Are you aware of your lacking Theory of Mind?

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I understand people, my shrink says I have high empathy but I also can't pickup the conversation cues. I always say the wrong thing at the wrong time or change the subject inappropriately to my own topic Its like I'm half beat behind the conversation.

In a group it feels like hard work to watch 3-4 people at the same time and when I talk its either at the table or just to one person. Is this more of an ADD or anxiety thing? I do have slight borderline AQ scores.

What I think, is that you can be theoretically aware what you should be doing in everyday life...theoretically. But you aren't constantly intuitively aware of it if you lack a theory of mind. That's the main difference. You know you should eat some meals each day, but if you have to remind yourself about this constantly you're more likely to forget to do it than those with a common ToM.

Making a routine ("scripting your life") can to some extend help solve this problem, but not if a new routine is required, for instance if you have to do something you don't usually have to do.

So the executive dysfunction is not due to not knowing what to do - I believe it's due to not being intuitively aware of this all the time. It requires conscious work for an autistic to know what to do (i.e. make a "big picture" from the details) - you don't have an autopilot like someone with a common Theory of Mind.

This is surely a personal theory, not trying to say otherwise! I was more wondering whether you are conscously aware of your (lack of) ToM.



Btw. does any of you use "mental scripts"?

Last edited by qawer on 30 May 2013, 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

Yes, I believe so too. Asperger confusion is due to a lacking ToM. So many details, not knowing what to make out of them.

This.

I'm aware intellectually that other people have their own thoughts, feelings, etc. but I'm unable to discern them non-verbally and have to depend upon what the person actually says. If they lie or exaggerate I really don't pick up on it unless it's ridiculously overplayed. So, I will believe what someone says until they actually do something contrary to what they said. And then I sit there pondering why they said one thing but did another because it's not logical.

When I'm communicating I'm too focused on my own train of thought (and not losing it) that I'm definitely not thinking about what whoever I'm talking to is thinking and only occasionally a thought will shoot through my head to consider if what I'm saying may be offensive to them in some way but by then it's usually too late. I'll often get suspected of not telling the truth only because my body language doesn't match my words or I do something that doesn't make sense to them so I must be up to something.

I don't seem to be very perceptive to my own state of being. I'm happy unless there's an actual reason I shouldn't be. I physically feel good unless something actually hurts. People claim to feel better when they eat healthy foods, take vitamins, etc. but the only difference I ever felt was a lighter wallet. I'm not sure I experience intoxication like other people because I don't find it pleasant. On the couple of times I tried pot I didn't get high, I didn't feel anything. I grew up going to church and people saying they hear God or saying the Bible has mystical properties. I never experienced anything like that. Apparently, I live on the macro scale and all that stuff is just too subtle for me to perceive.

My "executive function" as it's being defined here, isn't good. I have a hard time prioritizing. I have a hard time remembering what I need to do. I have no routine. I wish I could figure out how to get into one. I've gotten better at completing what I've started but that's been a major issue most my life also.

Hmm i think I am pretty aware that others have beliefs, desires and intentions that are different from my own...I really don't get the whole lack of theory of mind thing. Do mental health professionals seriously think we aren't aware other people have different thoughts and feelings and such? I would say I have executive dysfunction issues, like its hard to know where to start with anything and initiate certain things.

Sadly, from reading descriptions on WP of doctor visits, it appears that at least some mental health "professionals" do believe that Aspies arn't aware that other people have different thoughts and feelings.

Now you're confusing theory of mind and executive function again. Is it possible that you think they are related because you think they are the same? You just don't know the difference between the two?

Forgetting to eat, pay bills, or take care of yourself and not having an autopilot is executive dysfunction. It has nothing to do with theory of mind. Making a routine does not help with theory of mind at all. It helps compensate for poor executive function but it has nothing to do with theory of mind. Nothing you just said has anything to do with theory of mind.

I don't understand how I could not know that people have other thoughts and feelings than me. I've had it pointed out to me for most of my life how weird and different I am than everyone else so there is no way I couldn't be aware of it. I may not know what those thoughts and feelings are and it may not even occur to me that others have them but I have the knowledge that they do.

I have a theory of mind. It is primarily intellectual, but it actually works better than NTs' emotional-mirror theory of mind. I remember using it as early as age two. So, in other words, I am the opposite of what you would expect from an autistic person; rather than being unable to understand other peoples' viewpoints, I calculate them just like I would a logic problem. I do not know if this is related to my strongly altruistic nature, my need to fix things, but I think it probably is. I have spent my whole life practicing how to understand people who are different from myself and by now I am pretty good at it.

Socially, I am aloof and do not naturally initiate contact unless someone is right in front of me. I have no social anxiety and will chatter away happily about a topic of interest to anyone nearby, whether it's the janitor or the college president. I do not treat people differently based on friendship level or social status.

Most autistic people have a theory of mind, though most seem to be somewhat delayed in learning it.

