Why...when it comes to social chit chat...

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To me, speaking = spent energy.

So that is one thing that has never made logical sense to me, why people commence in pointless chit chat. What is the point of a conversation that is not deep, meaningful, or thoughtful? Need directions? Conversate. Don't understand some research? Conversate. Quantum physics? Conversate.

Pointless chit chat about how much you got drunk last night? (happened to me today at a party)
How you and your spouse pee on each other in the shower. (yep, that was also a topic of discussion at the party)
I just don't get it.

Agreed completely. I was thinking the other day that a higher level of awareness of the way things really are (which I think AS confers) makes life so much harder. You see the stupidity, the inanity, the fact that most people don't seem to give a c**p about anything important, and you are faced with two choices: change who you are or accept being "on the outside." Then, you try the first, and that doesn't work either, since no one cares to meet you halfway.



Yes. Think I'll go watch IDIOCRACY again...to further remind myself of this fact.

I realize you said you didn't want this thread to be about you, but...well, that's where my thinking went. Sometimes, the world does s**k.

Hand-shakes are a remainder of an era when men used them to show they were not carrying a weapon - a friendly move. Chit-chat fulfills a similar role between NTs. Calling what we don't understand "pointless" is no less prejudice than we Aspies are subjected to.

Knowledge is power. If you're content calling them "stupid/shallow/selfish/etc" and search no further for what's really going on, you disempower yourself. Meaning you're much less apt to cope with reality and succeed in your goals.

I would love to get a glimpse of NTs having a private, in-depth conversation. Seriously, it would be extremely insightful. If they have the same kind of deep conversations as I have with my like-minded friends, then I wonder why so many public conversations are the "water-cooler" type. Because I'm happy to talk deep with acquaintances...they just don't seem equally inclined, generally.

I'm beginning to think I have the order of events involved in building a close relationship with someone (through conversation) the wrong way around. While I start to feel close to someone once the conversation gets interesting and meaningful, I think most people have interesting and meaningful conversations once they start to feel close to someone. Which is why someone like me would rarely get to be involved in deep NT conversations.

Sorry, I'm not sure how that relates to the original topic, but I thought I'd add it in.

It's not fair, and it is a double standard. I don't bother trying with most people.

Yes bumble. If you keep doing the things you do, and believing the things you believe, you will get what you've always got and change will never happen for you.

You don't have to change your ways either, but you could be more accepting of other people's differences too.

There is a saying I am sure you are aware of "practice what you preach". Wise words we could all remind ourselves of from time to time.

People with Asperger's are logical where they can be, and try to find practical solutions to difficulties. Coming onto an Aspie forum and trying to get people with Asperger's to offer advice for problems resulting from illogical behaviours without being open-minded to practical solutions is always going to be fraught with frustration all round.

Last edited by whirlingmind on 01 Apr 2013, 12:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

It is never wise to believe you have learned all there is to learn, life is a lesson every day (whether we like what we are learning or not). Likewise, we have never tried everything there is to try. There is always something new. Anyone with a closed mind who thinks otherwise will never find resolution. Sometimes you have to look inside.

Sometimes, that new thing, is not a therapy, a pill, behaving this way or that way. Sometimes it is actually stepping back, facing our demons, looking in the mirror and questioning ourselves honestly. Asking questions such as "Am I as accepting of others as I expect them to be of me?" and "Do I have reasonable expectations of others?" and "Why is it that everything I have tried has not worked to date?" and "Is there anything about myself that I need to accept and work with?" and "Am I being truly, I mean really, honest with myself?" and "Why is it, that I keep getting the same reaction from people, what can I do to analyse exactly what that might be?" and "What impression do I give off to people?"

Sometimes, it's not until we can objectively step back and look at ourselves, warts and all, and see ourselves as others might see us, that we can start the journey to knowing ourselves and seeking the answers we need.

As someone who states that they wanted to spend their lives looking after others, one has to be honest first with themselves and know what their weaknesses are as well as their talents, before they can know what they have to give to others and whether it is what other people need or want.

And that's the end of my therapy session for today.

Us Aspies don't get the logic behind small talk chit chat - it's just one of our traits.

And most people do, because they're NT, and know intuitively what's "typically," acceptable to discuss.

The only people to truly discuss a special interest with are other Aspies with a mutual special interest. When you meet an Aspie like this, it's conversation heaven. I have a very close friend like this & it's awesome.

But talk to another Aspie about their special interest for very long? No thanks. It doesn't interest me. I'll do it for a bit to indulge their desire to talk about it, but it won't hold my attention for very long and I know it. I can fake interest long enough to be polite, just as I can in an NT's interest, but beyond that.. forget it, you've lost me.

Same goes with my friend and I, too. If I bring up a current obsession/passion/special interest that doesn't interest him, he's very clearly not interested in talking about it or hearing me talk about it. I appreciate it when he pointed these things out to me, as then I learned better and better not to bother bringing up special interest topics that bored him, as his friendship means a lot more to me than talking about a special interest. So, I keep topics to ones we're both interested in and discussions are great!

