Threads Of Autism

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...could have easily have been said like...

Hmmm, Wind....(like the way these two sound together:-).....we must be on the same tape, as in my next message I was going to ask you to help me edit my material. You are obviously the person for that job, and I genuinely mean this......digressing, but....did you ever hear the words "We come like water and like wind we go..." (from The Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam)? When I was a young girl around your age this was my favorite line of poetry in the whole world.....

Yes, it was much harder to write it the way I did...took about twenty years of dedicated practice to learn this particular style, which is in no way to imply the same material could not have been put more concisely, especially since I probably have some kind of brain damage apart from my autism that is affecting my writing ability. This is why I need you as an editor. However, in this first editing experiment I think you may have edited out some very important concepts which were the gist of my entire message.

I said everyone is autistic in some kind of way. By this I mean people draw circles around themselves by selection of various kinds of information about how the world is, but often leaving out significant details and then 'live' stuck inside these various frameworks and begin to think/feel it is actually the whole world and get angry with other people or feel rejected or reject other people who have different kinds of circles. The people in one kind of circle are not able to comprehend the perceived significance of the arranged data of people in other kinds of circles, so a kind of autism, though not so overt.

It must be noted that simply perceiving that different people have different kinds of frameworks is not the solution for conflicts that arises around people having different kinds of frameworks, as the ultimate goal is some kind of action, even if it is merely self-protection, and sometimes different scenarios cannot be acted out in the same location. So it is about land, if not actual land, then psychological charted space, and potential action around that, and if such action is thwarted, there is perceived scarcity, which does make some kind of sense from the perspective that to express oneself by an action is to be, and to not be able to express oneself is not to be..

Imo to a person who is overtly autistic, to not speak is to speak, so to be. That is an act of self expression. When working with autistic children, I think many people probably do not realize this. On different levels of autism such as aspergers and around certain idea areas, to willfully not understand something can be an act of self expression, so a kind of statement to oneself that verifies being oneself...i think it could be called a double-bind or a knot, so a way needs to be found to make a bridge between oneself and other people. To not understand other people is obviously not the way to do it.

The theory of mind idea comes in here: In order to develop a more affective theory of mind, a person needs to want to look at his own theory of mind, to be interested in doing that. If such a person is not interested, then leave that person behind in terms of helping him to develop a more sophisticated theory of mind. Personally I would not even try to use such a person to get much of any kind of clarity across to others about theory of mind. It is just treading water and the current is moving the person doing that sideways...and it will take others with him....The best way may be to look at ones own way of processing data...and maybe share with others some kind of approaches around trying to do that....

If I'm understanding correctly, I believe you are saying that it is autistic to only understand reality from one's own point of view (and further that it is an example of lack of theory of mind/awareness of others' existence.) And that everyone does this and so then everyone is autistic. I tend to disagree that this is what defines autism. I think that there are more elements at play.

What other elements? And I am not really saying everyone is autistic when I say everyone is kind of autistic...maybe that was not so well phrased, though, especially in this context....

Lots, which I can't even begin to list right now as I'm in the tail end of a meltdown and to do so would upset me. I can't even define myself, never mind trying to define a syndrome. The whole theory of mind thing is tricky and tends to have me questing reality even in a good frame of mind.
One thing that I have found to be common among autistics is the difficulty in translating thoughts to spoken language.

I would not disagree that a lot of the neuromajority might have some Autistic traits. The problem is the phrase "Everybody is a little autistic"and similar phrases has been repeatedly used to invalidate Autistic peoples difficulties or to say if you just try harder you can be "normal". Because of that the idea has become a trigger mechanism for many Autistics.

This is the original statement, which I do not know if you even read:

littlebee wrote:
The point I was making is that I was saying I did this because I am autistic, and that probably really is why, but did not know if that in itself would be an appropriate explanation, as everyone does it to some degree, and if it is an explanation it would not be the complete explanation. And there are all kinds of implications to enquire into around this. You looked at it from one angle, but I am approaching more from the angle of brain function and various kinds of community organization or disorganization around that.

