"Nerd syndrome" - a mild PDD, misnamed as (S-)NLD

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I wonder what dr. Thomas Szasz would think of this?

For me "noverbal learning disability" which affects not only cogntive area, but also social, emotional, executive, sensory is a serious and complex developmental disability, pervasive developmental disorder. It is a form of Asperger syndrome to me. AS for me is not something which has to be related to childhood autism.

all I know, is that they thought I was mentally ret*d when I was a little kid.

I might be more normal as a little kid than when I was older...

it's not that I was more or less normal at any given age, but that as I grew older I didn't care as much what other people thought. I didn't care much what they thought when I was a little kid either but for a painful 20 year period between about 10 and 30 I did care too daggone much, and it didn't do me any good at all, so the time when I stopped caring couldn't have come soon enough.

I do not remember first years of my life.

^^^
maybe that is a blessing in disguise.

I think that core problems in true NLD are in visual, spatial and maybe motoric area.

Core problems in "hyperlogic autisticity" are in social, emotional and maybe also in executive areas. HA is a pervasive developmental difference. Sensory issues in it may tend to be milder than in ASDs from "kanneric" spectrum. It is also rather less rigid. Technical talents may appear to be rarer and probably are. It may be not related to Kanner's disorder at all. Customs, routines, rituals in it may be not present or be of other type than in classical ASD. HA probably tends to have more developed verbal skills than nonverbal. It gives marked symptoms before school age, but the development in first three years of life may be (relatively) normal.

I have "bookish" example of "nerd syndrome" because I have not most characteristic traits of "Kanner's spectrum" autism. But I still have social, emotional, executive, cognitive and sensory anomalies, which looks "Aspergian". It is definately a PDD for me, not (just) a (nonverbal) learning disorder. I had also perinatal and other issues in my childhood. I think that my disorder is etiologically rather not related to childhood autism. I was diagnosed with AS quite easily when I was about 17 years old.

I may think about myself as a very "nerdy" person. I have scholastic talent. I like to write and going to school might be pleasant for me.

In Polish dictionary (bab.la) the word "nerd" has worse meanings (głupek, nudziarz, idiota, głąb, dureń, gamoń, nieudacznik, palant, kujon, spec - most of them mean something like "inept" or "stupid" person) than "geek" (nudziarz, dziwak, palant, maniak komputerowy - first means (something like) boring person, second - weird, odd one, third - inept or stupid one, fourth - someone who is obsessed about computers). "Geek syndrome" is sometimes used as a nickname of AS. "Geek syndrome" may be associated in my mind with a person with relatively mild classic ASD, who has (quite) good abilities in IT area, is non-verbal thinker (pattern and visual), has poor central coherence, may be too literal and often have marked sensory issues, but is relatively high-functioning, may have own family, may easily get driving licence and often has above-average intelligence.

"Nerd syndrome" would be more similar to me and is in general even a worse type of PDD. It may be associated with infancy health issues, but may also have genetic factor. It has generally milder sensory issues. It may be often "oververbal autisticity disorder". It has normal speech development and children with it may appear to be "little professors". It has poor social skills, serious dyssemia. Social needs and feelings may be idiosyncratic or (and) limited. It can give scholastic talent, especially to remembering simple verbal material and simple rules. It may often limit ability to use visual thinking practically. People with it would be rather poor in typically technical areas, such as repairing. They may be hyperactive, hyperkinetic, present stims and tics. Attention and concentration deficit disorders may be quite common. Verbal abilities appear to be very important strength. They often may like reading really much. Their interests may be less "specialised" and "restricted", but also can be atypical and really strong. Emotional immaturity and sensitivity may be marked. Clumsiness appears to be really common. Socio-emotional problems are the most apparent, visual-spatial deficits may be "secondary" problems. NLD may be a symptom of it, but not the name of the entire disorder.

^^^^
I think I have some of that second paragraph's worth of stuff.

There are many children with NLD who present primarily with social skills problems and difficulties with interpersonal interactions.

These may manifest as:
- problems making or keeping friends;
- inappropriate social behaviours (e.g., "weird" behaviour in the classroom, unsuitable conversation, etc.);
- lack of understanding of personal space, boundary and privacy issues; difficulty maintaining social conversation (e.g., use of adult jargon with other children, inability to take turns in conversation, etc.);
- "loner" personality;
- fixation on certain topics or interests out of the normal range for their age group, and so on.

