Is this an AS trait and what is it called?

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Moondust
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23 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

I've always been very skeptical about anything related to body language being my problem, because so much of my interactions with people are on the phone and there's no difference with face-to-face. Eg. all the "busy" excuses are mostly said on the phone. All the "let's keep in touch!", "It was nice of you to call!", "We have to get together sometime!", "I'll call you as soon as I finish my exams!", etc. etc.


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DrPenguin
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23 Jul 2012, 4:15 pm

Moondust wrote:
I've always been very skeptical about anything related to body language being my problem, because so much of my interactions with people are on the phone and there's no difference with face-to-face. Eg. all the "busy" excuses are mostly said on the phone. All the "let's keep in touch!", "It was nice of you to call!", "We have to get together sometime!", "I'll call you as soon as I finish my exams!", etc. etc.


With a lie its more the lack of associated body language or it doesn't tie into what there saying, also the tone and delivery can be a big difference, even word use (can read it in text as well). There are other tells as well but are harder to notice. Can learn a lot from politicians as they lie a lot but some arn't that good at it.


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daydreamer84
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23 Jul 2012, 8:36 pm

Moondust wrote:
I've always been very skeptical about anything related to body language being my problem, because so much of my interactions with people are on the phone and there's no difference with face-to-face. Eg. all the "busy" excuses are mostly said on the phone. All the "let's keep in touch!", "It was nice of you to call!", "We have to get together sometime!", "I'll call you as soon as I finish my exams!", etc. etc.


Also people will try to fake a nice tone of voice or facial expression. If they give social cues with body language or voice tone they are subtle. As my mom explained to me it wouldn't be polite to show overtly that you were annoyed with another person or really didn't want to see them etc. How can you tell us body language is so important to learn and have us focus on it so much when people just fake it anyways. :roll: :x (that was just rhetorical question directed at the world - I know it has to do with picking up subtle nuances).



daydreamer84
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23 Jul 2012, 8:44 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Every time people have changed the subject, I have always gotten distracted and would forget about what I was talking about and not go back to what i was talking about because I would literally forget. I just thought they decided to go off topic and I was taught as a kid about staying on topic and people break that rule anyway.

I wonder what does it mean to respond to social cues right but still read them wrong? No one will ever guess you read it wrong.


Yes I HATE being interrupted too......it completely throws me off and I forget what I was going to say or I'm just annoyed. I also thought you were "supposed" to stay on topic in a conversation. Getting distracted by ones environment and then abruptly changing the subject is associated with ADHD, so I always thought that when people did that they were just distractable/ had a poor attention span. According to my mom, on the other hand, people can only listen to so much on a given topic that they aren't intensely interested or on one event in your life or whatever and at a certain point people do get distracted or just tune out but it's because the other person (me for example) has been going on too long. My mom doesn't tune out when she's talking to other people.



Moondust
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25 Jul 2012, 7:05 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
How can you tell us body language is so important to learn and have us focus on it so much when people just fake it anyways.


I think it's two different things: one is being able to understand body language, which for you and me may not be a problem, but it seems for many aspies it is. Another thing is being able to understand politics (i.e. the subterfuge in relating and the complex map of interrelated self-interest of all involved, which is at the base of why people say one thing when they mean another), which I for one am hopeless at on an instinctual basis. I'm so bad at it that I'm not able to keep relationships with people.


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KnarlyDUDE09
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25 Jul 2012, 7:09 pm

Social naivete and not being able to work out someone else motives.


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Moondust
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25 Jul 2012, 7:23 pm

Thank you for the term, Knarly! I see now in Google that social naivete is indeed the name of this aspie trait. I'm very surprised that it's not in the list of symptoms, though, and that it's almost never discussed on WP. I really would like to know why, as I feel so alone with this impairment.


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KnarlyDUDE09
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25 Jul 2012, 8:06 pm

Moondust wrote:
Thank you for the term, Knarly! I see now in Google that social naivete is indeed the name of this aspie trait. I'm very surprised that it's not in the list of symptoms, though, and that it's almost never discussed on WP. I really would like to know why, as I feel so alone with this impairment.
You are most certainly NOT alone with this! It's to do with an impairment in understanding non-verbal communication and various social cues. All the things that I'm about to mention would fall under those two categories:
NOTE: A lot of people on WP may refer to the ones listed below, when talking about your impairment, so look out for these.
-understanding facial expressions,
-tone of voice, body language,
-literal thinking -lack of understanding of figurative speech (metaphors, jokes, sarcasm)

...the term 'empathy' is also closely related, as well as the way in which one conducts oneself in various situations.

...have you ever heard of or researched a concept called, "Theory of Mind"?


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Moondust
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25 Jul 2012, 9:17 pm

I just did a Google search in WP and yes, I see now many threads about our social naivete!


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anomy
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25 Jul 2012, 11:39 pm

Moondust wrote:
I always thought people said what they really felt / thought, till I was in my forties. Nowadays I know that very often people say what is in their best interest to say (for a myriad of reasons).

I'll give several examples of what I mean, to increase the likelihood that my question is understood.

- Once, talking with a group of peers about what we wanted to study and work in, someone put down very aggressively what I mentioned I wanted to do. I had no doubt that she really hated that profession, but decades later I discovered, thinking about it, that she was actually adamant to put ME down and make me look bad. Her intent was female-female competition, and I had interpreted it as she becoming aggressive out of so much hatred for that profession.

- Till my forties, I used to believe the "busy" excuse when someone stopped wanting to meet up.

- I used to think that if someone yelled, it was because the anger they felt made them lose control over the expression of their feelings, nowadays I know that very often people yell in order to intimidate.

