Understanding the model NTs operate on

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Sora
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08 Apr 2012, 2:10 pm

Start with models (multiple flexible models, there isn't one model) of communication (then go in depth, simultaneously applying them to real life experiences, keeping personal judgements at bay)?

Of course, almost all of these models in essence apply to everyone including autistic people which I think makes them all the more interesting.

That's how I started although my intention to understand "others" was more along the lines of trying to use that knowledge to my advantage on a daily basis for all my dealings with people.


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08 Apr 2012, 2:15 pm

Sora wrote:
Start with models (multiple flexible models, there isn't one model) of communication (then go in depth, simultaneously applying them to real life experiences, keeping personal judgements at bay)?

Of course, almost all of these models in essence apply to everyone including autistic people which I think makes them all the more interesting.

That's how I started although my intention to understand "others" was more along the lines of trying to use that knowledge to my advantage on a daily basis for all my dealings with people.


I couldnt be bothered to learn 'the NT ways' - I just knew I had a strong aversion to how most of them thought and acted so just wanted to avoid them full stop! I don't want to interact successfully with these people - that would make me as abhorrent as most of them by default!



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08 Apr 2012, 2:18 pm

nessa238 wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Jaydee wrote:
This is truly interesting. Many aspies on the WP forum talk about the NTs' apparent (and obviously irritating) lack of focus on and interest in facts. To me it becomes something of a paradox that one of the facts most ignored by aspies is that NTs do not constitute a homogenous group of people. The only thing that may accurately define us in the context of this forum, is that we are not on the autistic spectrum. Beyond that, we're actually as different as everyone else. Countless NTs love facts - they occupy themselves with hard facts on an everyday basis. And that is a fact. And it's been repeated many times. But somehow, that seems to be a fact that some aspies are reluctant to accept. :)


Some NTs like to pretend they have an interest in facts and knowedge for it's own sake but in my 46 years' experience of interacting with them, with 99% their eyes glaze over as soon as you start talking about factual information or anything with any depth. They want information-lite conversation, preferably about someone else and preferably back-stabbing someone else!

The emptier their heads the happier they are in my experience! Throw most a three-syllable word and they'll run for cover! I have not spent my life being dismissed as boring by the average NT for having an intellect without forming a strong opinion on the subject.

But of course, it's the NT method to say black is white and they usually get away with it as they are used to making it all up to suit themselves.

In other words you're not going to cut any ice with me on here!

What is it with the NT invasion lately??

The other NTs a bit too empty-headed and generic for you?

Pft!


I agree with you, IMO the "nerdy" NTs who want you to believe that they love factual information have been a dime a dozen in recent years.


Oh the irony! They actuallywant to join OUR gang! LOL

Shall we let them?

Hmmmmmmmmm

NO!

Lol

(I'm speaking for myself here btw - others can do as they please!)

Having spent a lot of my life agonisong over not beiong 'good enough' I finally realised I am, I
already was, I just needed to keep the hell awaqy from those who thought me 'lesser'!

Lo and behold - what happens? They actively come searching you out

I don't know whether to be flattered or horrified!

Get me out of NT City someone!


Well I don't know if you're including me in that group but I am NT lol.

I try my best not to come in here and start breaking balls FWIW.


No, you seem quite tolerable :)

You are what I term a 'bridge person' ie foot in both camps - you are good at explaining the vagiaries of the NT mindset to us as opposed to just sneering and kicking sand in our faces like the average one would!

What an honour! - an NT deems to speak to us!

(I'm just being facetious :wink: )


LOL thanks.


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Sora
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08 Apr 2012, 2:46 pm

nessa238 wrote:
I couldnt be bothered to learn 'the NT ways' - I just knew I had a strong aversion to how most of them thought and acted so just wanted to avoid them full stop! I don't want to interact successfully with these people - that would make me as abhorrent as most of them by default!


I was answering to the question Cogs asked, I wasn't trying to get you into something you don't want.

