Suicide as an alternative option for lifelong torment.

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I'm sure many a dead samurai who committed sepukku to preserve their honor would disagree with you. Anyways I would like you all to reflect on this writing of Arthur Schopenhauer regarding suicide:

"As far as I know, none but the votaries of monotheistic, that is to say, Jewish religions, look upon suicide as a crime. This is all the more striking, inasmuch as neither in the Old or in the New Testament is there to be found any prohibition or positive disapproval of it; so that religious teachers are forced to base their condemnation of suicide on philosophical grounds of their own invention. These are so very bad that writers of this kind endeavor to make up for the weakness of their arguments by the strong terms in which they express their abhorrence of the practice; in other words, they declaim against it. They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it, and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong, when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.

Suicide, as I have said, is actually accounted a crime; and a crime which, especially under the vulgar bigotry that prevails in England, is followed by an ignominious burial and the seizure of the man's property; and for that reason, in a case of suicide, the jury almost always bring in a verdict of insanity. Now let the reader's own moral feelings decide as to whether suicide is a criminal act. Think of the impression that would be made upon you by the news that someone you know had committed the crime, say, of murder or theft, or been guilty of some act of cruelty or deception; and compare it with your feelings when you hear that he has met a voluntary death. While in the one case a lively sense of indignation and extreme resentment will be aroused, and you will call loudly for punishment or revenge, in the other you will be moved to grief and sympathy; and mingled with your thoughts will be admiration for his courage, rather than the moral disapproval which follows upon a wicked action.

Who has not had acquaintances, friends, relations, who of their own free will have left this world; and are these to be thought of with horror as criminals? Most emphatically No! I am rather of the opinion that the clergy should be challenged to explain what right they have to go into the pulpit, or take up their pens, and stamp as a crime an action which many men whom we hold in affection and honor have committed; and to refuse an honorable burial to those who relinquish this world voluntarily. They have no Biblical authority to boast of, as justifying the condemnation of suicide; nay, not even any philosophical arguments that will hold water; and it must be understood that it is arguments we want, and that we will not be put off with mere phrases or words of abuse. If the criminal law forbids suicide, that is not an argument valid in the church; and besides, the prohibition is ridiculous; for what penalty can frighten a man who is not afraid of death itself? If the law punishes people for trying to commit suicide, it is punishing the want of skill that makes the attempt a failure.

The ancients, moreover, were very far from regarding the matter in that light. Pliny says: Life is not so desirable a thing as to be protracted at any cost. Whoever you are, you are sure to die, even though your life has been full of abomination and crime. The chief of all remedies for a troubled mind is the feeling that among the blessings which Nature gives to man there is none greater than an opportune death; and the best of it is that every one of us can avail himself of it 1. And elsewhere the same writer declares: Not even to God are all things possible; for he could not compass his own death, if he willed to die, and yet in all the miseries of our earthly life this is the best of his gifts to man 2. Nay, in Massilia and on the isle of Ceos, the man who could give valid reasons for relinquishing his life was handed the cup of hemlock by the magistrate, and that, too, in public 3. And in ancient times how many heroes and wise men died a voluntary death. Aristotle 4 , it is true, declared suicide to be an offense against the State; but in Stobaeus's exposition of the Peripatetic philosophy there is the following remark: The good man should flee life when his misfortunes become too great; the bad man, also, when he is too prosperous. And similarly: So he will marry and beget children and take part in the affairs of the State, and, generally, practice virtue and continue to live; and then, again, if need be, and at any time necessity compels him, he will depart to his place of refuge in the tomb5. And we find that the Stoics actually praised suicide as a noble and heroic action as hundreds of passages show; above all in the works of Seneca, who expresses the strongest approval of it. As is well known, the Hindus look upon suicide as a religious act, especially when it takes the form of self-immolation by widows; but also when it consists in casting oneself under the wheels of the chariot of the god of Juggernaut, or being eaten by crocodiles in the Ganges, or being drowned in the holy tanks in the temples, and so on. The same thing occurs on the stage - that mirror of life. For example, in L'Orphelin de la Chine 6, a celebrated Chinese play, almost all the characters end by suicide; without the slightest hint anywhere, or any impression being produced on the spectator, that they are committing a crime. And in our own theater it is much the same - Palmira, for example, in Mahomet, or Mortimer in Maria Stuart, Othello, Countess Terzky. Is Hamlet's monologue the meditation of a criminal? He merely declares that if we had any certainty of being annihilated by it, death would be infinitely preferable to the world as it is. But there lies the rub!