NT's get even more easily annoyed by Aspies' one track mind when it comes to discussing a special interest, especially if they're not only not interested in the topic, but are bored by it. They find it strange that we cannot pick up on the social cues in their body language and facial expressions that indicate they're not interested in hearing our encyclopaedic knowledge monologue about something that bores them to tears. They don't "get," AS logic or behaviours. They're the majority. We have to learn to adapt and not dominate conversations with things like this in order for us to get along well enough with others to make it in this world.

One source of conversation style training I'd recommend looking into is anything on sales training. You'll find that it's all about asking the right questions, and listening to the other person speak vs. you speaking and conveying knowledge they're not interested in. Even if the other person does most of the talking, if you ask the right questions and listen to them, they'll enjoy the conversation. Sure, especially in sales, you're manipulating the conversation and creating a scenario for them to dominate the airspace with their voice delivering answers to your open ended questions.. but that's the way it's done, textbook anyways, and that's about the only way we AS brained types can manage to do things like this with any level of success besides lots and lots of practice.

From what I've observed, NTs are more cautious than me. They have a whole phase at the beginning that I never even thought of (because it gives nothing to ME). Because they act so much upon intuition, the meaningless relating gives them many elements to feel the vibes, whether this person is safe enough to move one step further. I, because I lack the right-hemisphere well-functioning intuition, get NOTHING from empty talking, so I need to skip fast to the meaningful conversation stage, THAT's where I can form an impression on the person.

In a similar vain, all those sports activities, business travel, business lunches, meetings, they hold to break the ice and create more cooperation - they have no effect on me, but I see how much they work with NTs. So I let them read me with their intuition (during all those empty chit-chat sessions), even if I can't read them with mine, same as I'd let a blind person know me with their hand on my face - without judgment. Otherwise, it'd be like a blind person saying "Seeing people are so illogical, they take photos of each other, it's so useless, you can't see anything anyway."

One thing I've found, is that NTs are very quick to start delving beyond the inane chit-chat. I don't like people questioning me about myself, and they frequently start probing and I tend to give very brief answers (yes and no where possible!) hoping they will shut up and change the subject.

Maybe they do it because I am so useless at the chit-chat so they go to the next level to get round that, I don't know.

I would never start asking people about themselves, OK that's probably my low empathy there, but I especially wouldn't do it when I don't know them. NTs are nosy and gossipy.

Or perhaps they do it because they think I'm being enigmatic by not being good at chit-chat and that makes them insecure so they try to work me out by questioning me.

I don't feel the need to know peoples' business in that way. If someone was excessively quiet I might feel uncomfortable and find a way to remove myself, otherwise I would be perfectly OK with an exchange of information as and when needed. I do believe there is such a thing as a comfortable silence and an uncomfortable silence. Some people give off negative vibes.

This happens to me too, a lot. I think it's because the vibes their intuition get about me all say "ERROR - ERROR" - they can't pidgeon-hole me easily.

1. This is what I am simply trying to understand myself. What is the inherent reasoning that it is wrong to question and challenge the majority's tenets and beliefs? Why is it discouraged today to question and challenge the tenets and beliefs of the majority?

2. What is the essence of improvement? What should one improve exactly?

3. Was Socrates wrong to question the tenets of his day? If yes, then why? If no, then what is the difference between then and today?

4. What is the difference between the civil rights movement and now? Didn't those during the civil rights movements challenge what they perceived as wrong with society? Were they wrong for challenging the standards of this time period? If yes then why? If no, what is the difference between then and today?

5. Can you tell me what the essence of what reality truthfully is? Who or what is the ultimate definer of what reality truthfully is?

This is to the OP. I am using my questions to get a lesson across to you. I am going to answer some of my own questions that I have asked. This is all philosophical wordplay and this is how I learn. The answer to some of my questions is human nature. One is not going to convince anyone who does not want to be convinced no matter what reasoning they use.

No matter how crazy our society may seem and no matter how fallacious it is most people including other aspies and auties accept it as is and attempt to work within its framework, tenets and beliefs. Socrates was willing to give his life for the pursuit of truth for truth's sake. For the Civil Right's movement, a good amount of people were on board with the change and prevailing wind.

Most people including a lot of auties and aspies are not. I do believe our society is sick and maladjusted. We are a business oriented culture that prizes money and possessions above all else. I may be wrong but I believe I am correct based upon my experiences and based upon what people say in various forums. Whether we're correct or not is irrelevant.

We're not changing their minds no matter what reasoning we use. I believe America is sinking like the titanic and has been sinking for a long time. My opinion is to do what moondust and whirlingmind says. You need to do what is good for you because it is a waste of time to attempt to reason with those who will not listen to reason. One way may be to change societies that you are able to. Another possibility is to accept your hermit life style and find some meaning in it. I believe Henry David Thoreau did.

