The Hygiene Hypothesis and Autism

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Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 7:27 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Janissy wrote:

0223 wrote:

I have had high inflammation for a couple of decades. Nobody could decide what or why but I had a high ESR and CRP and homosysteine, then I had my son, then I developed inflammatory arthritis.

t.

I have a similar story: asymptomatic inflammation noted by doctors>>>>>>>child with autism>>>>>>>>rheumatoid arthritis

I did notice that thelibrarian said modified anti-inflammatory diet with a focus on probiotics and with peppermint oil. That's a fair bit more specific than "improved diet".

I think the inflammation link is promising. Thelibrarian's n=1 experiment is worthwhile anecdotal evidence. I don't have my daughter on a special diet per se but have swapped out processed foods for the whole foods they are designed to imitate e,g butter rather than margarine, real cheese for Kraft cheese-like stuff etc,

Janissy, I appreciate it. Maybe I shouldn't have come down so hard on Sonofghandi, but I've simply had it with the medical profession. When my current doctor retired, he put me in touch with another doctor in the area, who said he couldn't take me, but did offer me a referral--to a dermatologist! Which is the last thing I need. Medical professionals just don't listen--or think.

Anyway, all of the improvements I've made are a direct result of what I've learned here at WP. I read, I consider, I experiment, and keep that which works for me. Consequently, I am sufficiently grateful that I hope to repay the favor, as this has been my only source for help. So, when the imperious, officious medical professionals come here and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about--well--I lose my cool in hurry.

On the surface, it sounds reasonable to trust your doctor.

But most of them will tell you that the only approved "treatment" for autism--an inflammatory disease -- is *cough* talk therapy. Which is another way of saying they don't know more about the etiology or treatment of autism than you do. So you and your doctor are, at best, no more than equals when it comes to understanding or treating autism.

They may have 12 years of medical training, but it is completely irrelevant to the question at hand which is (1) what the f**k is wrong? And (2) what do I do about it?

By the way, therapy for autistic people is basically a travesty and a fraud. All four of the therapists I saw should be sued for malpractice.

Tyrion, my "diagnosis" for Asperger Syndrome consisted of me working up the courage to ask the psychiatrist I was seeing how she would diagnose me. Due to my auditory processing problems, I didn't make make out what she said clearly; I thought it was just another jive diagnosis, as I had received so many times in the past (though most often, doctors didn't offer any diagnosis at all), and she was so irritated that I didn't ask her to repeat herself. She treated me as if I had asked a really stupid question. A psychiatrist of all people should've realized this was something I should know, and learn how to deal with. That was the last time I saw her.

But I agree. The best therapy for AS is to be found right here. It seems to me the difference is that I paid doctors a lot of money and got no answers whereas here I get lots of answers and it costs me nothing.

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 08 Jul 2013, 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 7:40 pm

Rascal77s wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Fnord, I don't have to assume that my autism is an inflammatory condition; I know mine is. As I have learned to keep my chronic inflammation problems under control better, my autism has also become much more manageable. I'm hardly sure of the details, but there is absolutely a strong correlation in my case.

I am not saying that you are wrong, but it also possible that the actions you are taking are also alleviating your autism symptoms without the two being connected. It is almost like saying, "I lost weight, my knees don't hurt as much. I find it easier to breathe as well. I guess when my knees stopped hurting it helped out my lungs." There are many benefits to a better diet, but that doesn't mean that the benefits cause one another.

Gosh, I control my inflammation and my autism gets better; my inflammation flares up and so does my autism. Maybe I'm being fooled by the obvious and parsimonious. Maybe I'm also being too pragmatic when I only concern myself with solutions that work.

By the way, are you aware of an epistemological concept known as Occam's Razor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Are you 100% sure its autism you have, it could be inflimation causes simular symptoms but not the entire disorder......or perhaps you mistake some inflammation symptoms for autism symptoms when they aren't and have both conditions. Or perhaps inflammation acting up makes autism symptoms more apparent...I know for instance too much heat makes my sensory issues worse doesn't mean my autism is a heat intolerance condition.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGSXgztLR10[/youtube][/quote

Yes, I am. In my last message I only gave part of the story of my diagnosis: I had all but forgotten what the doctor said when some months later I was reading and came upon the term Aperger Syndrome. It immediately clicked that this was what the psychiatrist had said. So, I went to Wikipedia to look it up. Since that article could've been written about me, it was one of the greatest moments of my life. I had long since given up any hope of ever finding out what was going on with me; I thought I was uniquely weird and deficient--a freak of nature. Not only do I have AS, I have it pretty severely, having scored 43/50 on the AQ.

FWIW, I also researched some of the other personality disorders. While I had many symptoms from some of them, AS is by far the best fit.

Actually, I have AS and severe allergies. I tried for years to do something about the allergies, as when they got bad, so did my AS. What surprised me was that I had always had what I thought was a cast iron gut. Well, in the last few years my stomach has been giving me more problems. Much to my surprise, when I began treating those issues, my AS became more manageable, though it has hardly disappeared. This primarily means I can deal with people better, and I'm far less prone to melting down.