However, I am of the opinion (because it happened to me so it's more like personal experience) that some autistic people (and people with other mental/neurological conditions) can be as "abhorrent" as some non-autistic people can be too, especially by hatefully singling out other autistic people who are different from them for being more different, then explaining to others how acting that different makes the person stupid, pathetic, not a real person, so on and how they themselves are nothing like that because they happen to have other autistic behaviours or because their symptoms aren't as obvious or as severe.


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08 Apr 2012, 3:09 pm

Jaydee wrote:
This is truly interesting. Many aspies on the WP forum talk about the NTs' apparent (and obviously irritating) lack of focus on and interest in facts. To me it becomes something of a paradox that one of the facts most ignored by aspies is that NTs do not constitute a homogenous group of people. The only thing that may accurately define us in the context of this forum, is that we are not on the autistic spectrum. Beyond that, we're actually as different as everyone else. Countless NTs love facts - they occupy themselves with hard facts on an everyday basis. And that is a fact. And it's been repeated many times. But somehow, that seems to be a fact that some aspies are reluctant to accept. :)


What you'll find is a leveling or a natural seeking of a 'mean' level with society. If the culture is lazy, then if you choose one 'sample' there is a good chance you have a part of that in a representative sample. There are differences but there is a homogeneous cluster or a mean. A generalization: People tend to do what everyone else is doing/ or value -- (mores).

Divergent ones such as Gifted folks ( can) stray outside, and as anyone else not easily acculturated, e.g. ASD, introverts, etc.

* Different brains.*



Last edited by Mdyar on 08 Apr 2012, 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cogs
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08 Apr 2012, 3:22 pm

Jaydee wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
It would be hard to find a book about this because NTs are most of the population. Maybe just books on human social behavior. Not easy to find specific things about NT communication and how it's different than autism like it would be to find about autistics because nobody thinks of comparing the "normal" people to the minority group, maybe somebody will.

This is absolutely true. NTs do not form a homogenous group of people who think, feel and act in more or less the same way. There are as many "models" as there are humans. There are thousands and thousands of books written about communication - and that ought to tell you that NTs may also find communication challenging, and that there is no one way to go about it.
NTs do not think in one way. We do not feel the same. There are NTs that hate socializing, but others that love it - most of us are perhaps somewhere along the scale between the two.
Some NTs are good at reading between the lines, others less so. Some NTs use body language a lot, others less so. Some people love facebook, many others do not see the point of it at all.
Bottom line: We're all widely different individuals. The only thing we can safely say that NTs have in common is that we are not austisic. That really isn't much to go by when trying to define us. :)

Thanks for your input Jaydee - I see what you are saying and probably wasnt giving enough weight to NT differences before. I am generalising here and in my use of AS and NT, I am trying to understand the generic basic framework, but maybe this is not possible. Regardless, any insight on how I differ from NTs in general will help me better understand where I am going wrong when unsuccessfully trying to interact with NTs. Do you have any other input?


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Last edited by Cogs on 08 Apr 2012, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Apr 2012, 3:27 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
I understand the perception/story/judgment/reaction dynamic.

Do you agree with kBillingsley's explanation?

kBillingsley wrote:
The middle two parts should be in reference to internal dialogue and rationalization. Taking a complicated situation and consolidating it into a simplified story not only assists the individual in understanding, but also in being able to communicate the story to someone else later. The emotion/opinion stage, I imagine, is just a passive response to having the rationalized story. The middle two stages are kind of a natural analog to MP3 format, in which a larger audio file has the inaudible parts taken out of it to lessen the file size, but keep the same music. Continuing with the MP3 analogy, "reading between the lines" is like making a guess at what the previous mind removed during file compression, based on one's own experience in file compression. As for emotions, you are on your own. Personally, I discard them whenever possible, as they have only ever inhibited me from my goals. Sometimes you can use emotions of others to make a guess at how they compress their files. For example: if you meet someone who is always overbearingly optimistic and happy, you can infer that this person discards all of the sad or unfavorable parts of a situation, and only consciously recognizes the happy parts. Using this information, you can regress what likely was the actual situation that this person experienced from their story, an assumption that all situations are naturally neutral, and your own experience with what you can guess are similar situations. Communication is pretty simple once you have learned to work the system. Also, people have a sort of 'auto-sync' feature when they get around one another. This is what conversation is: the exchange of information and attached sentiments until all parties involved believe that sufficient t information has been exchanged and equilibrium has been achieved.


