what I've seen, there are a lot of us that are perfectly happy with very limited social interaction.

If we are happy, where is the problem?

Hmmm. Well, first of all, I think there are a wide variety of social situations, that can range from fairly pleasant to the 'gnawing-my-leg-off-to-escape' horrible. One-on one or small group intereactions that are fairly structured and focused on an interesting topic might not be too bad. But requiring that a kid, for example, go to the school dance and attempt to dance with 3 people would be a Circle of Hell. It's the sort of thing that, if you HAVE to do it, you'd better work your way up gradually.

Also, I, and probably many folks on the spectrum, have a truly astonishing potential for passive resistance when forced into something unpleasant.

Tomorrow night, I have to attend a professional event. It will be crowded, chaotic, and deeply unpleasant. I am planning to hold it together for exactly 1/2 hour, and have planned a route through the event to guarantee that I am seen be, and express my support to, the maximum number of colleagues in that time. I'm 37. I can pull that off now. When I was 12 I would have ended up rocking and sobbing in the bathroom with all the lights turned off within the first 5 minutes.

When I was growing up, I can remember my mother telling me every year before school started, "Now I want you to try and make one new friend this year." I remember on one occasion she was trying to not break out in tears. The thing is that I consistently didn't make new friends. Occasionally I'd have a playmate where I'd be expected to go over to their house and play, but I remember most of these experiences being boring and unpleasant. I never actually realized how disconnected I was from those "playmates" until fairly recently.

Unlike some, I don't remember feeling like I wanted or needed friends at that age. I never really had a desire to "fit in," and maybe that's because I had given up a long time before that. I don't recall large issues of rejection whatsoever. I was bullied badly in junior high school, but I still considered that to be separate from rejection. It may be because I was fairly beloved by my teachers and parents and had that support in my life that I managed to pull through.

Something happened in last two years of high school, though. It's almost like someone turned on a switch. I suddenly had friends. I still felt a bit distant from some of my friends, but there was at least a "loose coalition" of social outcasts that was a strong enough bond to keep us together. I also started making friends who were involved with activities I was involved in (choir and orchestra).

So to answer your original question: I don't know that my mother encouraging social situations had the reverse effect on me. It would be more accurate to say that it had no effect on me until I came to the idea on my own terms in high school.

Convoluted question???? NOT at ALL!! !!

It's an excellent topic!



I was reading Dr. A.J. Mahari's blog once where she stated that NTs typically make the mistake of trying to "normalize" people with AS. According to her, these attempts - in fact, only make matters worse. Thus a lot of people here who are AS/ASD or suspect they are with good reason will describe having gone further into withdrawal.



Exactemundo.

The same thing happened to me and exactly according to Dr. Mahari. My father (may GOD rest his soul in peace) was extremely frustrated with the fact that I didn't have the friends he thought I should have. He was also frustrated that I didn't actively seek out friendships the way the "other kids" did.

When I was Pre-K, my mother delighted in telling her friends about how I could entertain myself for hours without having other kids around.



I didn't have that ability. If I didn't want to do it, it always showed. People always said (and still say) I wear my heart on my sleeve. Imagine taking THAT literally!



This was the source of disagreement between my father and I. "No man is an island," he would always preach. He would ask me why I couldn't make small talk with people and I would always give a blank look and answer, "What for?" To many, he would be the ultimate NT!



Same thing happened to me when I hit high school. I had lots of people I talked to and hung out with. I still didn't do much weekend visiting and stuff. I did NOT do stuff like football games and prom and homecoming - much to my father's dismay. But I interacted with lots of jocks and people considered to be "cool." I had a BLAST!



Exactly. On my OWN terms! Not someone else's!

she's 12



That's terrible!

I think the best part of this system is that it's teaching my daughter how to advocate for herself and know her limits and remove herself from a stressful situation before meltdown happens. That's a huge life skill. It looks like your kids learned it too and that's a good thing but now the staff thinks the next life skill should be participating fully regardless. That is a mixed message. I will take your story as a heads up for my own daughter and be on guard in case her future mastery of this skill backfires in the exact same way.

A great topic here! My parents never forced me to do anything except church and sunday school. But then my father worked long hours, my mother spent all of her time social climbing, and I had two older brothers, one an Aspie and one ADD, and two emotionally disturbed older sisters. I was quiet and so they left well enough alone. They did 'encourage' me to join Cub Scouts and later Boy Scouts. One day a bunch of my fellow cubs follow me after the meeting, beat me up and told me not to come back. Almost the same thing happened a few years later in Boy Scouts. As I write this I wonder why I was so stupid as not to learn the first time.

The real question comes down to "should building social abilities be the primary goal? and if so, why?" Is it because to NT parents nothing seems more important than that their children are normal? What about what's most important for the child?

To me the goals should be contentment, peace of mind, feeling loved, feeling they are in a safe and protected place where, when they need it, their privacy is inviolate. Ultimately, in adult life the two most important priorities will become being able to earn a living without undue stress levels, and avoiding the dreaded, smothering claws of depression.

