What is the issue with 'autistic pride'?

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Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 3:15 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I just think its ridiculous to be proud of something that's not an accomplishment...being born a certain way is not an accomplishment its all genetics.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread (or in the pride poll thread, I forget which), "autistic pride" is about not being ashamed of being autistic, not about being proud of something in the way you'd be proud of an accomplishment.

I don't see the point of being proud of being autistic as an accomplishment, but I do see the point of autistic pride in the same way I see the point of gay pride.

I don't really see the point of gay pride either.....one can accept things about themselves without making a big thing of it....the pride thing to me is making a big thing out of it.

Verdandi
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27 Mar 2011, 3:25 pm

jamieboy wrote:

haha Most likely yes. I don't have that problem myself so i forget that other aspies do.

Thank you for the clarification, at any rate.

Sweetleaf wrote:

don't really see the point of gay pride either.....one can accept things about themselves without making a big thing of it....the pride thing to me is making a big thing out of it.

The reason for gay pride is that people who aren't heterosexual grow up being told how shameful and terrible and tragic and wrong and bad it is to not be heterosexual. Many are actually kicked out of their homes and disowned by their families before they turn 18, and many suffer violence and bullying because they do not conform to expected gendered norms as children. Gay pride is pushing back against that, saying it is okay to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, queer, pansexual, transgender (although this is not an orientation).

So I certainly do see the reason for gay pride, but it may be due to the fact that I am queer and have experienced a lot of that shame. I do think it's a big deal to say it's okay to have any orientation or be any gender, and I am okay with it being a big deal.

Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 3:37 pm

Verdandi wrote:

jamieboy wrote:

haha Most likely yes. I don't have that problem myself so i forget that other aspies do.

Thank you for the clarification, at any rate.

Sweetleaf wrote:

don't really see the point of gay pride either.....one can accept things about themselves without making a big thing of it....the pride thing to me is making a big thing out of it.

I know that happens, and I do not see how gay pride would decrease it....I have homosexual/bi-sexual friends, who are not huge on gay pride either. I mean nothing wrong with accepting that about yourself and being content with it. But to make some huge thing out of it just seems a little too attention seeking. Maybe the intentions for these things are good....but maybe a word other then pride should be used. Because pride should relate to accomplishments not ones natural state of being.

gadge
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27 Mar 2011, 3:45 pm

my .02.... from a machine point of view

"We all work differently,
and have different functions,
some from "assembly line",
others "one of a kind customs"...

I'm a "one of a kind" I didnt come off the assembly line as they did, My parts are different, and they dont make spare parts for me. their operators manuals are printed in mass. the mass produced machines dont have a clue how I work or what I do, They want me to work like they do and fit their assembly and operator manuals,
I'm not broken, and dont want to be fixed,I just function differently,or do a different function and dont go according to the plan and flow, just dont want to fit the mold

motherof2
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27 Mar 2011, 3:47 pm

When I was pregnant with my daughter there was a test to see if there was a chance she had Down Syndrome. I did not want the test because I would never have had an abortion. I knew when we decided to have kids that you take whatever comes your way. I never thought of autism as a possibility. I was worried about some deadly disease that would take my kids from me. Even Down's Syndrome would not kill my child before I had a chance to see my child grow up. I have friends who thought they could not raise a child with such a disability and would have aborted. So I think that some would check and other's would not. I read a Brave New World in high school and thought the idea of picking and choosing traits was shocking. I really thought it was science fiction. I cannot believe we are going down that road now. I still think that some parents would be against that in the future. But if your future would be set already the moment you were born, what chance would anyone have to live up to their potential. Eistein would be cleaning toilets by that model. I think it will be hard to stop these chains of events because of the speed of business and corporations quest for more money.

Bloodheart wrote:

So, what I'm getting is...

It basically boils down to okay as we are...v's...lets find a cure.
So it is a Autism Speaks v's Aspies for Freedom deal.