Unless their behaviours are disruptive in the classroom, they are more commonly referred by concerned parents than by their teachers.

These children are frequently being diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, particularly if they are not showing any obvious history of early language difficulties.

It is felt to be very important to examine these children's cognitive profiles very carefully in order to distinguish S-NLD children from those who are more autistic-like, and/or from those whose social problems stem from environmental factors, such as inappropriate or inconsistent parenting, chaotic family background, deprivation, or other related social or behavioural factors.

For me it is a pervasive developmental disorder, not (just) a learning problem! I may name it eponymically as "Mamen syndrome" (MS) which was named as "social NLD" in M. Mamen's book. But this name is not more appropiate than "autistic psychopathy" given to AS by Hans Asperger.

("Classic") AS looks more like "geek syndrome" ("specialised" ones, more "(classically) autistic-like"), MS may be (more like) "nerd syndrome" ("very boring", more "versatile" ones).

"Mamen syndrome" would be classified by me in PDD category, wich is more serious than LD category, "autistic psychopathy" is also claasified now as a PDD not as a personality disorder.

Some analogies between Asperger syndrome and Mamen syndrome:

AS:
- name given by "founder": "autistic psychopathy",
- nickname: "geek syndrome",
- now classified as PDD;

MS:
- name given by "founder": "social NLD (nonverbal learning disability/disorder)",
- nickname: "nerd syndrome",
- should be not classified as LD, but as PDD (other sort of autistic spectrum for me, may be not related to Kanner's disorder at all)

Here is something about "social-emotional learning disability/disorder" (SELD):

http://www.yellowbrickprogram.com/Articles/NLDandAspergersDisorderP7.html

few years later Voeller (1997) noted that "the social deficits seen in SELD can be dissociated from the neuropsychological and academic deficits seen in nonverbal learning disability A child can have nonverbal learning disability without the array of social deficits and the child with SELD can be quite competent in math and lack the visuoperceptual deficits that characterize nonverbal learning disability" (p. 796).

I am quite competent in math and can read maps, graphs, clocks etc. But my verbal skills are rather more developed than nonverbal. "Spectrum of childhood autism" does not fit me so much although I have diagnosis of AS.

http://www.yellowbrickprogram.com/Articles/NLDandAspergersDisorderP4.html

At the level of reciprocal social interaction, as we have seen, children with NLDs are capable of responding to, and interacting with, others at both the cognitive and affective levels. They are capable of sustaining a meaningful dialogue with others; they can appreciate another persons perspective; and they can engage in conversations that indicate an awareness of others as separate and independent beings. It is my clinical impression that most children with Asperger’s disorder do not function at this level of complexity (see also Klin, 2004).

Finally, in the domain of the reception, expression, and processing of emotions, some sharp differences exist with regard to how the children feel about themselves and how they feel about others. In this domain the impairments of children with NLD are far less severe than those of children with Asperger's disorder. In contrast to children with NLDs, the capacity to understand the meanings of some emotional communications seems much more limited in children with Asperger's disorder, as is their ability to communicate about their feeling states.

I do not like this terminology. For me "autism" should be rather psychological "value". It should not be about lack of empathy, thory of mind, central coherence. I may associate these deficits with something which can be names as "developmental rigid autism (spectrum)".

http://www.yellowbrickprogram.com/Articles/NLDandAspergersDisorderP5.html

"Asperger's" described in this article is for me a disorder which belongs to "developmental rigid autism spectrum" and I think that tis disorder is a form of atypical ("rigid") autism (F84.1), not F84.5, which position in ICD-10 may suggest lack of common etiology for F84.0 and F84.1 and F84.5. For me F84.5 should be associated with "NLD profile" ("hyperlogism"), not with childhood autism. It may be irritating when people name "yperlogism" as a learning disorder, not as a pervasive developmental disorder.

