Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS ?.

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I appreciate your rational response. To clarify, I never said I, as an individual, was highly rationale. And I never said you, as an individual, were highly irrational.

But for the record, it wasn't intended to be a "dig" at Who_Am_I so much as an observation. And yes, as it is how I feel there is most defiantly an emotional component to my response. But I feel there's one to hers as well.

I would agree. There's emotion in my response as well.

I didn't feel anyone was calling me irrational.

Oh Good,
Are you all friends again ?.

This is actually not true that rationality is about a valid conclusion.




And we are sane. And if you would make a research about ability of aspies and would compare that to the way they are perceived I could bet that they are undervalued. So a conclusion that we are unfairly treated is rational



That is not a good example, because people in a different state are never very rational. For the normal state aspie I would say he/she is very rational.



Everybody has the right to be different. Society however will force you to follow the codex, which is not rational in all aspects. Within boudaries, and those should be much more open,
everybody should be allowed to develop his/her character to comfort. This is not given for aspies, because they cannot comfort with being condemned.



Moral is never irrelevant because it sets the boundaries within which you should operate. Moral is an essential component that'll make you possible to trust others.



NTs are forgetting quite often base moral aspects when they'll get told that this has to be done such. Business aspects tend to be much more important than moral aspects



If you see it as that NTs are learning totally differently and will just suck in whatever you'll present for them, then they don't think. They don't question things as much as we do.
And they wouldn't build up a bottom up reasoning

Rationality is not about excluding emotions, because emotions are an essential part of your life. If you would exclude them then that would be not irrational but wrong
Including them in discussions about emotions is really logic. The point is merely that emotions should not bring you away from the truth.

Faith is neither irrational because everybody believes in something (all the things that you'll take granted are something you believe in which is quite similar than how a religion should be, defining or filling the holes that you cannot fill with rationality). I though think that religions are probably not totally free of irrationality.

This somehow sounds here also such that you'd declare that only an NT perspective could be rational (only the majority declares what is rational and what is not)

i do rationalize things to an extended degree, but i do not use buzz words like "uber". if you are from germany, then it may be forgiven.

symptoms of AS pertaining to you can not be plotted by asking people who think they have AS what they think of your own predicament (which a true AS person may not have much time set aside to consider)

I've made similar statements on this forum.



Huh?

I said that rationality is more likely to give you a valid conclusion. Conversely, irrationality is more likely to give you an invalid conclusion.


Rationality could tell you that, but only if your data are valid.


That is your subjective opinion. Citing most of the OPs in The Haven disproves your opinion, and even establishes a strong correlation between AS and irrationality.


What does having the right to be different have to do with comforting? If I want to be comforted, there is no condemnation, only compassion.


a. Morality is a religious construct.
b. Religion is obsolete.
: : Morality is obsolete.


Again, morality is a religious construct, and even religious organizations will violate their own moral code if it means making money for their leaders.


That is your subjective opinion. It reads very much like what antebellum slave-owners said about Africans, and what Hitler said about the Jews. This makes yours as much of a bigoted statement as theirs; thus, it is irrelevant.

Your contempt for NTs is obvious. All the rest of your claims were likely made to support your narrow-minded viewpoints and establish Aspies as a "Superior Race".

Don't know what happened bu this was an old version

Last edited by onks on 12 Oct 2012, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well this one was in the context slightly irrational, because involving feelings.
But there is a point that you could discuss about really deeply,
how much aspies should adapt because of rationality?

To explain:

Rationality is, as it seems, just the ability to make logic conclusions, though from your point of view, thus being subjective.
If you'd go to low level, that would anyway mean involving your opinions, because you'd at some stage have to involve that what you believe in.

Belief (not in the sense of religion or faith) has some kind of rational arguing as well, and just this would be the point to discuss here. By using facts you'd be able to extend your reasoning to even lower level.

Now, all I wanted to say, which was not clear, I agree,

is that the low level begins much at a higher "abstraction level" for NTs then for aspies.
They'd simply take many more things for granted, which we wouldn't.

That's also why I am a bit surprised, that you'd sort of think that aspies are not rational
and from that came the logical conclusion, that you'd think, that we should surrender to NTs rationality, being a clear minority whose arguments cannot be understood or accepted.