In my opinion, sensory and cognitive differences are probably at the root of autism, especially executive dysfunction. Executive dysfunction makes it very difficult to handle more than one thing at once (by switching back and forth rapidly as NTs do), or to ignore irrelevant things (by getting used to sensations or dropping facts that are not useful to the task). As a result, people with autism have sensory problems, and cognitive problems as well as strengths which involve a sort of laser-pointer focus. Being unable to handle many sensations at once leads to overload. Being unable to do the simultaneous processing needed for language and theory of mind lead to problems with social interaction. Intense focus with difficulty switching leads to special interests, the need for routine, and the focus on details rather than the big picture. However, autism is a diverse diagnosis, and there are most likely people for whom executive dysfunction is not so central. Certainly executive dysfunction (such as that found in ADHD or certain brain injuries) is not the sole explanation--it seems to be more that the brain develops differently. Autistic-style development may be only one way that the brain deals with the problem.

I think this is true for me as well. It's difficult to distinguish if I'm using my intellect or innate "theory of mind" though. I have a more intuitive as opposed to logical intellectual style though so I often reach conclusions without being fully aware of the logical steps I made to reach them. This means I don't know where innate "theory of mind" ends and intellectual processing begins. I think I can get a better understanding using my intellect anyways though as I'm more consciously aware of things and can analyze them more carefully compared to NTs who tend to interact on automatic pilot. I think it simply slows down my processing speed and makes it harder to interact spontaneously. I find myself thinking before I act.

I believe Executive Dysfunction is due to a lack of Theory of Mind, because you aren't constantly intuitively aware of your own mind in the same way you are not automatically aware of other peoples minds. Without a Theory of Mind you don't relate the world enough to your own mind, i.e. to your own wants, desires, opinions, needs etc. So I believe Executive Dysfunction is a consequence of a lacking ToM. But outwardly executive dysfunction appears to be completely unrelated to ToM. But it's only outwardly - the root cause is the same (a lacking ToM) which similarly applies to Weak Central Coherence.

So ToM, ED and WCC are very related conditions, imo. This also means they would all vanish at once if the root cause disappears. Developing an "artificial" ToM helps mitigating all three issues at once.

So you're saying that all of my assessments are wrong and I don't have executive dysfunction because if I had executive dysfunction I would also have problems with theory of mind? That's pretty arrogant to say that you know better than several different medical professionals, my immediate family's observations, and my own experiences. They obviously aren't caused by the same thing otherwise I would have difficulty with theory of mind. Either that or I wouldn't have executive dysfunction. It would be impossible to have one and not the other if the two symptoms were as strongly related as you are saying. Developing an "artificial" ToM doesn't mitigate all three issues.

Do you take into account the level of experience of other people? What about their current emotional states? If you were playing against a 14 year old in a game of chess and your opponent has never played chess before would you see the best move your opponent can make and expect him to make it or would you expect the best move he is likely to notice? What if you are among two people including yourself and you really want the last piece of cake? Would you automatically offer it to the other person thinking you're being nice? The other person might be concerned about his weight or he might not like the caramel that happens to be in the cake.

...

Last edited by qawer on 30 May 2013, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This theory of mind crap is kind of nonsense. I know when my dog wants to go out cause she cries, when my mom wants to talk she tells me to my face. What aspies lack in "theory of mind" is made up in intelligence cubed of whatever the hell we want to put our minds to. Aspies are smart, even if their IQ isn't even high, so what does this theory of mind rubbish have to stop us anyways? Nothing, just tell us, aspies go to college and have friends there, what is theory of mind to make us trip, and stumble? Theory of mind? No, I don't lack it, I just don't use it as much and it gets weak. I'm sure most of you here know when things need to be done right? So how do aspies lack theory of mind? When I blurt out info, I honestly do know that people won't want to listen, I just say it anyways because it is cool! "Hey, hey, hey", "apple shut up!" You know what I'm saying? "But I was going to tell you they just hot a guy's finger out of a shotgun!" "Oh s**t that is sooo cool!" (typical weird gross thing that guys find cool for an odd reason and like one girl, sometimes, at college) "Oh so now you want to see it hmmmm?" Sheesh!

I seem to be an anomaly in the ASD world as I have pretty good Theory of Mind. I can easily grasp/sense others feelings though facial expressions, body language and the words that they say, as well as my past experiences and what I've learned about them. However, learning this did not come naturally to me.

Once I knew that noticing these things was important (towards the end of high school when I started learning more about ASD) I forced myself to pay more attention to them, specifically when interacting with my peers and other neurotypicals. The problem initially was that social situations in general went WAY too fast for me, and this explained why, for most of my teen years, my main group of friends had intellectual disabilities: I felt we were at the same social level and I thus felt more comfortable around them. Fortunately, I had a few peers at my school who really seemed to accept and understand my quirks. Once they saw that I was finally interested in hanging out with them at lunch and after school, I tagged along and focused on "reading" the social situations around me when I was with them, and through exposure and practice, my social processing speed got faster.

After graduation, I continued to develop numerous other friendships , and now have a small circle of friends who I mostly hang out with one on one. Sometimes, my friendships have screwed up due to many things that I wasn't aware of, but once I learn what went wrong, my TOM awareness improves. It is still improving as I learn about new emotional nuances and social expectations all the time, particularly over the last little while as I am now focused on teaching these things to others through my job. I think it's impossible for anyone to have a perfect theory of ind, but it's possible to have improved awareness of others perspectives, feelings and views, no matter where you are on the spectrum, or even if you have limited TOM.

Last edited by anneurysm on 30 May 2013, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.