I remember seeing a documentary a while ago about the genome project - basically find genes that cause x disabilities, then we can prevent people being born with x disabilities - and how disabled people were up-in-arms about this as it was essentially saying that we as a society view disabled people as less than perfect. By saying we need to prevent disabilities we are saying disabled people are worth less than able-bodied, thus not equal. Which is all a loaded issue...you then have issues like if it could be screened-for it could be seen as eugenics.

So, the issue of autistic pride is similar, but then within the community we have mud slinging from both sides...people who want to cure (either NT or AS/ASD) are viewed as telling everyone who is AS/ASD that they're not equal to NT's, people who want a cure maybe feel it's unfair to be expected to be happy-happy-joy-joy about a disability...particularly one that can be hugely problematic for those who are low-functioning and their families. People get impassioned and end up being overly zealous...and thus the whole big dealio, right?
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So, if I was to say I am in favour of autistic pride and neurodiversity...how much trouble would I get into for that? lol

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Verdandi
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27 Mar 2011, 4:00 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

It's not attention-seeking, and gay pride helps. No one is required to be on-board with pride, so I'm not sure why your friends have any bearing in this conversation. The intentions for these things are good, no maybe about it. The word usage is fine, even if it takes some of us a bit of work to get past a specific meaning. Words can have multiple meanings, you know?

And yes, I realize I say this after taking someone else literally. I have trouble with multiple meanings sometimes, but I don't know how to change language to remove this ambiguity entirely.

motherof2
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27 Mar 2011, 4:02 pm

I did try to cure my daughter. I was on a biomedical plan to fix whatever imbalance she had so she could be happy. I tried detox, vitamins, and gluten and casein free. For her it was obvious she had difficulty with casein. She was on a very limited diet of milk products, wheat products and sugar. When I removed the milk she looked me in the eyes and said a real sentence. She had the most improvement in the first couple of months. She was rail thin and started gaining weight and her constipation improved. I got caught up in every other treatment as I felt that she had autism as a result on toxicity that led to leaky gut. I staying with it for a few years even though she probably improved at the rate she would have anyway. She is back on a normal diet, although does test high for casein and gluten intolerance. When she was able to tell me if he stomach hurt or not, I went with what she said instead of what I thought. Her sensory issues were almost gone and came back more extreme when she went back to a normal diet. But no decline in any other area. I wanted so much to have her not in pain from noise and be able to hear me when I spoke to her. I wanted her to be aware of her surroundings and not treat people like objects. She did not know her own strength and hurt many people. I wanted a cure because she was so unhappy and had terrible tantrums. Now she is 9 and I have come slowly to acceptance. I see her so angry and unhappy and just want to help her be more happy. I never thought by curing her she would change into someone else, just a happier person without the sensory and behavior issues. Now she wants friends but does not know how to make or keep them. I am doing everything I can to help her be happy. For her though, she needs to understand the NT world to be a part of it. She was moderately autistic after 2 years old and is PDD NOS now.

MrXxx wrote:

I don't think it's necessarily about "Cure vs. No Cure," though the debates are closely related.

It's simply about whether one should be proud to be an Aspie or not. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

There are those who feel AS is, simply put, NOT a good thing, and therefore nothing to be proud of.

There are those who see it as a blessing, and therefore something to be proud of.

There are also many of mixed feelings.

There are some from all three groups that would like to see a cure. (Yeah, even some from the second group ~ some in that group choose to see it as a blessing because they feel it's just better to think positively about it even though there's nothing they can do to change it ~ but would still rather choose NOT to have it, IF they had a choice)

There are some from all three groups who don't want a cure for a number of different reasons. Some, out of a sense of self determination. There are many other reasons to numerous to list.

So, no, I don't think the two debates are the same at all. They are distinctly different issues.

