Are there autistic people who are psychopath/serial killer?

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Ganondox
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09 Dec 2012, 8:02 am

Dillogic wrote:

Didn't a professor testify at the trial that he (Anders) had Asperger's though (including a PD and possible psychoses)? That's something you can't ignore (even if it's not a "formal" diagnosis in a clinic).

Yep, one Ulrik Fredrik Malt.

He also said Tourette syndrome, narcissistic personality disorder and possibly paranoid psychosis, so Aspergers is hardly relevant. The thing the people who actually diagnosed him after it all concluded he had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

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ProvokesThinking
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09 Dec 2012, 9:21 am

Jasmine90 wrote:

You can't empathize because you have aspergers? Sorry, but that's is a load of crock.

People with autism express empathy differently to NT, it does not mean we lack empathy at all.

Sure there are people on the spectrum who lack empathy, but that is true of most groups of people.

You will find this among nuerotypicals, you will find this with people who suffer from depression, you will find this with schizophrenics, or someone who has had a bad upbringing etc...

As for the actual question... Sure there have been murderers diagnosed with autism. In fact, I read about someone who was a member from here who was exactly that.

But again, you cannot limit murderous or criminal behavior to any one thing in particular. People have different motives, often times serial killers are attempting to satisfy their unusual sexual needs, some people who commit murder are wanting to inherit money or cover up their infidelity, so on and so forth.

You have to be more than just autistic to be capable of murdering someone without any sense of guilt and remorse.

Maybe I didn't say it quite right. People with Aspergers don't have good cognitive empathy, but they feel a lot of affective empathy in the sense of well-being for others. That's kinda true, because I always want my pet to be happy and I always want to help other people. This is also the case with other people with autism who I know, I just wondered this question in the OP because I think there have to be people with autism too who don't have any empathy, nor cognitive empathy, nor affective empathy.

ProvokesThinking
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09 Dec 2012, 9:35 am

LabPet wrote:

Geez. Where is this rubbish coming from? Does logic elude? Autism/AS does not, at all, equate to the psychopathology of serial killers. In fact, the contrary. To clarify, lack of empathy (btw, which is poorly termed - blaming Simon Baron-Cohen for this blooper) means to not intuit the emotive states of another. In fact, on the spectrum individuals are known to be, by nature, kind and compassionate (albeit we can be distanced). This 'mindblindness' (aka lack of empathy) can be misconstrued by laypersons because the terms are not defined. That is, there is a naivete amongst spectrum individuals that can be an almost childlike trust. Conversely, on the opposite end, are serial killers who truly do not give a god damn. In so far as Brevik, in my opinion, he's nuts. I almost do not care, at all, what his 'official' Dx is because he's so screwed-up that it is really a moot point. Geez :roll:

Now fixing myself a bowl of cereal......sigh.

re: below. Ditto. I kill cereal most mornings. Coocoo for cocoa puffs - the Lab Pet is on a rampage.

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

redrobin62 wrote:

Who was a member here that became a serial killer?

I'm a cereal killer. Does that count?

I've been a cereal killer my entire life.

I hunted Count Chocula to extinction, much to my later regret.

OMG I love count chocula! But frankenberry is my favorite. Only downside is it turns your poop purple. Come to think of it, purple poops is a pretty catchy name for a cereal.

Yeah, I love that one too, and Boo-Berry. But Count Chocula will always be my favorite. I'm glad they started reissuing them for Halloween every year.

If you read my OP you would be aware about it that I actually say that a lot of people with autism are caring people who are lovely and want others to be good. That's my experience too. I just can't be convinced of the claim that 100% of the people with autism have remorse and guilt. I wonder about what people with autism are like who are obviously autistic and not a psychopath, but who have a lack of remorse and thus have a combination of autism and psychopathy.

r84shi37
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09 Dec 2012, 10:08 am

I frequently don't feel remorse depending on the circumstances; I honestly don't think this would ever make me want to kill someone. I actually worry sometimes about being in a situation i.e someone holding a gun to my sister's head requiring me to shoot them to save her life. Of course, I will probably never come close to this type of situation (I don't want to join the military) but it still troubles me sometimes. I really don't want to kill someone even if it's justified.

