Here's what I find evil about socialization

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bumble
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30 Sep 2013, 6:36 am

wozeree wrote:
I don't think it really has anything to do with evolution although I guess it could. It has to do with group think/herd mentality, but like i said, it's different in humans than other animals. Evolution is about survival of the species, but group think is about survival of the group against all else.

I think humans are also kind of weird in that we do so many things that at least to me seem to go against propagation of the species. But that's a whole other topic! :D


The problem isn't evolution, the problem is civilisation and the belief systems it creates (or those which govern it).

If you (you being the generic you) want to change things you need to change what people believe. Good luck. People get personally attached to their beliefs and can become quite upset if you question them! They appear to see their beliefs as an extension of themselves. Question the belief, question the person! Tread carefully when undertaking such tasks...and be prepared to metaphorically have your head taken off. And this is where evolution does make an appearance...people devolve (ie go backwards through the evolutionary chart) and will snarl, growl and fling s**t at you.

Learn to duck or go do something else and leave them to believe what they want to.



qawer
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30 Sep 2013, 12:55 pm

marshall wrote:
Shikari wrote:
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Thanks Shikari, that's a very interesting article.

I see what they mean by cooperation being in theory the most optimal social construction. But in real life it seems like that's not exactly how things work out. People might cooperate, but only for selfish reasons, so the underlying force is not cooperation, but selfishness. It's not like people genuinely want to do well to others, just because they care about them, it's more like they want to do well to others because it eventually benefits themselves to do so. Selflessness is never truly appreciated. That's what I object to.

It doesn't pay off to do good deeds, because there are no good deeds only socially wrong actions. You should act in selfishness all the time, but that does not mean you should never help others and that you should never cooperate - but you should only do those things if they benefit yourself.

The main drive remains selfishness. It's difficult for me to accept.


I can understand where you are coming from, but out of curiosity what do consider the selfish reasons to be? There are people who genuinely wants to do well to other because they do care about them. They care a lot! Have you ever seen the movie "Pay It Forward"? It's about doing one act of kindness to three random strangers, and instead of them to something for them in return, they ask them to pay it forward and help three more random strangers with something. True selflessness is very much appreciated because we often don't expect it. Selflessness is appreciate by at least you (and you know that), and also by me. That's two people right there that you can say truly appreciate it, and there is a million more out there.


The problem is capitalism encourages passive selfishness. People are polite and civilized, but don't go out on a limb to help those who are struggling. If you have trouble finding work and have to apply for SSI/SSDI you're treated like you're a leach trying to scam the system. In general, nobody is going to help you financially if you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps or rely on family. Some people don't have family that cares. Many people have family that tell them they are losers. Mental barriers to survival aren't treated the same as physical barriers. The lucky ones who don't have trouble surviving don't like to own up to the fact that they aren't actually all that generous. They aren't interested in actually changing the system so people get the help they need. Instead people commit suicide every day. Maybe if those that were struggling to survive committed homicide rather than suicide society would wake up.


You're right Marshall. Capitalism is a part of the reason why it seldom pays off to help others. You're basically on your own. People might hold the door for you, but they aren't going to help you in any fundamental way, because that's a huge struggle with only mental benefits.

But it's not just because Capitalism is a wrong political system. All practical possible systems will have this flaw. It's hard to change this, because nature just favours the best survivors. It's really that fundament of life I find troublesome. Life should favour the most helpsome, kind and well-intended people.



Opi
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30 Sep 2013, 2:36 pm

as a point of interest, capitalism is an economic system, not a political one. same with communism or socialism.

there are some schools of thought that make an argument that capitalism leads inevitably to fascism and is incompatible with democracy. my personal belief is that once all excess resources are used up, we head straight into a feudal state.


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Mike1
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30 Sep 2013, 2:39 pm

grahamguitarman wrote:
This is probably going to upset a few people, but being selfish is one of the negative traits of Autism / Aspergers. I hate having it pointed out to me so I can see how it might upset some people, but we do tend to be self centred. This tends to make us view the world as being selfish because it's human nature to project our own personalities onto other people. We see an act of kindness and automatically assume there is a selfish reason for it, instead of accepting it for what it is. This doesn't mean we are incapable of being kind and giving, just that we tend to put ourselves at the centre of our little universe and everyone one else at the periphery. And every Aspie is of course different and unique, but it is unfortunately a recognised trait of Autism to be ego-centric.

I think ego-centricity is more of a psychological result of the experiences of someone with Asperger's than part of the disorder itself. Aspies tend to have fewer friends and interact a lot less with other people, so they generally haven't built up as much trust towards other people as most NTs have. As a result of social disadvantages, Aspies are also more likely to be more discontent with society as a whole than NTs are. People who are socially isolated also have a tendency to contemplate philosophical questions more than people who aren't. Lack of friends and social interaction, combined with discontentment with society, and tendency to contemplate philosophy, is really likely to lead to cynicism and distrust towards other people. People who are cynical and distrust other people generally aren't as likely to be as concerned with their well-being. I'm pretty cynical on the macro level, but I don't distrust my friends very much. I can be concerned with the well-being of other people, if I view them as deserving.