http://dev.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=271203#p6501352

"Nerd syndromes", which are "postulated" by me in this topic, rather something would be categoried as "NLD" with predominant deficiency in social perception described here (http://simonbaruchcurriculum.pbworks.com/f/Non-Verbal%20Learning%20Disabilities.pdf) or "social NVLD" described here (http://non-vld.wikispaces.com/NVLD+Subtypes?responseToken=953bc7d8e74d7e338b7875f8ca8df6c9), not like autism spectrum disorder. They does not have to (and even should not) have lack of theory of mind, weak central coherence, large problems with recognising people and (or) faces, serious sensory problems, strong need of sameness. They probably often will have NLD profile (verbal skills better developed than visual-spatial ones). "Nerd syndromes" appear not to belong to one spectrum with childhood autism. Some people with ASD may be called "nerds" by someone or even call themselves as "nerds", but my "nerd syndromes" are something other - they tend to give good scholastic abilities due to good rote memory skills (but no photographic memory in "nerd syndrome", people with them would be rather verbal thinkers) and often good general intelligence (at least verbal one). "Nerd syndromes" may be "phenotypes" caused by different factors. They cause marked socio-emotional problems in early childhood.

I think that they are real "F84.5" from ICD-10 (position of F84.5 may suggest lack of etiological relationship between F84.5 and childhood autism (F84.0) and atypical autism (F84.1)). So "F84.5" should be not related to autistic spectrum. It is different sort of "PDD" or "autisticity" for me, not a "specific developmental disorder". Some people with ASD may function better than many individuals with "nerd syndromes". "Nerd syndromes" may appear to have other, "strange", maybe even "exceptional" mentality ("obsessive", immature, "self-absorbed", "hyperactive" (which does not exclude sluggishness), maybe often with limited and (or) idiosyncratic social needs since childhood etc.). So they may often have different emotionality and needs than neurotypical people. "Different" mentality with lack of many features typical for spectrum of childhood autism may be even more important feature of them than "hyperlogism" (good verbal sklls with poorer visual-spatial-motor ones).

So three features (starting to be present in childhood) of "nerd syndromes" are:

1. "Odd", "strange" mentality (limited and (or) idiosyncratic social needs, "obsessive", immature, "self-absorbed", "hyperactive" (which does not exclude sluggishness))
2. Hyperlogism (good verbal skills, poorer visual-spatial-motor ones, dominance verbal thinking style, no eidetic memory)
3. Lack of traits typical to childhood autism (like lack of theory of mind, weak central coherence, large problems with recognising people and (or) faces, serious sensory problems, strong need of sameness)

Someone wrote in http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211746&start=15#p5422143:

NLD is typically diagnosed as Learning Disorder -NOS. NLD alone is not an autistic disorder and is quite distinct from one. In fact, most people with mild cases of NLD learn normal social skills just fine and easily pass for normal. You have tons of socially normal people who are bad drivers and get lost and are klutzy. These have NLD.

HOWEVER, severe NLD is more than just a learning disability. The criteria for Asperger's Syndrome or PDD-NOS (or Autistic Disorder under the DSM V) frequently capture the severe cases of NLD.

So is NLD itself an autistic disorder?

No. But NLD often shows up as one due to the fact that the ASD diagnostic criteria do not inquire into cause.

I have a 54-point gap between my verbal and nonverbal abilities, which is clearly in the high range, though this has likely been cut in half through my vision therapy program. Mine clearly shows up as Asperger's Syndrome, and I fully meet the criteria for Asperger's Syndrome even though I believe all I have is NLD.

I have (or had as a child) difficulties with social communication and prosody, difficulties forming relationships (still bad), sensory issues, and obsessive interests and rituals. That gives me a diagnosis of Asperger's Disorder even though I only have NLD.

I think that the person who wrote it has something more that just a learning disablity. I have similar situaton (although I had less problems with learning). "Severe NLD" described above is for me a form of autism and (or) PDD which appears to be distinct from Kanner's syndrome and it is probably that it is not related to it. It is characterised by serious social ineptitude and obsessiveness, atypical pattern of activities and "not normal" emotionality. I think that learning problems have not to be so serious in this disorder. I suppose that people with it often have above average verbal skills (like early speech development, linguistic talents), but their nonverbal learning abilities have not to be in learning disability range. They lso should have more or less clumsiness. This "severe NLD" may be "truer" sort of Asperger's, not a milder disorder from "kanneric" spectrum.

For me words such as "Aspie", "Aspergian" should refer to heterogenous spectrum which include complex psycho(neuro)developmental differences such as for example "NVLD" and ASD which are characterised mainly by social inadequacy and peculiarity. An Aspie can have a disorder which is not related to "typical" autism (Kanner's syndrome) at all. I might even say that "more classical" Aspie is rather "NVLDish" than "autistic"...