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ProvokesThinking
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09 Dec 2012, 10:17 am

r84shi37 wrote:

But in which circumstances do you feel remorse and in which circumstances not? Do you only not feel remorse if your action is justified, for instance to protect somebody, or do you also have this in situations in which you have hurted people?

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09 Dec 2012, 10:25 am

The remorse side of things has nothing to do with being a killer.

Austistics that kill do so do to an inability to deal with other people.

The myth that were all docile is totally false.

Its very easy for aspies to be violent agressive, and murderous.

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09 Dec 2012, 10:30 am

OK, in all sincerity, I think you're considering those rare individuals who are truly on the fringe of society.

Don't we all sometimes watch the tv news, encountering the rare news story about a horrific killer (e.g. Brevik (sp?)), realising that these rarities, these psychopaths amongst us, are truly outside the scope of humans we engage with each day. Psychopathic individuals who are so profoundly mentally disturbed, so pathologically twisted, that their diagnosis is a moot point. In actuality, even the most astute diagnostician cannot accurately diagnosis any such monster, because they're horrific behaviour is so grossly out of bounds such that it no longer matters. For instance, I think most intelligent people will confidently agree that Hitler was a heinous individual. That's a given. What was actually wrong with Hitler? Was his mother mean to him? Was he mistreated as a child? From my standpoint, who cares? It no longer matters. What matters is the wake of horror such a monster can propagate. This is what psychopaths feed on. Our societal rules, our ethical values, are discarded in light of such monsters. Jack the Ripper lived in another time that was another culture, but he too was in that peculiar shady realm of hate.

It is important for us all to remember that autism/AS is merely a diagnostic label, and nothing more or less. There is greater diversity amongst Aspies than amongst the general populace. To try to disseminate who these psychopathic monsters actually are is like trying to find the root cause of, say, an earthquake of another natural disaster. Such preponderance is beyond any one of us. A philosopher will surmise that there is a killer within us all. Well, yes, even the most normal/healthy people (NTs and Aspies alike) can hate. Who hasn't hated, say, their boss? Their mean ex-bf or gf? But we are confined by our ethics and our morality - we are not heinous self-serving monsters.

There is a saying to never ask why. That is, when one has wronged us so horribly, it is natural to ask why?!? Then we can make ourselves literally sick trying to work out why, when there truly is no answer. Suffice to say, there is evil in this world. Just know, and have faith (in a non-religious way, if you know what I mean) that these monsters who are so callous are rare. So rare that most of will never encounter one vis-a-vis (hopefully) and we can only watch them on our tv news, within the safety of our 'normal' world. Aspies are good, we are safe, and we sometimes ask why too much.

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ProvokesThinking
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09 Dec 2012, 10:38 am

LabPet wrote:

OK, in all sincerity, I think you're considering those rare individuals who are truly on the fringe of society.

Don't we all sometimes watch the tv news, encountering the rare news story about a horrific killer (e.g. Brevik (sp?)), realising that these rarities, these psychopaths amongst us, are truly outside the scope of humans we engage with each day. Psychopathic individuals who are so profoundly mentally disturbed, so pathologically twisted, that their diagnosis is a moot point. In actuality, even the most astute diagnostician cannot accurately diagnosis any such monster, because they're horrific behaviour is so grossly out of bounds such that it no longer matters. For instance, I think most intelligent people will confidently agree that Hitler was a heinous individual. That's a given. What was actually wrong with Hitler? Was his mother mean to him? Was he mistreated as a child? From my standpoint, who cares? It no longer matters. What matters is the wake of horror such a monster can propagate. This is what psychopaths feed on. Our societal rules, our ethical values, are discarded in light of such monsters. Jack the Ripper lived in another time that was another culture, but he too was in that peculiar shady realm of hate.

It is important for us all to remember that autism/AS is merely a diagnostic label, and nothing more or less. There is greater diversity amongst Aspies than amongst the general populace. To try to disseminate who these psychopathic monsters actually are is like trying to find the root cause of, say, an earthquake of another disaster. Such preponderance is beyond any one of us. A philosopher will surmise that there is a killer within us all. Well, yes, even the most normal/healthy people (NTs and Aspies alike) can hate. Who hasn't hated, say, their boss? Their mean ex-bf or gf? But we are confined by our ethics and our morality - we are not heinous self-serving monsters.