Now for oneself, I am pretty sure one should be NT-like as much as possible, because that makes your life easier.
But that is not at all logic, anyway.

However, and that is now a subjective opinion almost

our logic goes beyond this, involving more aspects that come from understanding the low level, that NTs have lost their connection to.
And if you build your opinion about the world from these lower level experience than you'd more probably come to a more reasonable conclusion.

That aspies would sense a lower level is a statement as well, of course, because being here not a very long time I am missing some experience about what is common for aspies.

I am happy though that you agree that feelings are important and that they are part of reasoning (again a subjective argument). That is I think also merely a matter of taste or faith or whatever non logical, if you'd discuss deeply about it.

You could even say "I am because I feel something" instead of "I am because I think". Now what goes deeper. Thinking or feeling?

For me feelings are an important part of my life that are maybe different but still very real (I'd hope so) and important. It would feel stupid and irrational to not include them. And it feels also stupid to exclude them in your self evaluation.

Last edited by onks on 12 Oct 2012, 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I do not understand this. It is not rational.
I did not use "uber" because its a "buzz word" (is this a buzz phrase ?), I used it to express the level to which rational thinking dictates my opinions and decisions. I have always had extreme difficulty with spelling and the use of words, I suspect that I have dyslexia (but obviously not a TRUE dyslectic, because some expert has never given his/her opinion !.), this is what I refer to as a rational conclusion given that regardless how many times I spell a word or write a passage, I will always spell the words wrong and get the words out of order.One of my first posts on this site was to find out how to download or access a splellchecker to avoid having to cut and paste out of a word processor.
What is a true AS person ?. I'm assuming you mean someone who has been to see an expert and in their opinion has AS, correct me if I'm wrong that AS diagnosis is not like cancer or Aids you can't go and get a blood or DNA test and find out whether you are a TRUE AS sufferer.
The reason I THINK I have AS, is because rationally it provides the answers to explain all the problems that have plagued me my entire life. I do not want AS, I want answers and the only way to get them is to asked questions. The fact that you think the symptoms of AS can be plotted by an expert without AS and yet can't be plotted by people with AS (or think they have AS) to me is totally irrational.
What do TRUE people with AS set time about to consider ?.
I 'm constantly thinking. What I thinking about depends on what ever has raised a question that I feel I need to explain, an example would be "Why 80% of the truly atrocious drivers I come across (I drive a lorry for a living ( a symptom of AS ?. my need for seclusion/inability to connect and work with others, the opinion of a TRUE AS sufferer like yourself would be welcome)) are women, and yet women are considered by Insurance companies to be "Safer Drivers" (already rationalised, but not prov en, can't be bothered, got other things to think about now and not really important in the first place).
I strongly suspect that you are the type of person that would turn up wearing his Teeshirt at an "Aspie Pride" march only to be alarmed by the number of people in attendance (thereby making you less special) and going off to start a "TRUE Aspie Pride" group. (Again misjudging people and their intentions is one of my issues, A symptom of AS ?. The opinion of a TRUE sufferer would be welcome).
Whilst I can rationalise the need to belong to a tribe and label oneself, (given the known facts about human evolution), I can't rationalise or understand (given the afore mentioned known facts) why people still do it.
I believe that there is a rational explanation for everything (including why I'm attracted to slim women with prominent cheek bones and why my favourite colour is blue), the fact that everything can't be answered does not mean that it is not rational it just means it has not been explained yet.
You can't find any answers unless you asked questions !. ( eg. Is My Rationality a Symptom Of AS).
Is the reason I feel so different from everyone else, because I'm a rational person living in a totally irrational society.
Religion is irrational. Therefore any decisions based on it are irrational.
Humanity is a form of planetary cancer, but cancer unlike us can't think " Hang on if we carry on like this, we will just consume and destroy the thing on which we depend". NOT RATIONAL BEHAVIOUR!.
Am I the only person that THINKS (and wants to understand) as opposed to FEELS about things ?.
No doubt I will be branded a HERETIC by all you "Aspies" (TRUE and otherwise) and burnt at the stake !.
IF you are going to answer any of my posts try and THINK not FEEL !.

Well, you didn't mention the word "likely". It is also a good question what is "valid".
But it seems that rationality is a subjective aspect, including that you'd have to be sane and logic
on the basis of your own experience, though.