AsPartOfMe wrote:

Not a problem for me as I was not even talking about it from that angle. I think you might be making it into a problem in this particular instance, not to imply there is no validity in the point you are making.
The problem is the phrase "Everybody is a little autistic"and similar phrases has been repeatedly used to invalidate Autistic peoples difficulties or to say if you just try harder you can be "normal"

AsPartOfMe wrote:
Astute observation. yes, that is apparent with quite a few on WP. So do you think the solution would be to try not to become triggered by various phrases and instead observe and enquire into what is happening in oneself or rather to try to get other people not to say this kind of thing, even if it is in other contexts? Actually I have no evidence you are doing the latter in this instance and cannot recall if you have done so or not in some other communications I have had with you, though I recall getting frustrated.. Anyway, no one here seems to be triggered by it, and I am not even talking about it from this angle. I think the point you make is kind of interesting, though, even in this context. I will have to think about it some more.

I am triggered/offended by it. Whether there's a solution or not, I don't know and don't care. As ASPartOfMe said, it gives the impression that autism can be easily overcome and that it is only an amusing annoyance. It is patronizing.

Point acknowledged. What I was saying is only that people have certain similarities in the way I process data, such as even about autistics, for example.

I would never be "triggered/offended" by this, though I have been triggered by many other things, as if the people don't know any better, then it would make no sense to have that kind of a response:-) It would not be to my own benefit or anyone's, and let me make it very clear---I have been through horrible suffering because of my own autism and am very in tune with the deep suffering so may people here are going through. As far as being easy to overcome these kind of difficulties---in no way easy. And yes, when I have been triggered/offended in various situation, I did not care if there was a solution, either. In my case I was too caught up in my own identification. I do not know about you or other people, however.

How difficult is it to overcome autism? Next to impossible, imo, as I have written previously in this regard, but NOT impossible. I am intending to write on this subject in great and elaborate detail but not on this thread.

If you want to take this point out of the general context and mention to educate people, I can see doing that, I suppose, thoiugh in my opinion there are better ways to generate understanding of oneself by others. I think it would be better to understand oneself and why one is responding in such a way, though the other approach could be of some value, too.

A key path for me in understanding my own autism was and is to understand the way the human brain works in general and then begin to look at what my brain has done with this general way of functioning and try to understand why. And no, I do not think everyone is born with the same kind of brain, and I did not learn about this general way brains tend to function from reading books, but more from observing human beings functioning in relationship to each other and to myself doing that.

Unfortunate turn of phrase then.


I'm not sure if by overcome you mean no longer having autism, or to successfully mask the symptoms.

I tried masking the symptoms and it was too stressful, so now I don't bother much.

I could maybe have said it better, as already noted by me, though I'm not sure how, but not unfortunate. To quote one of my favorite doctors, the Seuss--
I feel that you're the one who turned it into a digression:-)

You used the word first. I was just using your terminology. What did you mean by it? By saying it's not that easy to overcome, you implied that it can be overcome. What did you mean by this?

You said you were having a meltdown and could not process certain idea material, and I hope it is better now, but perhaps this is making it difficult for you to understand me at this time. Personally I do not believe in masking symptoms, but rather transforming them, if possible, and for me it often has been possible, but only with super human effort, and by this I mean skillful means and not just trying over and over with no success and then ending up pounding my head on a wall (which I have never done literally, but plenty of times figuratively speaking)..

One thing you said about speech I can relate to, though.

A lot of my theory of autism is based on this, and I think the speech aspect pertains to all kinds of autism, including aspergers,.

Well, for me, overcoming would be being able to function without having to rely on disability and to have friends. But everyone's challenges and goals are different.

I am curious as to how you have transformed your symptoms. I find that autistic symptoms can sometimes be useful.