There is a saying to never ask why. That is, when one has wronged us so horribly, it is natural to ask why?!? Then we can make ourselves literally sick trying to work out why, when there truly is no answer. Suffice to say, there is evil in this world. Just know, and have faith (in a non-religious way, if you know what I mean) that these monsters who are so callous are rare. So rare that most of will never encounter one vis-a-vis (hopefully) and we can only watch them on our tv news, within the safety of our 'normal' world. Aspies are good, we are safe, and we sometimes ask why too much.

I, as an undiagnosed Aspie, doesn't agree with you that all Aspies are good. Maybe you and me are good Aspies, but I just can't be convinced of claims by people here that ALL the Aspies, 100% of them are good people, I just can't believe that there aren't Aspies who have a combination with psychopathy and/or are just plain evil, but are autistic too. I think that if an Aspie is depressed enough and is hated by enough people it's very well possible for a very small part of allt he Aspies to turn into a very agressive being who wants to hurt other people, the fact that you are an Aspie doesn't mean that you can't have a brain defect which gives you a small remorse. What I 'm interested in though is if there are Aspies who have a combination of psychopathy and who lie all the time for instance, while they are autistic too. This is because one of my obsessions is psychiatry and this is something what I really wonder about.

Ganondox
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09 Dec 2012, 11:26 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

LabPet wrote:

OK, in all sincerity, I think you're considering those rare individuals who are truly on the fringe of society.

Don't we all sometimes watch the tv news, encountering the rare news story about a horrific killer (e.g. Brevik (sp?)), realising that these rarities, these psychopaths amongst us, are truly outside the scope of humans we engage with each day. Psychopathic individuals who are so profoundly mentally disturbed, so pathologically twisted, that their diagnosis is a moot point. In actuality, even the most astute diagnostician cannot accurately diagnosis any such monster, because they're horrific behaviour is so grossly out of bounds such that it no longer matters. For instance, I think most intelligent people will confidently agree that Hitler was a heinous individual. That's a given. What was actually wrong with Hitler? Was his mother mean to him? Was he mistreated as a child? From my standpoint, who cares? It no longer matters. What matters is the wake of horror such a monster can propagate. This is what psychopaths feed on. Our societal rules, our ethical values, are discarded in light of such monsters. Jack the Ripper lived in another time that was another culture, but he too was in that peculiar shady realm of hate.

It is important for us all to remember that autism/AS is merely a diagnostic label, and nothing more or less. There is greater diversity amongst Aspies than amongst the general populace. To try to disseminate who these psychopathic monsters actually are is like trying to find the root cause of, say, an earthquake of another disaster. Such preponderance is beyond any one of us. A philosopher will surmise that there is a killer within us all. Well, yes, even the most normal/healthy people (NTs and Aspies alike) can hate. Who hasn't hated, say, their boss? Their mean ex-bf or gf? But we are confined by our ethics and our morality - we are not heinous self-serving monsters.

There is a saying to never ask why. That is, when one has wronged us so horribly, it is natural to ask why?!? Then we can make ourselves literally sick trying to work out why, when there truly is no answer. Suffice to say, there is evil in this world. Just know, and have faith (in a non-religious way, if you know what I mean) that these monsters who are so callous are rare. So rare that most of will never encounter one vis-a-vis (hopefully) and we can only watch them on our tv news, within the safety of our 'normal' world. Aspies are good, we are safe, and we sometimes ask why too much.

But if we convince ourself that all aspies are good and only the other knowingly commits evil than we can feel better about ourselves!

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Stoek
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09 Dec 2012, 11:28 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

LabPet wrote:

OK, in all sincerity, I think you're considering those rare individuals who are truly on the fringe of society.