That is true.


Now, that everybody is sometimes irrational is pretty obvious. But you can't conclude from a state that is unnormal for most of the aspies,, that they are irrational. At Haven, everybody tends to be at least partly irrational. Though there are some rational aspects behind it I'd say.




Ok , this one made me lough about myself, I just translated nonsense. What I meant instead of comfort was to "feel comfortable with"



No it is not. That was just the point, because it goes far beyond it (although religion has quite an impact on it).
You'd not do things because you know that other people wouldn't like it.
That is I think the basis of moral, that you'd understand that it is no use for you to do something bad to others because the might be doing it to you otherwise. This kind of "moral precursor" btw even exists with animals.


Now that is a claim on your side. I'd at least not hope that, though I am not sure whether you could be actually right...


Yeah just said without the context you are right. Though, it boils down to some of the statements that I have the impression that NTs tend to forget the roots.



Well, that would be stupid. There is a point of not going as deep as possible as you can. That'll reduce your level of brain usage or it will free it for interpreting non verbal things, which we are bad at.

In the end we should discuss about wether we (aspies) are able to see more; and more general things,
and whether this is important to take into account for future improvements (or something that goes into that direction)

or in general is there a use for it, that would make it worth to accept aspies with their traits?

Let me add something to this male vs. female spectrum debate. Mind the fact that we are simply typing on a forum here with only words mostly devoid of emotion to begin with. Sure we thrive in those enviorenments but attempting to judge a persons rationality solely by what they write is going to be a bit off.

And let me mention that I've known some aspie males that were not always the most rational.

I think that this is a really good point, about how far you should go down to the roots of understanding that you can build up a chain.
I'd say the further you can use the "bottom-up" approach the more you'll find the best solution.

I'd find it hard to belief at least so far that you could use a "top-down" reasoning, but I wouldn't want to exclude that, either.



Ok, your reply is not so easy to answer, because it is difficult to find a structuring (like additional carriage returns)
but you are using yourself as an argument. I like that because you describe many things. Of course this is not generalizable so easily.
I like your argument that you spot that "The fact that you think the symptoms of AS can be plotted by an expert without AS and yet can't be plotted by people with AS (or think they have AS) to me is totally irrational."

I think that there are too entirely different perspectives. One aspie one and one NT one.
A NT wouldn't probably understand the aspie perpective and the aspie would'nt probably understand the NT perspective
Here is also reasoning an important aspect. People that ignore a broader assessment could be more often wrong. Now I'd claim that NTs would not be interested to question things that appear to them to be very clear, but they actually aren't that trivial the aspie would say.
(Well maybe they are and the aspie was just wrong in that particular case)

Anyway from that point of view, that aspies go deeper in the material, it is more likely that an aspie could through reasoning understand NT behaviour, because he/she'd be typically interested.
The normal NT, however is not interested (now that's a claim). This is about the difference you could think exists.

A problem is of course that the aspies could have difficulties to explain their own feelings. Whilst for NTs this is maybe easier, though, same as for the aspie's situation, difficult to understand.

I'd also vote for that there is always a rational explanation for everything.

And I think a lot about my feelings...

Why do you think that TRUE sufferers arguments are so important? And why do you think that women aspies suffer more?

My point is that Aspies can be irrational, not that Aspies are by definition irrational. I also do not think that being emotional means being irrational. Many emotional reactions are quite rational - for example, being in fear for your life while a grizzly bear chases you.

I don't think Aspies or any other autistic people should be forced to change and adapt to NTs and such change and adaptation can be very difficult for many of us. I think that for the most part, we're fine as we are, and if anyone needs or wants to change something then that's up to them.



This is not a subjective argument, but a statement of empirical fact.

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/deci ... ion-making
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... ris-mooney

Emotions are an intrinsic part of the reasoning process.



I agree.

I cut out parts of your post that I did not know what to do with or how to respond to them.

If I have got it now right then rationality is not really about that you are right, neither that you involve feelings,
just that you would stay consistent, sane and logical. And that you would use all your experience.
It is subjective.

äähm now I'd have to conclude that both NTs and aspies and aspie female and aspie male are rational.
Great. I'm such a great word twister ... hehe