NT's don't like to hear the truth?

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I agree that wanting to wear company logos, and give those companies free advertising, is vacuous. Even when I was a kid and was desperate to try to fit in, I could never resign myself to wearing such things. As far as sports go, I'm probably the only man in Texas who has never watched a football game, or any other sporting event, from start to finish. I have no patience for it.

Despite some pretty intense sports rivalries, such as between Texas A&M and the University of Texas, or European soccer hooligans, this form of identity is relatively innocuous, at least when compared with religious and ethnic conflicts. What's at stake in identifying with brands of sports teams is, as you said, vacuous and meaningless. With religion and ethny there is much more substance, and hence much more reason for conflict.

Ummm...no? If you're telling a lie to comfort someone, you're not being honest.

There is almost always a kernel of truth that is still flattering or at least is not going to crush someone's feelings. For instance, and this is only half joking:

"Do I look fat in these jeans?"

"Compared to your other ones those are very slimming."

"Do you like my haircut?"

"The bangs look nice on you."

That's the type of partial reality NTs sometimes favor. And by the way they should not put anyone on the spot to begin with...in my opinion. Savvier people learn not to do that. Lol. AS or NT there is always someone who will say:

"Do I look fat in these jeans?"

"I didn't know Orca was a biped."

"Do you like my haircut?"

"How much is a Flowbee, anyway?"

Ann2011 – I thought this as well. Though, I am in the process of re-evaluating my perspective. Why?

Well, I recently read “A Field Guide to Earthlings” and subsequently received some very cogent advice from Janissy (an NT with exceptional wisdom).

I believe that the behavior you describe is simply one of many behavioral patterns of NTs (in this case, the way in which NTs establish identity within a group). Adorning oneself with logos, brands or associating oneself with a certain actor is yet one of the 62 patterns outlined in the book (which I now pretty much consider a must read for any Aspie).

While we can think that some NT behavioral patterns are shallow/empty, doing so ultimately limits our capacity to effectively relate with NTs.

Please note, I may change my mind on this, as I learn/understand more. But, as of today, I am simply trying to act as a reasonable “guest” on the NT’s planet (after all, we are the minority).

So doing this stuff actually has some value to NTs. How absurd to identify with someone based on their fan association with a sport. That provides absolutely no relevant information as to what kind of person they are.

It’s funny. I have been a fan of the local baseball team since I was kid. When I was young, I was obsessed with studying baseball statistics (i.e. box scores) and baseball history (reading baseball history books). I knew all of the players and tracked their statistics. I collected baseball cards. It was my special interest.

While I have moved on, I remain a fan of the local team. Occasionally, I wear a T-shirt with the local team’s logo on it. I like wearing T-shirts and most have some writing on it. So, it may as well be something I enjoy. In any event, when I wear it, I often forget that I am wearing it. And, people come up to me and want to talk about the team. It’s like they think we have a natural affinity because we are both fans of the team. I agree it’s absurd. But it seems to be common NT behavior.

According “A Field Guide to Earthlings”:



Probably, a lot of this is not new information. But it can be "striking" to Aspies, who prize their individuality.

So this means that being a part of the group is an end in itself? Group membership has been something I've avoided ... mostly because I end up having to participate in an exchange that I perceive largely as a charade.

I suppose I can understand wanting to wear something that has meaning to you . . . I'm one to talk - I have to wear a uniform for my job. lol But the idea that someone may start talking to me because they recognize some perceived affiliation frightens me.

So, I am in no way an expert on NT behavior. I am just trying to understand it myself (after spending 50 years being essentially clueless - LOL).

Hopefully, an NT will respond to your question.

BTW - I avoided most group membership as well (for similar reasons). Unless there is a specific purpose (e.g. a professional group for learning new work skills).

Yes, for NTs being a part of the group is an end in itself. I realize this is strange and inexplicable for AS people. When an NT person says they value their individuality, they mean they value having the freedom to choose which group to affiliate with rather than being stuck with what they were born into, and also value a group that has loose codes that align with what they want to do anyway.

The family is the primary group. Children are born into it and identify with it as such. Parents sometimes scold a child with "that's not how we do things in this family". I am guessing this scold has never worked on an AS child nor is it something an AS parent is likely to say (is it? I could be wrong).

The teenage years are when NT kids typically start the mental move away from their parents by choosing a non-family group. Everybody remembers these groups from highschool. Every highschool has them. Each group has its' own clothes, music and often its' own slang. I was with science nerds, some of whom are BAP but still NT enough to create and enforce group identity signifiers. One of our unspoken rules was that we didn't listen to dance music. I didn't listen to any dance music until college and the first few times it felt odd, like I was breaking a rule even though I was no longer in this highschool group.