Don't we all sometimes watch the tv news, encountering the rare news story about a horrific killer (e.g. Brevik (sp?)), realising that these rarities, these psychopaths amongst us, are truly outside the scope of humans we engage with each day. Psychopathic individuals who are so profoundly mentally disturbed, so pathologically twisted, that their diagnosis is a moot point. In actuality, even the most astute diagnostician cannot accurately diagnosis any such monster, because they're horrific behaviour is so grossly out of bounds such that it no longer matters. For instance, I think most intelligent people will confidently agree that Hitler was a heinous individual. That's a given. What was actually wrong with Hitler? Was his mother mean to him? Was he mistreated as a child? From my standpoint, who cares? It no longer matters. What matters is the wake of horror such a monster can propagate. This is what psychopaths feed on. Our societal rules, our ethical values, are discarded in light of such monsters. Jack the Ripper lived in another time that was another culture, but he too was in that peculiar shady realm of hate.

It is important for us all to remember that autism/AS is merely a diagnostic label, and nothing more or less. There is greater diversity amongst Aspies than amongst the general populace. To try to disseminate who these psychopathic monsters actually are is like trying to find the root cause of, say, an earthquake of another disaster. Such preponderance is beyond any one of us. A philosopher will surmise that there is a killer within us all. Well, yes, even the most normal/healthy people (NTs and Aspies alike) can hate. Who hasn't hated, say, their boss? Their mean ex-bf or gf? But we are confined by our ethics and our morality - we are not heinous self-serving monsters.

There is a saying to never ask why. That is, when one has wronged us so horribly, it is natural to ask why?!? Then we can make ourselves literally sick trying to work out why, when there truly is no answer. Suffice to say, there is evil in this world. Just know, and have faith (in a non-religious way, if you know what I mean) that these monsters who are so callous are rare. So rare that most of will never encounter one vis-a-vis (hopefully) and we can only watch them on our tv news, within the safety of our 'normal' world. Aspies are good, we are safe, and we sometimes ask why too much.

Yeah in my experience people with autistic were very commonly abusive to those around them.

ProvokesThinking
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09 Dec 2012, 1:11 pm

Ganondox wrote:

ProvokesThinking wrote:

LabPet wrote:

OK, in all sincerity, I think you're considering those rare individuals who are truly on the fringe of society.

Don't we all sometimes watch the tv news, encountering the rare news story about a horrific killer (e.g. Brevik (sp?)), realising that these rarities, these psychopaths amongst us, are truly outside the scope of humans we engage with each day. Psychopathic individuals who are so profoundly mentally disturbed, so pathologically twisted, that their diagnosis is a moot point. In actuality, even the most astute diagnostician cannot accurately diagnosis any such monster, because they're horrific behaviour is so grossly out of bounds such that it no longer matters. For instance, I think most intelligent people will confidently agree that Hitler was a heinous individual. That's a given. What was actually wrong with Hitler? Was his mother mean to him? Was he mistreated as a child? From my standpoint, who cares? It no longer matters. What matters is the wake of horror such a monster can propagate. This is what psychopaths feed on. Our societal rules, our ethical values, are discarded in light of such monsters. Jack the Ripper lived in another time that was another culture, but he too was in that peculiar shady realm of hate.

It is important for us all to remember that autism/AS is merely a diagnostic label, and nothing more or less. There is greater diversity amongst Aspies than amongst the general populace. To try to disseminate who these psychopathic monsters actually are is like trying to find the root cause of, say, an earthquake of another disaster. Such preponderance is beyond any one of us. A philosopher will surmise that there is a killer within us all. Well, yes, even the most normal/healthy people (NTs and Aspies alike) can hate. Who hasn't hated, say, their boss? Their mean ex-bf or gf? But we are confined by our ethics and our morality - we are not heinous self-serving monsters.

There is a saying to never ask why. That is, when one has wronged us so horribly, it is natural to ask why?!? Then we can make ourselves literally sick trying to work out why, when there truly is no answer. Suffice to say, there is evil in this world. Just know, and have faith (in a non-religious way, if you know what I mean) that these monsters who are so callous are rare. So rare that most of will never encounter one vis-a-vis (hopefully) and we can only watch them on our tv news, within the safety of our 'normal' world. Aspies are good, we are safe, and we sometimes ask why too much.

But if we convince ourself that all aspies are good and only the other knowingly commits evil than we can feel better about ourselves!

That makes you lie to yourself about reality, in my opinion. By the way, seeing yourself as a group against another group is fascist in my opinion, that's why I disgust people who like to be part of a group. I prefer being autonomous, maybe due to my autism, but I like to be independant.