BuyerBeware wrote:
What I don't understand is why, when the facts of the situation contradict their story, so many NTs choose to ignore the facts rather than re-evaluate the story (and the judgment and reaction that follow from it).
I find this very often.


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08 Apr 2012, 3:30 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
Even when it comes to simple, objective information, I see people asking their friends and relatives for answers first and never questioning it-that's the fascinating part. I understand that they're simply inclined to socialize and enjoy getting information from others but believing socially acquired knowledge as fact and even going so far as to believe that facts aren't real or are subjective...truly blows my mind.

Why do such people get annoyed or think it is unusual/odd when they experience others questioning the information?


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08 Apr 2012, 3:33 pm

Sora wrote:
Start with models (multiple flexible models, there isn't one model) of communication (then go in depth, simultaneously applying them to real life experiences, keeping personal judgements at bay)?

Of course, almost all of these models in essence apply to everyone including autistic people which I think makes them all the more interesting.

That's how I started although my intention to understand "others" was more along the lines of trying to use that knowledge to my advantage on a daily basis for all my dealings with people.

Do you have any particular models in mind?


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08 Apr 2012, 3:50 pm

Cogs wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
Even when it comes to simple, objective information, I see people asking their friends and relatives for answers first and never questioning it-that's the fascinating part. I understand that they're simply inclined to socialize and enjoy getting information from others but believing socially acquired knowledge as fact and even going so far as to believe that facts aren't real or are subjective...truly blows my mind.

Why do such people get annoyed or think it is unusual/odd when they experience others questioning the information?


I think it really has to do with fitting in with their group. Some NTs take offense to this but it's the way humans evolved(Homo sapien, anyway). The human race has achieved some wonderful things and I enjoy living in a world that NTs have created, I won't deny it, but so much of that has been done by sticking together. I see as NTs as responsible for perpetuating the human race and autistics/gifted people as people who are wired with the potential to improve it(whether they are successful or not is really beside the point).

Neanderthal Theory of AS and ADHD aside, one of the major reasons the Neanderthal died out(aside from being killed off by Homo sapien) was a lack of bonding and communication. The group as a whole probably had a lack of shared knowledge and Neanderthals are said to have done the same thing over and over again without learning from their mistakes, in came the Homo Sapien with a smaller but much more socially adept brain.

That was OT and whether or not anyone gives Neanderthal Theory any credence the story that's portrayed of how they would have lived along side with the Homo Sapien is strikingly similar to how Aspies live along side with NTs IMO.

So the short answer is that they aren't necessarily empty-headed but have a very strong instinct to form bonds and will quite often dismiss facts and information that might make the bonds they have with others less valuable. They may eb frightened or really just annoyed by people who question them because they don't understand the motive behind it and some truly don't understand that a person can happy without any bonds or deep connections.


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Last edited by EXPECIALLY on 08 Apr 2012, 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

nessa238
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08 Apr 2012, 3:52 pm

Sora wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I couldnt be bothered to learn 'the NT ways' - I just knew I had a strong aversion to how most of them thought and acted so just wanted to avoid them full stop! I don't want to interact successfully with these people - that would make me as abhorrent as most of them by default!


I was answering to the question Cogs asked, I wasn't trying to get you into something you don't want.