- I used to think that when someone said: "You can't do that!" it was because they were afraid I could get harmed in some way, that they had only my best interest in mind. Nowadays I know that people will more often say that when THEY don't want you to do something.

- I used to think that "I'm not sure I'll be able to make it" meant they weren't sure rather than "I don't want to come".

- I used to think that when someone said "I'll get back to you on that" they always meant it, but now I know that often it's a way to get rid of the question / issue.

- I used to think that everyone laughed only when they found the joke funny, now I know that very often people laugh in direct proportion to how much they want to be on the good side of the person telling the joke.


Moondust, these are great examples! and I can so related to this entire discussion. It took a long time for me to fully realize that people are not usually honest when dealing with each other socially, that in fact it is exceptional for them for them to be honest. When I do run into a person who says what they really mean, I so much appreciate it. I've known how much I appreciated this quality for most of my adult life but I didn't know for a long time that I was in fact drawn to aspies or those that share many aspie traits. Now, it all makes more sense to me.

I've also noticed that most people don't know how to react when you are just totally honest. I used to care about how it might alienate some people to be so honest but now I just figure it helps weed out the people that don't need to be in my life.



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26 Jul 2012, 12:45 am

Moondust wrote:
social naivete is indeed the name of this aspie trait. I'm very surprised that it's not in the list of symptoms, though, and that it's almost never discussed on WP. I really would like to know why, as I feel so alone with this impairment.

I read somewhere else (don't remember the source) that Aspies do not succumb as easy to peer pressure as others, but then I read this about social naiveté just now..
Quote:
The Adolescent: This may be the most difficult time for an individual with Asperger's Disorder. Those with milder forms of the disorder may first come to treatment when they are in middle school. In adolescence, social demands become more complex. Subtle social nuances become important. Some may show an increase in oppositional or aggressive behavior. Individuals with Asperger’s have difficulty understanding which of their peers might want to be a friend. A socially marginal boy might try to date the most popular girl in his class. He will probably experience rejection. He is unaware that some other girl might accept his invitation. Because of his social naiveté, he may not realize when someone is trying to take advantage of him. He can be especially vulnerable to manipulation and peer pressure.
( source: http://www.ncpamd.com/aspergers.htm )

Confused.. :huh:

From my own life, I remember people taking advantage of me never saying no to favours or to lending them my bike/boat/scooter, some friend of my big brother even came to me once and talked me into lending him my brothers boat while drunk. When I were around 17yo, someone told me that I don't always have to say yes and people often have hidden agendas (which in turn made me paranoid about the motives of others), so for a long time I did almost the opposite, until I realized saying no almost always was not the solution either.

However, my mom, dad, brother, sister, and almost all my friends smoked, but I never succumbed to that peer pressure.


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KnarlyDUDE09
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27 Jul 2012, 7:04 am

Blownmind wrote:
someone told me that I don't always have to say yes and people often have hidden agendas (which in turn made me paranoid about the motives of others), so for a long time I did almost the opposite, until I realized saying no almost always was not the solution either.
I used to say "yes" (or "ok") all the time, as well because I thought that was what one was supposed to say if a person asked you an imperative question (one asking you to do something for them). More honest people that I know, like my my older sister told me that I am not compelled to meet the demands of others- including herself, and that it is fine to say "no". Now, I no longer say no all the time, people now respect me and see me as an even more honest person than they did before. Although, when I first did this some people that used to take advantage of my 'niceness' (always saying "yes"), were surprised and shocked when I would not yield to them, but they eventually got used to it.


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Moondust
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27 Jul 2012, 11:08 am

Blownmind, that's a good one to ponder indeed. I'm confused too. I guess one thing is believing lies, another is doing what we don't want to do.


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27 Jul 2012, 12:13 pm

Moondust wrote:
Blownmind, that's a good one to ponder indeed. I'm confused too. I guess one thing is believing lies, another is doing what we don't want to do.


There is a difference between peer-pressure and peer-manipulation. Possibly less of the former, but more of the latter. The behaviours may average out in practice.

A lot of aspies are stereotyped as rule followers, so this explains why some people say aspies will not succumb to peer pressure, on the other hand aspies are also said to challenge all authority and reject unfair rules.

I don't speed, walk on the grass, litter, steal or cheat. On the other hand I break many social rules and experimented with illegal substances in my early 20's (note: when I had left home and school).

Jason.



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27 Jul 2012, 3:16 pm

Jtuk wrote:
Moondust wrote:
Blownmind, that's a good one to ponder indeed. I'm confused too. I guess one thing is believing lies, another is doing what we don't want to do.
There is a difference between peer-pressure and peer-manipulation. Possibly less of the former, but more of the latter. The behaviours may average out in practice.

A lot of aspies are stereotyped as rule followers, so this explains why some people say aspies will not succumb to peer pressure, on the other hand aspies are also said to challenge all authority and reject unfair rules.

I don't speed, walk on the grass, litter, steal or cheat. On the other hand I break many social rules and experimented with illegal substances in my early 20's (note: when I had left home and school).

Ahh, that explains a few things. I learned from my parents that is was illegal to smoke before I was 18, and if I managed to keep away from sigarettes, they would sponsor my drivers license. However, stealing was socially acceptable, or atleast so I thought. I didn't know it was a law against it when I were 7-9 years old. I stole chewing gum, fishing hooks and toothpaste. I saw someone eating candy from the "selfpick" candy boxes (don't know the english word for it), and I had also observed people eating grapes in the store without paying. Logically, stealing was socially acceptable, and therefore ok. I did learn how wrong I was before I was caught, luckily.


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