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09 Dec 2012, 2:27 pm

I'm unsure of his name, location or the exact details, but I have heard about one guy who dealt violently with things which caused him sensory overload, such as dogs. And small children.

For obvious reasons this case is rarely discussed in the Autism community, but a reference can be found in "Aspergers Syndrome" by Tony Attwood.

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09 Dec 2012, 8:08 pm

Surely the sociopathy/psychopathy only really comes into real acknowledged existence after the person has murdered someone. Up to that point they just have a highly unpleasant personality but no one locks them up as a potential killer do they - they have to perpetrate the act before being defined.

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09 Dec 2012, 8:41 pm

Stoek wrote:

Yeah in my experience people with autistic were very commonly abusive to those around them.

Where did you come up with such experience? Because that's not something I've seen anyone else state in research or common discussions.

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09 Dec 2012, 9:02 pm

Verdandi wrote:

I really can't agree with your assertion.

Just from your text [and some memories]:

-Disturbed since childhood = some form of developmental disorder or conduct disorder, though both often go together (PDs don't fit due to age)
-Mr Bryant craves attention of others = not congruent to an AS
-He desires relationships but fails to effectively communicate with others = that's describing Asperger's
-... unlike the patients with Asperger's who are blandly indifferent to others = nope
-... repetitive activities, unusual skills with all absorbing obsessive interests and problems with motor coordination = he had an obsession over firearms, and said article points this out later on (he even lectured on about it to the author, an AS symptom), effectively a contradiction; the same for motor milestones at an early age
-Frequently bullied at school = duh
-only one friend, who was 40 years older than him and female = known AS symptom
-had a single GF
-would travel to meet "normal people"; he'd inappropriately approach people and not know why they're turn his advances away; he listed liking plane travel because people couldn't move away from him = AS stuff there
Prostitutes and escorts = AS there, especially that he couldn't attain relations due to social difficulties, despite being good looking
Obsessive ruminations = possible AS, especially over social failures from the past

and it goes on and on. Entirely in your face if you know more than the average bear about Asperger's/ASDs

The only point that contradicts a diagnosis of AS is the delay in speech, but then you can say he had Autistic Disorder

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09 Dec 2012, 9:12 pm

Dillogic wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

I really can't agree with your assertion.

Just from your text [and some memories]:

-Disturbed since childhood = some form of developmental disorder or conduct disorder, though both often go together (PDs don't fit due to age)

Conduct disorder is a childhood precursor to a particular kind of personality disorder

-Mr Bryant craves attention of others = not congruent to an AS
-He desires relationships but fails to effectively communicate with others = that's describing Asperger's

Actually, this can also describe ADHD, as it often presents with social impairments.

-... unlike the patients with Asperger's who are blandly indifferent to others = nope
-... repetitive activities, unusual skills with all absorbing obsessive interests and problems with motor coordination = he had an obsession over firearms, and said article points this out later on (he even lectured on about it to the author, an AS symptom), effectively a contradiction; the same for motor milestones at an early age
-Frequently bullied at school = duh
-only one friend, who was 40 years older than him and female = known AS symptom
-had a single GF
-would travel to meet "normal people"; he'd inappropriately approach people and not know why they're turn his advances away; he listed liking plane travel because people couldn't move away from him = AS stuff there
Prostitutes and escorts = AS there, especially that he couldn't attain relations due to social difficulties, despite being good looking
Obsessive ruminations = possible AS, especially over social failures from the past

and it goes on and on. Entirely in your face if you know more than the average bear about Asperger's/ASDs

The only point that contradicts a diagnosis of AS is the delay in speech, but then you can say he had Autistic Disorder

Several of those points could point to ADHD and conduct disorder, however. Some of those you list are fairly big stretches to get to the "He has AS" conclusion, such as the "prostitutes and escorts."

Obsessive rumination is anxiety. ADHD can present with social difficulty. Conduct disorder was mentioned in the document as well, and certainly not inconsistent with everyone else.

This list of behaviors doesn't give an ironclad proof of being on the autistic spectrum. It points out that he had social difficulties, but there are more ways to have social difficulties than being autistic.

Since you obviously seem invested in the idea of an ironclad diagnosis here, I'm going to drop the subject.

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