For me, I've pretty much rejected the workplace and my wife and I are attempting to do our own non-profit.

I don't believe it is NTs that is the issue but American style beliefs. There are a number of NTs who are stating the same thing.

Keep in mind I may be wrong about everything I say so please keep an open mind and be prepared to be wrong.

I do find some of it fascinating to me. I do not agree with you that beliefs and tenets especially if they're the majority should remain unchallenged. I believe in the seeking of truth for truth's sake like Socrates. On the other hand, if majority doesn't want to hear then what is the point. I would gravitate to others who do. There does come a point in time that one does have to grit his teeth and be pragmatic.

By the way, I do love music and cats as well.

You know I didn't know that this is where handshakes came from. This is fascinating to me. I do believe America is sinking. Here is the thing. If any of my beliefs are wrong I would love for others to show me where I am wrong.

Moondust is entirely correct about the function of social chit-chat. Since it serves an important function to they (us, since I am one) it will not disappear anymore than the visual arts will disappear for sighted people (an excellent analogy that Moondust made). NTs who are attempting to have a conversation with a person they know to have AS can suppress this in the same way that sighted people can suppress the urge to use visual descriptors when talking to a blind person or say "look at this and I will show you how it works". Two things have to be in place in order for that to happen:

1)The NTs need to know that social chit-chat is counter-productive in a conversation with an AS person. While this may seem obvious on WP, it is actually one of the features of AS that is least known to the general public, even to those who have some familiarity with the subject. Not understanding social rules gets the most press and is what the general public is most likely to know if they know anything at all. Sensory sensitivities and meltdowns get the second most press and will be the next most likely thing for the general public to know. Since not understanding social rules is the feature NTs are most likely to know, AS dislike for small talk will probably get miscategorized by the NT as not knowing how to do it. Inherent dislike of social chit chat (rather than simply disliking it because of not being able to do it well) is something it took me awhile on WP to realize and is something NTs are unlikely to realize unless they are married to, best friends with, or otherwise closely related to an AS person or at a PhD level of researching AS. It will take considerable education until this feature is well known. And there will be a lag period when inherent dislike will be taken as dislike for a skill not yet acquired and therefore difficult.

2)And now the truly hard part which Moondust has also talked about: the NT person has to be motivated to adjust their conversation style when talking to an AS person. They (we) are motivated only to the extent that a conversation with an AS person is necessary or desirable. If (when?) it becomes widely known that AS people dislike social chit-chat, most NT people will simply not talk to AS people unless absolutely necessary because the need that social chit chat fills (as correctly described by Moondust) will be unfilled. To a great extent this is already happening even in the absence of that knowledge. As long as the number of people who need social chit chat (which includes BAPs) greatly outnumbers the people who need to not have social chit chat, this will continue.

Framing this as a social justice issue whereby AS people have just as much right as NTs to have their needs filled is one way to go about this. But the solution will be social isolation for anyone who doesn't present as somebody that NTs really need to talk to. As long as NTs greatly outnumber AS people, the logical way for an NT to fill an AS person's need for no social chit chat is to not talk to them unless there is a requirement for information exchange. If AS people greatly outnumbered NT people, NTs would abide listening to boring monologues on special interests just to have their need for social contact met. But as it is now, any NT can have their need for social contact met by the 99% of people who are also NT and share the need for social chit chat. The AS person gets shut out of purely social conversation because of the radical mismatch. You can (eventually) change society enough that it is common knowledge that AS people dislike social chit chat and should not be engaged in it. Then NTs will know not to try and the ones adhereing to this new PC tenet will do their utmost to not engage an AS person in social chit chat. However, meaningful conversations will not rush in to fill the vacuum unless there is a shared interest or another compelling reason to have a meaningful conversation. NTs will just practice conversational avoidance of AS people as currently already happens a lot.

Options:

1)have kids with other AS people in the hopes of increasing the AS population

2)seek out other AS people in real life and make the sort of conversational compromise that goldfish earlier describes

3)become a lecturer/academic/field expert so that others will want to hear all you have to say on the topic

4)become close friends/partner with an NT (or NTs) that are somewhat quirky- they will still initially need the social chit chat (for reasons explained by Moondust) but will ultimately be able to dispense with it to make a specific accomodation for you because they want to be with you (does it actually work that way? Only AS people who have done this will know). This is what I was talking about with initial points 1) and 2). Friendship/partnership provide the motivation to make this accomodation. It could and should also happen in professional situations such as with doctors, educators, therapists familiar with this need for no social chit chat. Does it happen this way?

5)other things I haven't thought of

Not An Option:
NT society will change so that nobody will engage in anything but a meaningful conversation. That won't happen.

At what point does social chit-chat become not social chit-chat though? If an atomic bomb was dropped somewhere and it came up in conversation as chit-chat, would talking about the effects of radiation poisoning on people make it not social chit-chat?

Can you give me an example of how a social chit-chat type conversation about an atomic bomb being dropped would go?