Actually, my library carries a science publication called "Science News", which is short abstracts for the layman describing some of the latest scientific findings. Well, several weeks ago they had a blurb on an experiment wherein scientists took the bacteria out of mice guts in utero, and those mice were born with autistic symptoms. So, what I describe isn't completely out in left field.

Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 7:45 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Identifying inflammation correlated with autism does not automatically mean "autism is an inflammatory disease."

Tyri0n, you seem quick to adopt theories that propose that autism is highly treatable. While I am not saying these theories are wrong (they only just started the human trials to treat inflammation a few months ago, so it'll be several months before results are published), I am saying that it is often tempting to accept easy answers to complex problems.

As far as treating inflammation reducing autistic symptoms, I find that many things exacerbate my autistic behaviors, even when they are not directly related to autism, and that treating those symptoms alleviates the exacerbation. These things also exacerbate my ADHD, but that doesn't mean they're directly related to ADHD either. After all, my ADHD is much worse when I haven't had enough sleep because fatigue causes similar difficulties. This does not mean, however, that lack of sleep causes ADHD.

Verdandi, if your remarks are directed at me, I don't think it really matters what the exact mechanism between autism and inflammation is. What I do know is that if I can keep my inflammation under control, my autism gets better, though it certainly doesn't go away; it means I can deal with people better and I'm less susceptible to meltdowns and such. That's enough for me. My concerns are strictly practical and pragmatic: to deal with my AS as best I can.

Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 7:48 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Since I have all of the symptoms of AS (though tics and stimming only to minor degrees), I'm not sure what else it could be. It is also the case that I can relate to much of what is said around here. Having said this, I do want to keep an open mind. So, do you know what else it could be? If you do, I will be eternally grateful to you.

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 08 Jul 2013, 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Jul 2013, 8:01 pm

grahamguitarman wrote:

I've had rheumatism since childhood. But I don't believe for one moment that my Autism is a result of any inflammation, merely that inflammation can possibly exasperate my Autism, in the same way that wearing nylon will exaggerate my autism.

My consultant (who is an Autism specialist) tells me that the severity of Autism varies in direct correlation to your mood and the sensory input you have to deal with. Put an autistic person in a darkened room with minimal sensory input and no need for social interaction, and their symptoms will be minimal. Subject that same person to increasing levels of sensory and social stress, and their Autistic symptoms increase. Makes sense to me that any sensory discomfort from inflammation is going to set my Autism off.

But it doesn't automatically follow that inflammation causes the Autism. You might as well say that exposure to too much light in infancy causes Autism, since autistic problems increase with greater and more challenging light levels.

I do agree that Diet can have a big impact on your wellbeing, I personally will not tolerate any artificial foods in my diet if I can help it. That means no sweeteners (which I'm allergic to anyway) butter not margarine, real not processed meat, no artificial anything basically. A good diet helps with pretty much all of my health problems, including Rheumatism, Asthma, and general mental health. Feeling good in myself helps me to cope with my Autism, and reduces the sort of unwanted stimuli that will overload my brain. It doesn't however remove or in any way reduce my autism, no diet is going to do that.

I understand completely what you are talking about. Where I live at is almost completely devoid of any sensory triggers for me; it is so quiet there I can hear the blood rushing through my head as I write this. What's more, when my inflammation gets bad, even though there are no sensory triggers out here, my AS gets bad as well. Now, if I'm in an environment that overloads me, then it does make it that much worse. And when I can keep my inflammation under control, it makes it much easier to deal with distressing environments.

Again, I think my primary problem is in my gut, and up recently I thought I had a cast iron gut; I very rarely experienced any kind of digestive discomfort. It wasn't until I began developing IBS that I discovered this link. For me at least, my AS has a strong correlation to what goes on in my guts, pain or no pain.

I'm also on a modified anti-inflammatory diet, which I discovered several years ago helped me a lot. It helps too, but not as much as taking care of my gut.

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08 Jul 2013, 8:16 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

Well then what is to say you don't have inflammation issues as well as AS? All I'm saying is I've had allergies and digestive issues and helping those does not make my autism symptoms go away or lessen....some environments bring out more of the symptoms like sensory issues so avoiding those when possible helps from having worse symptoms. Also what about people with AS that don't experiance those physical problems or the ones that still have the same level of autism regardless of treating those.

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 08 Jul 2013, 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 8:19 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

I do have both. My point is that when one gets worse, they both get worse. That's all I know.

As far as my experience with noise and sensory issues goes, I would encourage you to read my response to Grahamguitarman, right above your post.

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08 Jul 2013, 8:36 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

I don't think the hygiene hypothesis or the inflammation theory (it is a scientific theory as distinct from a hypothesis like the hygiene hypothesis) necessarily say that autism is highly treatable. After all, inflammation is also found in MS, and MS is not yet treatable. Schizophrenia, too, is associated with inflammation, and the medications given basically make the patient unable to function.