If these goals are being aided by a social activity, fine, but I doubt that any activity requiring heavy coercion is going to help anything. One has to ask if the NTs at the school are just knee-jerk concluding that ANY social activity is ipso facto good just because it would help 'cure' the child of his/her problems. I suspect that to many of them, being anti-social IS the problem. This is just NT blindness, pure and simple.

I say if the goals I've mentioned can be achieved with socialization strategies fine. If they can be reached without any kind of forced or encouraged socialization, regardless of whether or not the child is a 'hermit', better yet. 'Normalization' whatever that means, should never be a goal in itself. One should especially always remember that all of us are unique, none of us react to things in exactly the same way. What works for some will not necessarily work for all. And of course, there is no such thing as a 'cure'.

I am an Aspie Savant, and for us the argument is a little different. Given a finite amount of time to work with the student, should the time spent be used trying improve their social skills, or training their talents? Given my own experience, I'd like to come down overwhelmingly on the side of training the talents. When I mastered the guitar I soon ended up in a band where the pecking order was very much based on talent and not social skills. In fact I was bemused to discover that people actually expected me to act like a prima donna and an a**hole. So I just went along and played the role. Why disappoint people?

Now I know that most Aspies don't have the wild talent thing going for them. But that doesn't mean they don't have strengths they can build on. If they are computer geeks, or into obsessive science projects, don't tell them they need to give that up so they can get out more. Aspies have focus and single-mindedness, they are often very good with machinery and electronics and some of their weird ideas end up being something real and useful. Things like this may not be as flashy as playing lead guitar or amazing people on a TV game show, but they are real skills that could very well earn them a living doing something they enjoy in later life and they may well find friends with the same interests, which for us are really the only friends we are likely to feel comfortable with.

So I say in either case, spend your time training the skill. Find out what they like and show aptitude for and encourage them in it in every way possible. If it's a skill that's not that social, it should still not be discouraged. Who knows, it may turn out to be the very thing that ultimately makes their life worth living.

"Encouragement" to go to parties and social events has always just made me feel bad about myself.

I learned that I was supposed to like the noise, the bright lights, the excitement, and the overwhelmingly chaotic social situations that I was supposed to take part in....even though in reality, every party or social event I ever went to resulted in sensory overload and shutdown or (when I was a child) emotional meltdowns with lots of screaming and tears.

I never actually learned anything from forced socialization, because I was too anxious and lost and miserable to take in my surroundings or even attempt to understand what people were doing, what they were saying to me or why....and that's if I even talked to anybody or kept my eyes focused. Mostly I just stood in corners by myself and stared at the patterns in carpet or ceiling tiles and waited for as long as I could before fleeing the situation, with or without the approval of my parents, teachers, or peers.

All that "encouragement" to socialize "normally" ever did for me was to make me feel like a defective person and add to my developing severe and clearcut social anxiety (as opposed to simple sensory sensitivity and social awkwardness, with some anxiety when I got lost in an interaction or when things went wrong between me and other people and I couldn't figure out why). I was never asked what I enjoyed or felt I could handle in terms of type and size of social situations--it didn't seem to matter--and I got the clear message that people who socialize are more valuable and capable than people who like to hang out with one person at a time, or spend time alone. Even today, I find myself saying, "I like the idea of parties" to play to this idea that normal, likeable people should enjoy parties.....even though I don't really like the idea of parties anymore than I like actual parties.

I had no problem with being a loner until I was given the impression that it meant there was something wrong with me and I was not acceptable because of it. I didn't appreciate adults trying to force other kids to play with me or invite me to things, and I have a feeling that the other kids couldn't figure out what the point of forcing me to be there was when, for all practical purposes, I was lost in space and only present physically, or (occasionally) screaming and ruining the social event for everyone who actually wanted to be there. Nor did I appreciate being told that I "had to have" enjoyed something about a school dance or a group outing or party and pressured to say something positive (in other words, to lie), or that I would learn to enjoy things, or enjoy the next event, when I tried to share the fact that I hated whatever experience I'd just had.

I think that pressuring kids into social situations beyond their comfort and skill level is like throwing a child who can't swim into the middle of a lake. They might learn to swim and be grateful to you, or they might have a near-drowning experience that traumatizes them for life, damages their self-esteem and relationship with you, and actually discourages them from ever trying to learn to swim later on. It depends on the kid, I suppose.

@XLCR and animalcrackers:

Truer words were never spoken!

The post by animalcrackers reminds me of an incident that happened long ago when we first moved to the suburbs. I never did the screaming and crying thing, but when we first moved, I went to a birthday party for a guy in my first grade class. I didn't know anybody there and didn't really understand how to function in that situation. I wound up going into a bedroom in the basement where we were and hiding under a bed.

Even years later, the guy whose parents' house we were at mentioned it.

I was six at the time.

Yeah...THERE goes somethin' every NT has done at some point in his childhood

I have to look back and understand that my father and others really had no idea what they were dealing with. I certainly didn't I had no problem being a loner, either. But to others it DID mean that there was something wrong with me...that I was looked down upon in some respect.



Unfortunately, I was the one who almost drowned