Adult NTs may cycle through many groups in a lifetime. But not to be in any group would feel weird, sad and cut off. It is definitely an end in itself. Interests affect the choice of group but engaging in those interests isn't the primary reason for joining. It is so pervasive it barely feels conscious (except for teens, who are getting their first taste of choosing a group rather than accepting what they were born into). And so when you wear a sports shirt, membership in the group of fans of that team is assumed and conversations start up with that assumption.

That's very interesting . . . It explains all the pointless babble amongst people. I guess the point is the babble itself. I wish I could derive some value from this, I do feel isolated a lot. But I view close groups as dangerous - the price of membership is usually too high for me.

Thanks Janissy for the NT perspective.

I have used a similar refrain before ("that's not how we do things in this family") with my teenage kids, mostly when they are using really poor manners at the dinner table. Something like, "It is unacceptable to do that in our family".

Having good manners was pounded into me as a child -- so I try to impress these same "values" onto my kids. Apparently, this is something that Temple Grandin also stresses.

Interestingly, it does not work well at home. But, apparently, my daughters have good manners when with others. Go figure.

I'm like this as well sometimes. The big difference is that I never ask questions if I know I wouldn't be able to handle a possible response.
And I don't go around claiming I never lie and that I always want to hear the truth.

This is fascinating! I remember that grouping business in high school--they even had their own dialects--but I thought this was a sort experimental phase that people grew out of once they were working and had accumulated enough life experience to have a developed self independent of group affiliation. I am really amazed to hear that it isn't so. I thought only fanatics and extremists with underdeveloped identities did this sort of thing as adults (the sort of people who become terrorists) This changes my perspective on many things. Thanks, Janissy, for sharing this understanding and explaining it so clearly.

I can recall having many very intimate conversations with individuals in high school who appreciated my attentive listening, but could not actually be friends with me because I was never part of their groups. I had no idea these associations were so important in general.

I was thinking the same thing as you. I don't see what is honest about telling a reassuring lie.

Heh. NTs just call it "being tactful." That is the "kernel of truth" example I gave earlier. It isn't always lying - it's just leaving some stuff out when the stuff left out isn't going to hurt anybody not to know, anyway. (But if that same stuff left out, would only hurt someone if said.) What would be the real purpose in hurting someone's feelings? They can't instantly lose weight if told they are fat (maybe they have health issues and can't lose it at all.) They can't instantly fix a bad haircut. Usually if not always, people can see what they look like anyway (unless they are dysmorphic.) I think focusing on the positive kernel in an answer can be both truthful and tactful. And it also might just be how the NT feels (I am not saying all tactful answers are aware of other possible but negative answers the person could make to a pointed question. Sometimes, that's just what the NT is seeing anyway.)

I never thought about it.

I'm not much of a joiner. But, as I see it, people like things like sports regalia because it's a chance to talk to someone. From there, you might meet a friend. You do know some information about that person, unless they lost all their clothing in a fire and their shirt was donated and they had no other choice that day.

A sports shirt can say something about where the person lives, the fact they like going to crowded stadiums to see sports, it tells you they are probably extroverted since introverts generally are more indoors people. (At the very least they enjoy watching sports on Tv, and might have viewing parties.) A sports shirt says they value athleticism and are entertained by it. A sports shirt worn in an arena says they want people to know who they like. A sports shirt worn in an arena means the person anticipates having fun by cheering for that team. It probably means they are healthy enough to do all of the above (if worn in an arena) as an unhealthy person probably cannot go to an arena, keep standing and sitting and cheering, wait in line for the bathroom or ingest junk food which is all those places usually sell. (I'm not counting the private viewing boxes.)

That's just one example.

A T shirt with Shakespeare on it would tell me that person likes to read, isn't afraid of the classics, is probably fairly intelligent, probably an introvert, or could be into the acting side of it instead. Someone interested in literature or plays (theater) might want to talk to that person, or at least, feel more comfortable around them maybe.

So in effect it is advertising.

BTW the closest I got to such things was I had some sweatshirts I wore in college that had the college name on it, and some sweatshirts that had a caricature of writers and their name on it. One shirt had Kerouac, one had Joyce, etc. Someone who remarked that they knew who those were would probably seem more interesting to me than someone wearing a sports shirt. It wasn't done consciously though. Also I liked the 'author shirts' and it made me feel special to wear them, although admitting that makes me blush. But since I only found them for sale at random I knew it wasn't something everyone would have. (So to me that made me feel special or 'unique' - I wouldn't have if it was sold in a mall. Then I might see a lot of clones walking around in the same shirt. Some people love that, though.) I suppose I was trying to show off a bit that I made a creative clothing choice.

I was never into wearing product names or label names visibly, I never wanted to fit in to that extent. But 'finding like minded people' is something NT think about a lot I guess.