Didn't you link a story in which mice or rats were treated with anti-inflammatories, which reduced their autistic behaviors? And that they're performing clinical trials to see how it works on human children?

Perhaps I should have said "offered the hope of possible treatments."

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08 Jul 2013, 9:20 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

As far as my experience with noise and sensory issues goes, I would encourage you to read my response to Grahamguitarman, right above your post.

As I said, I don't have digestive issues that correlate with autism....they make no difference in my symptoms, as for the sensory issues I am more sensative to my environment I don't get more sensative and less sensative based on how much digestive discomfort I had. ANd well if that is the cause of autism why do people still have autism when they get digestive issues treated?

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Thelibrarian
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08 Jul 2013, 9:20 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:

Verdandi, what you post is actually what I'm doing, though with diet. Diet for me actually works far better than steroids anyway.

Today is actually a bad day for me for inflammation. What my diet does, as well as some other things I do, is to reduce my inflammation, and hence autism significantly. Before I did what I'm doing now, on a day like today, I would've been home all day because being around people would make me want to do was run, and the noise and commotion would've made it ever worse. I would also develop a severe brain fog, which slowed down my thoughts because it was so painful, but I was still able to think perfectly clearly; I did some of my best thinking during these periods. And I could barely force myself to talk to others.

Now, though I can feel my autism more than usual today, I still dealt with people, and did so in a professional, courteous manner, though I wanted to be done with my interactions as quickly as possible. I even had a friend come by whom I hadn't seen in a while. Before the diet, this would have been a disaster.

Again, I'm certainly not convinced what I do will work for everybody, but I doubt I'm the only one with my symptoms either.

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08 Jul 2013, 11:14 pm

TheLibrarian, I am glad it works for you.

I'm not trying to say "this is absolutely not true." I am trying to be skeptical, not simply a naysayer.

I've just seen enough promises over time that I really have to see the empirical evidence before I am willing to fully accept it, but I am not going to say that it is absolutely not the case either.

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09 Jul 2013, 2:55 am

There does seem to be some evidence that ASD and digestive problems may have some kind of link. Not a causative link, but according to the NIMH website it is often reported that children with ASD have Gastro problems :

NIMH ASD Page

I myself have to take daily medication for Acid Reflux, and my Autistic son has ongoing continence problems. In fact it was the consultant treating my son for severe impaction who first suggested Autistism. When I asked what was causing my sons toilet problems, the consultant said that it was most likely psychological and that he was probably Autistic.

Again I don't think there is any causative link between Autism and tummy problems, but its not beyond reason to assume that such problems could be a common side issue of Autism for some (not all) Autistics.

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10 Jul 2013, 9:23 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

As far as my experience with noise and sensory issues goes, I would encourage you to read my response to Grahamguitarman, right above your post.

Sweetleaf, let me be clear: I am NOT saying I have some kind of cure for AS, autism, or anything else. I'm only talking about keeping to control it as much as possible.

I have better days and worse days. It's a matter of maximizing the good days and minimizing the bad ones.

As far as digestive issues go, I wasn't aware they had any connection to my autism, since up until the last few years, I had a cast iron gut. I've simply found that if I can get my digestive and allergy problems under control, my autism seems to get better. Again, it is correlation rather than causation, albeit a very strong correlation in my case.

Have you tried taking care of your gut to see if you can make your bad days a little better?

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10 Jul 2013, 9:26 am

Verdandi wrote:

Verdandi, again, I've seen all kinds of wild claims too that I'm highly skeptical of. I was skeptical of the anti-inflammatory approach myself before I tried it; results are the only thing that made a believer out of me. Nor am I saying what works for me will work for you, especially since what works for me is far from perfect. It's simply the best thing I've found.

My only reason for writing this is maybe my experience can help somebody else out. But, again, we're all a bit different.

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11 Jul 2013, 7:17 am

Thelibrarian wrote:

Been re-reading the posts.

I have never argued about the results, only the reasoning that leads you to them. I have never said you are wrong, just that it may be possible that there is another solution. I apologize if I have offended you, as it was not my intention. I am glad that you found something that works for you, but it is not going to work for everyone. Personally, I have found meditation to help me more than anything else, but I it won't help everyone (and I have personal doubts that it would actually help very many people in terms of symptom relief, but maybe could provide a little peace of mind at the end of the day).

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11 Jul 2013, 8:58 am

Thelibrarian wrote:

Have you tried taking care of your gut to see if you can make your bad days a little better?

Yes I have but more to get rid of it being in a state of discomfort....and it does not make any difference in my level of autism still have the same sensory issues, lack of being able to read/interpret react to body langauge and all that good stuff that comes with the AS. It also does not help my depression.

It makes me feel a bit better physically, my anxiety causes a lot of the discomfort so minimizing my anxiety can reduce the discomfort.

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