However, I am of the opinion (because it happened to me so it's more like personal experience) that some autistic people (and people with other mental/neurological conditions) can be as "abhorrent" as some non-autistic people can be too, especially by hatefully singling out other autistic people who are different from them for being more different, then explaining to others how acting that different makes the person stupid, pathetic, not a real person, so on and how they themselves are nothing like that because they happen to have other autistic behaviours or because their symptoms aren't as obvious or as severe.


Tell me about it! - I've had plenty of experience of being bullied by other people on the autistic spectrum as well. As we vary so much it's obviously going to occur - it's human nature to bully imo regardless of being autistic or not. I think people with greater intelligence try to resist their baser human urges though. Not always an easy thing to do. The person who says they've never bullied or made another person feel bad from bullying-like behaviour is a liar in my opinion.



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08 Apr 2012, 4:01 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
Cogs wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
Even when it comes to simple, objective information, I see people asking their friends and relatives for answers first and never questioning it-that's the fascinating part. I understand that they're simply inclined to socialize and enjoy getting information from others but believing socially acquired knowledge as fact and even going so far as to believe that facts aren't real or are subjective...truly blows my mind.

Why do such people get annoyed or think it is unusual/odd when they experience others questioning the information?


I think it really has to do with fitting in with their group. Some NTs take offense to this but it's the way humans evolved(Homo sapien, anyway). The human race has achieved some wonderful things and I enjoy living in a world that NTs have created, I won't deny it, but so much of that has been done by sticking together. I see as NTs as responsible for perpetuating the human race and autistics/gifted people as people who are wired with the potential to improve it(whether they are successful or not is really beside the point).

Neanderthal Theory of AS and ADHD aside, one of the major reasons the Neanderthal died out(aside from being killed off by Homo sapien) was a lack of bonding and communication. The group as a whole probably had a lack of shared knowledge and Neanderthals are said to have done the same thing over and over again without learning from their mistakes, in came the Homo Sapien with a smaller but much more socially adept brain.

That was OT and whether or not anyone gives Neanderthal Theory any credence the story that's portrayed of how they would have lived along side with the Homo Sapien is strikingly similar to how Aspies live along side with NTs IMO.

So the short answer is that they aren't necessarily empty-headed but have a very strong instinct to form bonds and will quite often dismiss facts and information that might make the bonds they have with others less valuable.


I agree with that. Being accepted by the group is far more important to the average NT than being 'right' or being in ownership of the right information - it's positively uncool to most NTs to be obsessed with proving something factually correct a lot of the time (often because a lot of what they say is based on outright lies and exaggeration which they don't want exposed!)

As long as they can all whoop loudly and hug each other who gives a stuff about objective fact? This is where me and most NTs part ways as if you can't value facts what's the point of anything??



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08 Apr 2012, 4:11 pm

Blindspot149 wrote:
This book really explained it very well for me.

http://www.afieldguidetoearthlings.com/


Thanks for the tip, another one on my virtual bookshelf.

I'm not sure how I could use the information in the book though, I found a lot of it pretty confusing. They could really do with putting the play into a short movie, I found it far too confusing to follow properly.

I hadn't given much thought to social rank and how this effects acceptance of ideas. Its pretty obvious and explains a lot of my difficulties at work.

Jason.



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08 Apr 2012, 4:12 pm

Not talking about special interests is one of the models that they operate on.


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08 Apr 2012, 4:14 pm

I guess that another model would be to keep your cool at all times and hide your imperfections.


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08 Apr 2012, 4:26 pm

TPE2 wrote:
Another point is that, I suppose, the nature of the difference of the mental processes between autistics and NTs is not yet well unbderstood (look at all the competing theories - theory of mind, executive function, systemizing/empathazing, central coherence...).

And, if we don't really know how autistic mind is different from NT mind, how we can know how NT mind is different from autistic mind?


Well, if the point is to understand NTs, you don't have to. Understanding autistics in general isn't necessary. Understand yourself (not necessarily perfectly, but some self understanding), and then take that to what you read about the mind in general. Read books and articles about the mind with the idea that some of it will be accurate in general (that is, for most people) but not apply to you personally.


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