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Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 4:12 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well i am not saying that about you specifically, its just how I feel about most pride movements in general...and the wording tends to take away from any benifits that would come out of it. I mean its intimidating to people in general.....kind of like if someone wears a shirt that says White Pride or something people are going to assume they are a racist. Its possible they are just content with being the race they are, but chances are....they are agressive about being white and think it makes them better or worth more........So good intentions or not the word Pride should be used more accurately and carefully.

Verdandi
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27 Mar 2011, 4:16 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

That is a specious example - "white pride" is linked to groups like the Ku Klux Klan, Stormfront, skinheads, the American Nazi Party, Minutemen, etc. and violence against people of color, LGBTQ, and so on. The LGBTQ community has no history of violence against straight people, not like that. The two are not remotely equivalent.

The intended meaning behind the word has been explained. Is it necessary to keep arguing as if it means some other thing that implies many unintended things?

Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 4:28 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yes I realise this, my point was the empasis on pride could be intimidating to a lot of people, and make them more intolerant of whatever group the pride movement is supporting. I am in no way comparing gay pride movements or autism pride movements or anything like that with the violent extremist groups you mentioned. But that's just how I feel about it.

gadge
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27 Mar 2011, 4:49 pm

Pride and arrogance,,,,,,,not the same in any context ! !!

proud of their arrogance, I wouldnt be

But I am proud ,that Im not arrogant.

intollerant of arrogance, proud Im me

ruveyn
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27 Mar 2011, 4:59 pm

Autistic Pride makes about as much sense as blonde pride or bald pride.

The condition is a happenstance. It is neither sought nor brought about by virtue.

ruveyn

Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 5:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Autistic Pride makes about as much sense as blonde pride or bald pride.

The condition is a happenstance. It is neither sought nor brought about by virtue.

ruveyn

I was starting to think I was the only one who felt this way about it.

gadge
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27 Mar 2011, 6:12 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Autistic Pride makes about as much sense as blonde pride or bald pride.

The condition is a happenstance. It is neither sought nor brought about by virtue.

ruveyn

I was starting to think I was the only one who felt this way about it.

Its not about being proud of being "bald, gay,short tall, fat, or autistic........ WHATEVER
Its about being proud of who and what they are and standing up for their rights ! !
Its not right to be treated any different because you are.

you are again confusing pride and arrogance

maybe you should refer to these groups as....(insert stereotype here) RIGHTS

people have the right to be proud of who they are

and not to be made less proud of themselves

Sweetleaf
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27 Mar 2011, 7:52 pm

gadge wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Autistic Pride makes about as much sense as blonde pride or bald pride.

The condition is a happenstance. It is neither sought nor brought about by virtue.

ruveyn

I was starting to think I was the only one who felt this way about it.

No I am expressing my opinion that I think to have pride in anything that is not an accomplishment is a useless waste of energy. Now if someone does something to stand up for their rights then they should be proud of doing that....as it is something they intentionally did/accomplished.

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27 Mar 2011, 8:34 pm

jamieboy wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

jamieboy wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

jamieboy wrote:

The real division is Happy vs Unhappy Aspies. Happy aspies are more likely to support autism pride and be hostile to cures. Why cure something when having it makes your life an unmitigated joy? Where as unhappy aspies want a cure as they want to be happier and see less positives to having AS. I fall squarely in the latter camp i feel.

Hmm, I am happy but my life is not an unmitigated joy, and I would say being autistic has actually caused me quite a bit of grief. I just don't hold a grudge.

This looks like the kind of black and white thinking Deaconblues described in response to me, and anbuend has explained at length.

The "unmitigated joy" part was an exaggeration to try and add emphasis to my point.

That seems ill-advised on a forum where people take things literally.

haha Most likely yes. I don't have that problem myself so i forget that other aspies do.

Yeah, sometimes when I post something I have to remember that just because I see an issue in a certain way, it doesn't mean that everybody else sees things the way I do.

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What is the issue with 'autistic pride'?