The reasons advanced against suicide by the clergy of monotheistic, that is to say, Jewish religions, and by those philosophers who adapt themselves thereto, are weak sophisms which can be easily refuted 7 . The most thorough-going refutation of them is given by Hume in his Essay on Suicide. This did not appear until after his death, when it was immediately suppressed, owing to the scandalous bigotry and outrageous ecclesiastical tyranny that prevailed in England; and hence only a few copies of it were sold under cover of secrecy and at high price. This and another treatise by that great man have come to us from Basle, and we may be thankful for the reprint 8. It is a great disgrace to the English nation that a purely philosophical treatise, which, proceeding from one of the first thinkers and writers in England, aimed at refuting the current arguments against suicide by the light of cold reason, should be forced to sneak about in that country as though it were some rascally production, until at last it found refuge on the Continent. At the same time it shows what a good conscience the Church has in such matters.

In my chief work I have explained the only valid reason existing against suicide on the score of morality. It is this: that suicide thwarts the attainment of the highest moral aim by the fact that, for a real release from this world of misery, it substitutes one that is merely apparent. But from a mistake to a crime is a far cry; and it is as a crime that the clergy of Christendom wish us to regard suicide.

The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering - the Cross - is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end; whilst the ancient world, taking a lower point of view, held it in approval, nay, in honor. But if that is to be accounted a valid reason against suicide it invokes the recognition of asceticism; that is to say, it is valid only from a much higher ethical standpoint than has ever been adopted by moral philosophers in Europe. If we abandon that high standpoint, there is no tenable reason left, on the score of morality, for condemning suicide. The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention. May it not be this - that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that all things were very good? If this is so, it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions - denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it.

It will generally be found that, as soon as the terrors of life reach the point at which they outweigh the terrors of death, a man will put an end to his own life. But the terrors of death offer considerable resistance; they stand like a sentinel at the gate leading out of this world. Perhaps there is no man alive who would not have already put an end to his own life, if this end had been of a purely negative character, a sudden stoppage of existence. There is something positive about it; it is the destruction of the body; and a man shrinks from that, because his body is the manifestation of the will to live.

However, the struggle with that sentinel is, as a rule, not so hard as it seems from a long way off, mainly in consequence of the antagonism between the ills of the body and the ills of the mind. If we are in great bodily pain, or the pain lasts a long time, we become indifferent to other troubles; all we think about is to get well. In the same way great mental suffering makes us insensible to bodily pain; we despise it; nay, if it should outweigh the other, it distracts our thoughts, and we welcome it as a pause in mental suffering. It is this feeling that makes suicide easy; for the bodily pain that accompanies it loses all significance in the eyes of one who is tortured by an excess of mental suffering. This is especially evident in the case of those who are driven to suicide by some purely morbid and exaggerated ill-humor. No special effort to overcome their feelings is necessary, nor do such people require to be worked up in order to take the step; but as soon as the keeper in whose charge they are given leaves them for a couple of minutes they quickly bring their lives to an end.

When, in some dreadful and ghastly dream, we reach the moment of greatest horror, it awakes us; thereby banishing all the hideous shapes that were born of the night. And life is a dream; when the moment of greatest horror compels us to break it off, the same thing happens.

Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment - a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man's existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer."