I would like to write more about this some other time and place. Also, I am not sure I like the word symptoms....I never think in those terms about autism....and I never think I or anyone else have autism....as I recall, you used this wording previously....I do not think it is something a person has, but rather something a person is. One thing, I developed mild tourettes, not a tick, but shouting out loud at certain times the last few years just before falling asleep---this came after years of doing a lot of work on myself to change other things, and also started making somewhat recently on some occasion some repetitive hand movements....maybe I was always doing it but never noticed...but I think not, and the tourettes in increasing, though still mild...now sometimes I shout out in public when I have an incredible insight---like I might yell out really loud "wow!" This happens only with a big insight... or when there is some kind of immediate discrepancy I cannot completely process, I yell out "sh*t!" but, still, it was worth it, as the payoff I have gotten is huge and this was a small price to pay as these are minor things....I will write on this some other time....I made a message about a month ago but then did not post it.....

As far as you saying autistic symptoms can sometimes be useful....if you are saying they serve a function, then I would not look at them as symptoms, exactly...though I suppose any kind of dysfunctional behavior is serving some kind of function on some level....so a symptom could be useful, but again, if it is functional, am not sure I would look at it as a symptom....what is really not useful to me is categorizing all of this behavior under the broad category of autism and then saying oneself is born this way.....see now I just now stopped writing and started making this hand movement, circling my right thumb around and around clockwise on my left palm palm because this last sentence seems to contradict what I just wrote, but I am too tired to sort it our now...

The solution is to use wording that are not triggers. If you do this readers might focus on the message you are trying to send rather then the negative emotions triggered.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 24 Mar 2014, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So the solution to not getting triggered into experiencing negative emotions by a really quite innocuous comment is to try to get other people not to trigger you and to set up a sterile environment where people need to watch the subtle nuances of every word they say to the extent that they are afraid to say much of anything with idea content in the fear that it will trigger you? Sorry, I don't buy that.Perhaps the person being triggered should focus on the whole message being sent and just feel whatever is being triggered in himself by a particular phrase without being distracted from the general context. This does not mean to suppress these negative feelings and shove them under, as that could make a person physically sick.

You pirouetted off my comment to make a point, which I acknowledged as of value, though imo, kind of off topic for this thread, though maybe not, and I can see why you may have made it.. Yes, saying everyone is kind of autistic in some way could be perceived, imo if stretched and interpreted from a particular angle, as being discounting to autistic people because it could be read to mean that they could be like everyone else if they just try However there is a problem with that, as the implication is that people who are not overtly autistic could also be behaving differently if they just try, but what I was talking about--being stuck in a box because of ones own limited thinking and altering and omission of data, is not so easy to change, as the person generally does not even know he is doing it, be he overtly autistic or just a so-called nt behaving kind of autistic. Presumably it is not of an advantage to oneself or anyone to go though ones life being constantly triggered unto having various unpleasant feelings, and we klnow all kinds of people do this, whether they are autistic or not.The only way to change ones behavior is to first see that one is behaving in a certain way that is counter productive and and accept responsibility for it.

For instance, pounding ones head on the wall is basically counter productive. When a child is doing this, he may be triggered into this response by the behavior of other people. This is NOT to imply that other people may not be doing some inappropriate behavior. Or the child may have unrealistic expectations...or both, but pounding his head on the wall is ultimately not in his best interest and most children who do this, autistic or otherwise, see this and grow out of it, but if they keep looking at others people's behavior only, this does not give an opportunity to change their own behavior. I think, as Ann mentioned, to some degree it may be a theory of mind thing.

Secondly, I had no idea, literally NONE, that anyone would react to that extremely mild passing comment about human brain function and at every turn of the phrase on this system am already trying to monitor my own speech as some people are super sensitive and imo reading all kinds of things into stuff that is really quite benign, such as this very simple comment in a particular context about human brain function. It took me a long time to realize how this is related to framing. An amazing thing I just recently understood by participating on another thread is that people can easily grasp subtle nuances that pertain to their own way of framing or which they perceive will break down their own way of framing, so there is a form of 'literalism' that can still shift and slant material in order to grasp or not grasp various nuances. This is really a major realization for me and gives me plenty to think about. An extremely interesting idea has just occurred to me to investigate how to use this principle of what could even be called biophysics as a tool. So thanks, and this is heartfelt.