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30 Sep 2013, 2:42 pm

In the words of Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”



qawer
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30 Sep 2013, 4:09 pm

Mike1 wrote:
grahamguitarman wrote:
This is probably going to upset a few people, but being selfish is one of the negative traits of Autism / Aspergers. I hate having it pointed out to me so I can see how it might upset some people, but we do tend to be self centred. This tends to make us view the world as being selfish because it's human nature to project our own personalities onto other people. We see an act of kindness and automatically assume there is a selfish reason for it, instead of accepting it for what it is. This doesn't mean we are incapable of being kind and giving, just that we tend to put ourselves at the centre of our little universe and everyone one else at the periphery. And every Aspie is of course different and unique, but it is unfortunately a recognised trait of Autism to be ego-centric.

I think ego-centricity is more of a psychological result of the experiences of someone with Asperger's than part of the disorder itself. Aspies tend to have fewer friends and interact a lot less with other people, so they generally haven't built up as much trust towards other people as most NTs have. As a result of social disadvantages, Aspies are also more likely to be more discontent with society as a whole than NTs are. People who are socially isolated also have a tendency to contemplate philosophical questions more than people who aren't. Lack of friends and social interaction, combined with discontentment with society, and tendency to contemplate philosophy, is really likely to lead to cynicism and distrust towards other people. People who are cynical and distrust other people generally aren't as likely to be as concerned with their well-being. I'm pretty cynical on the macro level, but I don't distrust my friends very much. I can be concerned with the well-being of other people, if I view them as deserving.


Mike1, beautifully put, you are spot on!



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30 Sep 2013, 4:16 pm

kirayng wrote:
In the words of Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”


I've thought about that too.

Isn't being mentally healthy almost defined by being well adjusted to society, whether it is sick or not?

So if most people at for instance a work place think you should be socially mean, being mentally healthy is being socially mean. It's all a matter of adapting to survival.

And since people with AS are in minority, thinking like we do in that sense becomes mentally unhealthy. Also even if the AS makes you think the helpful, kind and truly generous people should be rewarded the most, the way I do.



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30 Sep 2013, 4:27 pm

I have thought a lot about how everything that was defined as evil by the Catholics/Christians has become trend. Being social to me is about using as many people as you can to get to where you want to go. When I am around other people my age who have tons of friends, they always shit-talk their "friends". I think to myself something like, "I am glad that I only have a few friends because if I were friends with these people they'd be shit-talking me and that's not really being friends." I think of Asperger's as an appropriate reaction to the BS of social-life in America cause it's really all a facade but logically you should be able to trust people but you can't and then when you try get screwed over. At least that's what has happened to me. I've tried making friends and they ended up being f****d up people. I feel like I'm polluting myself by having all these fake people look at me and think that we have something incommon just because of my interests or the way I dress. One of the first things I learned from getting involved in the social world is that just because someone dresses like you/has the same interests/likes the same music...doesn't mean that they think the same way as you do, or like the same things you do for the same reasons. Hell, they most likely don't know where any of their interests originated which is something I have always felt was important to know about the things you are interested in. But yes, it's all a game that gives you no real points.



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30 Sep 2013, 5:33 pm

Opi wrote:
as a point of interest, capitalism is an economic system, not a political one. same with communism or socialism.

there are some schools of thought that make an argument that capitalism leads inevitably to fascism and is incompatible with democracy. my personal belief is that once all excess resources are used up, we head straight into a feudal state.


I can deal with that, but I get to be a knight, not a lady! Love the armor, hate ruffles!



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30 Sep 2013, 5:36 pm

wozeree wrote:
Opi wrote:
as a point of interest, capitalism is an economic system, not a political one. same with communism or socialism.

there are some schools of thought that make an argument that capitalism leads inevitably to fascism and is incompatible with democracy. my personal belief is that once all excess resources are used up, we head straight into a feudal state.


I can deal with that, but I get to be a knight, not a lady! Love the armor, hate ruffles!


and i will be robin hood!

/ruffles off


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redrobin62
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30 Sep 2013, 5:48 pm

<--- Wants to be Robin Hood. Waaahhhh!



wozeree
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30 Sep 2013, 6:08 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
<--- Wants to be Robin Hood. Waaahhhh!



Robin Hood is amazing, you can be Red Robin Hood and Opi can be Robin Hood plain (unless she too has a color preference). :D



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30 Sep 2013, 8:17 pm

wozeree wrote:
redrobin62 wrote:
<--- Wants to be Robin Hood. Waaahhhh!



Robin Hood is amazing, you can be Red Robin Hood and Opi can be Robin Hood plain (unless she too has a color preference). :D


akshully... i like black...


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30 Sep 2013, 8:40 pm

Can I be Robin Hood Periwinkle with chartreuse polka dots? :D


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30 Sep 2013, 8:46 pm

skibum wrote:
Can I be Robin Hood Periwinkle with chartreuse polka dots? :D



YES, you can even wear ski boots!



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30 Sep 2013, 8:48 pm

wozeree wrote:
skibum wrote:
Can I be Robin Hood Periwinkle with chartreuse polka dots? :D



YES, you can even wear ski boots!
LOL!! ! :D


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