This is another reason not to be too thrilled about surviving a suicide attempt....then you get to be alive for people to look down on you for being in so much pain you couldn't take it any more and judging you as some weak willed person with no self respect for resorting to a suicide attempt....stigma always helps the stigmatized individuals don't you know.

All the more reason to prove them wrong by bouncing back and making something of yourself, rather than moping around regretting that you failed to kill yourself or planning a next attempt.

Bouncing back? what makes you think everyone had a chance to ever even get to a point worth bouncing back to?...but I am not going to argue about it, point was most people don't understand how it feels to be suicidal and therefore wont see it from the perspective of someone who's been there they will see it as 'how dare that suicidal person not be able to withstand the pain they were in to keep from doing that to everyone else.' sort of perspective.

Exactly (bolded). While Zokk clearly has a healthy will to live as exemplified by his strong statements; he is clearly clueless about what it feels like to be severely / suicidally depressed and the circumstances (both medical and situational) that can put a person in such a dark place and the associated difficulties of extricating oneself from there.

another thing going on here I think is the actual word "suicide". its sounds really sharp (like "slice") and makes me think right away of sharp things like a guillotine and a pirate's knife. You have to admit that if it sounded something like "flurmbuh" that this would be a whole different discussion.

I've never been depressed to the point of being suicidal, but I have been depressed to the point of being near-homicidal. I guess my brain works differently than most, that way. No need to fear, though; I'm not a potential murderer, spree killer or serial killer when I'm extremely depressed. Even then, my conscience always keeps my actions in check, for the most part- I've never actually physically hurt anyone during those periods, though I've really, really wanted to at times.

I've never felt homicidal while depressed. When I'm at that low point all the fight in me is gone, there is no anger, no hatred or animosity towards anyone. I just want to go to sleep and never wake up again. If I was an android I'd just flick the OFF switch.

I alternate between that and borderline-homicidal when I'm severely depressed (or technically, was, severely depressed). When I had nothing to do, or had exhaused my remaining interest in the things I still had interest in, then I just wanted to go to sleep and only wake up again when something new and interesting happened. It was when I was frustrated and angry with the people around me (either compounded or created by the depression; possibly both) that I started to think about hurting them.

Indeed, it's easier to tell someone to do something when they are not on their shoes, like someone telling a person with PTSD to simply forget his traumatic past, or a person with OCD to simply stop thinking about his/her obsessions, no, it's not that simple, nothing is really simple, I find people who judge suicide victims as cowards indicative of the causative factors that drove them to suicide in the first place: a judgmental society.

Well, hate to break it to you, but humans are instinctively judgmental. It's part of who we are as a species. It's part of how we rationalize and organize our perception of reality: We judge everything, try to categorize it, in order to create a sense of understanding of it. People, places, things; it all gets judged and filed away for future reference. Sometimes those judgments are harsh, and when we share them with other people, they may be offended or otherwise emotionally affected by them. Such is life inside the human mind, both on the giving and receiving end of it. Only way to get past those harsh judgements t hat are shared with us is to accept them and to think about how to change and improve so we won't be judged like that again.

Well humans are inherently selfish themselves but it doesn't mean we should indulge in the natural vices of our human nature, that is why there is the concept of charity, as for being judgmental, there is also a panacea for that: understanding.

Regarding people who are suicidal the "shape up boy" military style approach won't serve to pull anyone from the depths of suicidal depression.

Indeed, an unsympathetic and draconian approach to suicidal patients further aggravates his condition rather than alleviate it, that's why in nursing we have something we call "Therapeutic Communication".

I think about suicide fairly regularly, but I haven't properly been suicidal for a long time. I think in a lot of cases, suicide is not rationally thought through. It's not cowardly, brave, selfish, selfless, or whatever...it's a medical problem. It's a symptom of illness.

There are logically thought through suicides, but they are rare in Western culture, since we don't have a tradition of suicide as a way of preserving honour. Suicide is a desperate attempt to make pain stop.

Yeah I imagine it would make things worse.